If winning is regime change, then we won. If you're referring to winning as babysitting Iraq for the next forty years with a large military presence then you may be sorely disappointed to find that few Americans are interested in the prospect of our guys being a big fat bullseye in the middle of the desert until Iraqis are dragged, kicking and screaming, into becoming a contemporary secular democracy that economically plays well with others.

Why is it ok for us to babysit Germany and Japan after WWII for 60 years but not ok to babysit Iraq? Germany took a long time to get in line but you expect a country like Iraq who has never known self rule in the lifetime of its citizens to stand up and become a fully operating nation in a matter of a few years. Not even in America did that happen.

No Bush got his father to get him out of Vietnam and then did not fulfill the requirements in the Guard when he refused to take a REQUIRED Physical and attend drills. Then his father used his contacts get George an Honorable Early discharge the he DID NOT DESERVE!

Col, how many times are you going to say the same thing over and over.  We have already showed you how you can't back this up.  Dan Rather couldn't prove it, neither can you.  Bush served, get over it.

We have not been attacked because we have strengthened our efforts to stop attacks. We know that there have been attempts in fact Bush as told us that. We have added to the number of our enemies that would be willing to attack us which makes us LESS SAFE!

How do come up with that?  You are one who complains that Bush isn't doing enough to protect the country, now you come up with this? 

It's the same thing over and over with you col.  We fight the enemy, they get angry.....SO WHAT?  I bet people with your line of thought would rather bow down and not fight the islamic terrorists just so we don't "make them mad". 

KdGergo wrote: And don't forget, there is no American living now who experienced what a real war can mean in terms of economic disruption. You were never ever bombed on your own soil. And I read that lots of young Americans are very obese. Obese people don't make good soldiers.

So the 8 people that died in 1998 when the world trade center was bombed don't count? The 3000 people that died on September 11 2001 were not the victoms of an attack on our soil? I know what you mean, the last war fought on our soil was over a hundred years ago, but keep in mind America has tried very hard as a nation to keep that sort of thing outside our borders, when it happens it is a bitter pill to swallow.

You need to stop reading what propaganda that is out there about America it is faulty. The new rules for obesity means I am obese. I am 6 feet tall and weigh 225 pounds that makes me obese by our standards. It was the same weight I had 20 years ago when I was in the Marines. Some idiot thinks that thin is in so they changed the rules for determining obesity. It is crap like this that makes people around the world think we are weak. Big mistake.

Col, how many times are you going to say the same thing over and over. We have already showed you how you can't back this up. Dan Rather couldn't prove it, neither can you. Bush served, get over it.

You know ID, you may be the new Don Quixote. You continue to joust with that puff of air that is called Col Klink, when you know that there is nothing behind that curtain! He is the clown that seeing the wizard, instead of asking for his brain, ran away!

Also, I am not condemning you for never having the "pleasure". Simply somehow I feel Americans are not as used to wasted lives like Europeans are.. Alas, we have a thousands years' tradition of killing each other..

--kdgergo

So then, we're wrong for having avoided all the pitfalls and problems and bloody conflicts that plagued Europe for all those centuries and generations, and, in so doing, succeeding quite well beyond and far above all expectations.
Yeah...we're definitely nobody to tell anybody ANYTHING! Shame on us for our common sense and forebearance. We should have been more like you, and spent years and years and years mired in in meaningless, tribal slaughter and intrigue. Maybe then we'd have the right to be so arrogant?

Sometimes text doesn't do justice to tone, so.....I'm being sarcastic, if you can't tell.

And you know this traumas I mentioned somehow live longer than the person who experienced it. They are burned in the memories of people, they are living in the mouths of your parents and grandparents. It is something which is not forgotten easily, it builds into the national memory and character. America lacks this. You can be glad for this reason, but in war this is rather a disadvantage.

--kdgergo

I understand this, but my point is this, for example:

That my parents and grandparents lived through the Great Depression and the War...I can all hear the stories and appreciate what they went through, learned and experienced. Hpowever, it would be morally wrong for me to claim some greater right to wear the experience as some kind of badge of honor when I, myself, did not experience it firsthand.
Not to criticize too sharply, mind you, but you have no right to say that you have some knowledge or experience of that particular war that I do not, when your experience of it is the same as mine...second hand, passed on from your elders.

My reply to nr30 is another topic. Most Americans doesn't know much about world history. Your history-teaching is centered on you, which can be good from a point of view, but -as a symptom of lack of knowledge- makes many American people think losing some 3000 troops is much. Which is (at least I think so) not much. In the context of the long and bloody wars fought especially in Europe, it is not a quantity.

---kdgergo

I agree with this; Americans have always been forward-thinking and moving with an eye on the future. This is often at the expense of our past, which is wrong. I remember growing up in my hometown, Wheeling, West Virginia, in the 70s....everything was "progress"....tear down those old buildings and houses....there's a future to build! A highway coming through! Knock'em down! Make way!
The school I attended from Kindergarten-3rd grade, Webster Elementary, was built in 1889. It was beautiful; 3 floors, it looked like a Gothic castle. To that time, it was biggest school built in the state. It closed in 1976. I see pictures of it now, and think how sad it is that they tore it down to make way for on and offramps for Interstate 470.

Then came the harder times in the 80s....the mills started laying off, factories shutting down....the Ohio Valley dried up, and there was nothing to fall back on...except our history.
Luckily, Wheeling had a healthy, visionary Historical Society that had managed to save much of the city's architectural history (they tried to save Webster, but it needed lots of work, so they failed), and worked on the area's importance to the nation's past. The city started to focus on that. They built on it, and industry is starting to come back, now that the area is more lively, thanks to the tourist trade.
I loved history in school, and still love to read it. I admit that my knowledge of it is not near as extensive as I, and some here on JU, would like, but I can hold my own pretty well in many areas.

You know ID, you may be the new Don Quixote. You continue to joust with that puff of air that is called Col Klink, when you know that there is nothing behind that curtain! He is the clown that seeing the wizard, instead of asking for his brain, ran away!

You are right.  I don't understand how someone can be so obsessed with another person.

Some elements of Islam want all to convert. Others just want the West to stay out of their countries. They also react to the one sided way the U.S. deals with Israel.

Col,

America is one sided for a very simple reason. There are only two sides. Help Israel survive being surrounde by nations that what them dead or kill all the jews. Hiter tried the last one and that did not seem to sit with the world so they gave the Jews their nation back. Remenber that pesky UN mandate in 1948? Sort of the worlds way of saying sorry we let Hitler loose on you and the rest of the world.

It may be time to return to making military service a REQUIREMENT! It is TOO easy for political leaders send someone else children into harms way.

Hey, not so bright person! Over here in the bushes. We have an all volunteer military. That means there are enough people in the nation to fill the military needs. Why do we need to return to a draft? Is it because the peace movement can't get enough disgruntal service men to prove that war is bad? But it would be so much easier to get the hate going if we force people into service. The draft is for national emergencies like WWII We don't need a draft.

We have not been attacked because we have strengthened our efforts to stop attacks. We know that there have been attempts in fact Bush as told us that. We have added to the number of our enemies that would be willing to attack us which makes us LESS SAFE!

ok, so we have had hundreds of attempts to kill Americans in America and all have been stopped so Mr. Bush is a failure because we have gone five years without another attack. Would he be a success in your mind if we were attacked again?

read the statements by Pelosi, Murtha, Kennedy

please don't insult me (at very least), anyone else who's taken time to read your original article or even yourself by attempting to change the subject.

in the article you wrote--which inspired this thread--you claimed to be disturbed by:

certain people, including the ones just elected to power who seem content and even happy about the possibility of losing in Iraq and the entire war on terror

in reply #37, i challenged you to provide evidence to support your claim by providing direct quotes attributed to specific persons. instead, in your reply #40, you expanded the field to include congressional democrats.


i subsequently widened my challenge in reply #45 to permit you to include any elected official publicly expressing anything close to contentment or happiness regarding the disastrous state of affairs in iraq and you name three honorable members of the united states congress all of whom have served these united states for a number of years; none of whom deserve your despicable slurs.

so much for bearing false witness against others.

hopefully the rest of this community will give serious consideration to your lack of respect for truth when evaluating the verscity of all your other statements.

First off, holy snikes batman ~ what the hell lit the fire?

Now,

Then why do you support the Congressional betrayal of them... is EXACTLY what pulling out before victory is. Congress betrayed our troops in Vietnam... sadly, now there are Vietnam vets in congress just itching for their turn to do some betraying of their own. The enemy knows one thing full well, and that is, "You don't defeat the U.S. military on the battlefield, you defeat them on the floor of the House and Senate." There are too many in Congress (and in America) who are willing to help the terrorists attain their goal.

This is where I disagree. They (the soldiers fighting in iraq) did their duty, under the impression that we were in Iraq for WMDs. Granted, we've found bits here and there of ricin-mustard gas, etc... However, the impression that Bush gave everyone, was false. Did he lie? I don't know.

I agree with you in a way, that the best way for the terrorists to defeat us is psychologically. (There, see, it goes back to ideals/beliefs...)

There is a point in any conflict, where you need to step back/pull out and rethink your plans. There is nothing wrong with that.

We're losing, plain and simple Ted. If we were winning, there wouldn't be the countless deaths, both civilian and military.

i really have a difficult time determining which one--you or island dog--possesses the most most simplistic puerile world view. the fact that you both beat lucas outta the running oughta be a wakeup call for the both of you.

Hey now, I'm the king!

Wanting to immediately pull out of Iraq in the middle of a "war" right there alone shows they (meaning democrats who propose this) seem content on losing.  How many democrats have you seen on TV saying we are losing, have lost, or will never win, so we might as well leave?  Does that sound like someone content on losing.....yes! 

You are trying to change the topic by wanting me to post a quote of a democrat jumping up and down with balloons hoping the U.S. will lose.  It's probably easier to find a quote like that than finding one of a democrat praising what our military has ACCOMPLISHED in Iraq.  They can't even find an American soldier to put on the DNC home page.

 

We're losing, plain and simple Ted. If we were winning, there wouldn't be the countless deaths, both civilian and military.

If that were true then war is lost by all comers on the first day.  The bacteria is losing this war because they have never once done anything to help the people of Iraq.  Any loser can kill, but we have built up that nation, not just killed people.

The incompetent press makes sure you don't realize that.  For that I spit on them all... there is not ONE among them worthy of being near even the worst US soldier.

The incompetent press makes sure you don't realize that. For that I spit on them all... there is not ONE among them worthy of being near even the worst US soldier.

This war has shown the media in the U.S. for what is is.  The media in this country makes you think the entire country is fighting and falling apart. 

As long as America won't meet its match, it will be unable to conduct a successful war because these political elements and the media. Pulling out because of some 3000 losses is a major weakness. It is called major defeat. It also raises doubt what kind of morale this country has. If losing 3000 troops is a serious loss, what will happen in a real war? And don't forget, there is no American living now who experienced what a real war can mean in terms of economic disruption. You were never ever bombed on your own soil. And I read that lots of young Americans are very obese. Obese people don't make good soldiers.

That's because there is NO match for the US! Name just one government that the US could not destroy totally if it so chose to.

No Bush got his father to get him out of Vietnam and then did not fulfill the requirements in the Guard when he refused to take a REQUIRED Physical and attend drills. Then his father used his contacts get George an Honorable Early discharge the he DID NOT DESERVE! It may be time to return to making military service a REQUIREMENT! It is TOO easy for political leaders send someone else children into harms way. We have not been attacked because we have strengthened our efforts to stop attacks. We know that there have been attempts in fact Bush as told us that. We have added to the number of our enemies that would be willing to attack us which makes us LESS SAFE!

Know what? I've said this before, and I'll say it again! Maybe it'll sink in. YOU SIR, ARE A MORON!

There is NO such thing as the War on Terror. Terror is a tactic in war. We are in a war with factions of the Moslems all over the world. What we have done in Iraq and how we have allowed the Israeli/Palestine issue to fester, how we allowed Lebanon to be destroyed over two Israeli soldiers being captured and our presence in the Middle East to protect access to oil are what is behind the hate that is the driving force in the Moslem World toward the U.S. We had a case to enter Afghanistan after 9/11. There was no such justification to invade Iraq. Now we have uncorked the sectarian violence that has existed in Iraq for many years and have allowed foreign groups like al Qaeda to operate in Iraq. The only way to regain control in Iraq would be to send in a massive military force and accept large numbers of casualties on all sides to reestablish security. If we had sent the 500,000 troops when Saddam fell and stopped any organization of both internal and external factions, we might have been able to turn over a stable Iraq to the newly elected Iraqi government. Now that will not happen and Bush kids himself if he believes that stability will be established by our 150,000 troops in Iraq. In the mean time, Afghanistan is getting worse by the day because we NEVER finished the job in that country! There is not a single element of the Bush Foreign policy that has produced anything but a disaster- North Korea, China, Russia and South and Central America as well as the Greater Moslem World. this is as coherent and accurate assessment of the bush legacy as i've yet seen. col gene hardly seems content or happy about the situation. if anything he seems not only frustrated by angered by the way this administration has failed us and the world by insisting down is up, wrong is right and wishes produce results. how much worse do things have to become before you finally see the goddamn light?

well put col and king. the neoconservatives want to spew the rhetoric that those of us opposed to the war are "happy" about their mismanagement and incompetence and the deaths of our fellow citizens that are being put in harms way to protect that rhetoric. quite the opposite is true. we are disgusted, upset, embarrassed for our leaders and it pains us to see what is happening out there. i don't think they understand how much we really wish we would have been proven wrong. we wish there would have been WMD's and nuclear programs. we wish they would have fought a war that they called "the battle of our age" like it actually was instead of sending in just enough force to lose and be humiliated as baghdad bob predicted. we wish they would have engaged the international community and worked at home with all of us to win this war instead of doing it all in their lil "inner circle" where dissent is not even considered.

i stayed silent on my opposition to this war and didn't write on it for almost 2 years (summer of 04 thru early 06) because i wanted them to be successful despite what i thought , felt and knew. this administration was given every chance in the world to get it right over there and ignored everyone who didn't pat them on the back and tell em "heck of a job, bushie!" now it is abundantly clear that these guys don't know what they are doing outside of trying to control media and marketing their messages thru thinly veiled propoganda.

al sadr just walked out on the Iraq goverment today. so bush is meeting with a lame duck leader that can't do anything to improve the situation. that situation is so bad that the iraqi prime minister can't set foot in this country , because everyone will abandon him. and bush can't set foot in Iraq because it is so horrible there.

wake up and smell the coffee. this isn't about liking or hating george bush. this has to do with the future of our nation. a future that is being pissed away by some overly prideful neoconservatives who can't admit they were just plain wrong.

I don't see any terrorists in the streets col. It seems they are all overseas fighting the infidels.

the fact that you or i don't see them here is the real danger. and the reason they are not attacking here is because they don't have to. the 2 world trade center attacks were 8 years apart. these people are patient. as long as we are draining our economy in Iraq, they have no reason to attack here, except to further fuel the fire that is burning fiercely for them.

but according to the nsa wiretapping program, there are lots of terrorists here in our country. and they are just sitting back and watching us make fools of ourselves thinking we can spread freedom and democracy with bullets and bombs.

wake up and smell the coffee. this isn't about liking or hating george bush. this has to do with the future of our nation. a future that is being pissed away by some overly prideful neoconservatives who can't admit they were just plain wrong.

Of course it has to do with hating Bush.  Democrats want the White House back, and they will do whatever they can to get it.  Promoting a failure in Iraq will help them achieve that goal.  The democrats said for years Saddam was a threat, that he had WMD's, and that he should be removed.  So keep using the rhetoric of "neoconservatives" when they far left loons were there voting for the war also.

the fact that you or i don't see them here is the real danger. and the reason they are not attacking here is because they don't have to. the 2 world trade center attacks were 8 years apart. these people are patient. as long as we are draining our economy in Iraq, they have no reason to attack here, except to further fuel the fire that is burning fiercely for them.

No, the real danger in America is political correctness.  The real danger is having lawmakers worry more about the rights of terrorists than the citizens of the U.S.  I don't know why you bring up the NSA wiretapping, oh I forgot, far left talking points must be included somewhere in here.

If that were true then war is lost by all comers on the first day. The bacteria is losing this war because they have never once done anything to help the people of Iraq. Any loser can kill, but we have built up that nation, not just killed people. The incompetent press makes sure you don't realize that. For that I spit on them all... there is not ONE among them worthy of being near even the worst US soldier.

Well, In my opinion, and NO disrespect to the soldiers, but we are losing. Not because they haven't fought well, or bravely enough - they've done more than enough. It's our tactics, our strategy that is flawed.

Again, I go back to the fact that it is an idealogical war. Everytime we kill one, another dozen surface. Every hostile act we do, for whatever reason, inflames it all.

That's because there is NO match for the US! Name just one government that the US could not destroy totally if it so chose to.

I think Israel could give us a run for our money, to say the least.

Again, I go back to the fact that it is an idealogical war. Everytime we kill one, another dozen surface. Every hostile act we do, for whatever reason, inflames it all.

Thats the nature of what we are dealing with.  Fighting the enemy makes them and their supporters made.....so what.  Leaving them alone and just hoping islamic terrorism goes away doesn't work.

Thats the nature of what we are dealing with. Fighting the enemy makes them and their supporters made.....so what. Leaving them alone and just hoping islamic terrorism goes away doesn't work.

Re-read it if you must, but my point was/is:

It is an idealogical war, and in my opinion...until we treat it as such, and fight it hand in hand, ideal versus ideal....we'll never win. We cannot take out the head of the hydra and win, unless we stop the heads from growing back.

I think Israel could give us a run for our money, to say the least.

How so? I think we have enough nukes in our subs to turn them into a glass parking lot.

Well, In my opinion, and NO disrespect to the soldiers, but we are losing. Not because they haven't fought well, or bravely enough - they've done more than enough. It's our tactics, our strategy that is flawed.

Yeah our tactics are flawed. They should have green lighted the "total war" concept from the get go.
Insurgents residing in your town? Well then you better get them to move out or you leave cause we're goning to flatten the town! Insurgents hiding armament in your mosque? Get them to move it or well flatten that too. How much of this do you think it would take before they'd quit? Not too awful much I'd say.

It is an idealogical war, and in my opinion...until we treat it as such, and fight it hand in hand, ideal versus ideal....we'll never win. We cannot take out the head of the hydra and win, unless we stop the heads from growing back.

We do have to treat this war differently.  First we need to stop being politically correct and call this war for what it is. 

How so? I think we have enough nukes in our subs to turn them into a glass parking lot.

Oh, so you're willing to be barbaric...and nuke them? Oh gee, nice. *rolls eyes*

First we need to stop being politically correct and call this war for what it is.

Please, enlighten me.

Yeah our tactics are flawed. They should have green lighted the "total war" concept from the get go. Insurgents residing in your town? Well then you better get them to move out or you leave cause we're goning to flatten the town! Insurgents hiding armament in your mosque? Get them to move it or well flatten that too. How much of this do you think it would take before they'd quit? Not too awful much I'd say.

Yes yes yes, use the old hillbilly routine. Blow things up to kingdom come.

*raises eyebrow, sarcastic*

We'd only end up fanning the flames. Nothing less than pissing them off royally.

Please, enlighten me.

War against so-called radical islam. 

We'd only end up fanning the flames. Nothing less than pissing them off royally.
[/quote

Yeah, we don't want to make our enemies mad.