Epic Generator -- a feature too far?

Mega ambitious..

from JoeUser Forums

The idea behind the Epic Generator feature of Dark Avatar is pretty straight forward:

Turn your game into readable story complete with HTML and images showing how your empire grew. 

But implementation, woha.  By far, this has been the most expensive single feature of Dark Avatar requiring an immense logging system to put together keys that can later be turned into a story. 

And after 5 months of work, I have a feeling it may end up getting cut from Dark Avatar.  It's really a matter of resources -- which is more compelling to players? It's a tough call. But the practical reality is that the Epic Generator really may need AI programming which would bring me into it.

The problem with bringing me into helping with the Epic Generator is that that means I wouldn't be working on the AI. And I think the AI really needs as much time as humanly possible.

So the Epic Generator is on notice -- we'll know within 2 weeks whether this feature is going to have to be cut or not.  It'll be a bummer if it is.  To my knowledge, no game has ever tried to retell the story of a given game with this kind of narrative before.  And there appears to be a reason for that. ;)

If it does get cut, I'm sure there will be a lot of bummed out players. I know I'll be bummed out. I love this kind of thing.  Today, for instance, I spent a lot of time putting in flavor descriptions for ship components and such. It's pure fluff (like the epic generator) but it adds heart to the game.  I love that kind of stuff.

So we'll see how things progress.  We'll know pretty soon.

170,663 views 125 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Noooooo!! If the Epic Generator gets cut, I'll definitely be one of the bummed-out players.  Not that I don't understand your explanation for why it might not make it into the expansion, but I really really hope it doesn't come to that.

Speaking only for myself, the EG is probably the biggest attraction in Dark Avatar. I know you're right in that it's essentially "fluff", but I've been really looking forward to it. If it ends up having to go, I'll understand; but I'll be very sad if it does.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I'd be sad too. It's one of the things I'm most looking forward to as well.  But I also wouldn't want it in the game unless it was done well. Already, more time has been spent on the Epic Generator than was spent on, for instance, the entire AI of GalCiv II or the entire combat system.  There's just a ton of stuff that has had to be done in order to make it possible.

 

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, when you first mentioned the Epic Generator, I had two thoughts:

- Either you know something I don't, or that's going to be a massive undertaking.

- It's cool and all, but... not something I would have ever asked for in a feature list.

To be honest, I won't miss it if it gets dropped. I doubt I'd ever use it. But I don't post games on the Metaverse either, so I'm obviously not much into sharing my games with other people.

That's just my own personal taste though, and I know there will be plenty of people bummed out if it does get dropped. If you do decide to drop it, I suggest combining that announcement with a list of things you'll be able to include as a result of the freed up developer hours. That might help mute the negative reaction a bit.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It would be a nice perk, but I would not miss it terribly.

I might use it once or twice, but it would get old pretty fast. I would rather have a better AI and more work done on the actual game than a better Epic Generator.

And after all that time spent on it, if it does not measure up to the nit-pickers expectations there will be no end of it in the complaint dept.

And from what you said, Brad, it sounds like it is time to cut your losses on this idea.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Would you consider leaving the "logging" in and enable us players to provide resources/work for an external Epic Generator? Or is the logging in itself part of the resource/time problem?
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
It was a very impressive concept, and even if it doesn't get off the ground it may be worthwhile leaving the plugs in so that modders with more free time can give it a shot. Kudos for making the attempt in the first place. So far as I'm aware no one else has ever tried to make their games epic in that way.

Maybe it'd be worth a try for Galciv 3; it might be easier if it's built-in from the very beginning.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I would even settle for a dumbed down epic generator rather than none.
That's really something I am looking into.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
NOOOOOOOO!.....DONT DO IT...LEAVE IT IN!! LEAVE IT IN!!

Ok so maybe that was a bit over the top but seriously, it will be a great loss if it is indeed cut from DA. I think it is one of the greatest ideas to be put into a game and AFAIK totally revolutionary. And yes count me as one of the Bummed.

If it is too much in too little time for DA, and it seems so if it needs that much programming, then how about a later patch or at the very least don't shelve it and perhaps keep it mind for the distant GalCiv 3.

Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally I like the idea of the epic generator, practically though I don't see it being used too much. Personally I would never read a story someone had produced using the epic generator and would only look at my own for simple amusement.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If you don't get the "Epic Generator" done perhaps have an automatic screenshot ability; so that we CAN make stories easier for our games?

At least that part would help out a lot.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
more time has been spent on the Epic Generator than was spent on, for instance, the entire AI of GalCiv II



auch, even though i like the epic generator, without a worthy IA the game is nearly worthless (like most games though).
One of the things that made galciv so great is the IA that was pretty good.

i've seen far to many games were the IA just simply s*cked. Command & Conquer Generals for instance, nice game but bad IA, wouldn't attack more than like 2 or 3 times.

I'd prefer that more time is spend on the IA improving it even futher and making good use of diplomacy, world building, spies and combat than an epic generator.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
more time has been spent on the Epic Generator than was spent on, for instance, the entire AI of GalCiv II


For the love of god CUT it!

It does sound cool but I really don´t think post game story is worth this much sacrifice. I mean, would you not rather enjoy more wiser AI when your actually playing the game than a post game report??

Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If it comes down to a choice between an AI which stands a chance of winning versus a good human player or a story generator of how the the player kicks AI ass every time, the AI improvements are the obvious priority.

Although Gal Civ 2 is the best game of its type I have played I feel the AI still has a long way to go.

Perhaps the story generator could be added in a future patch or multiplayer expansion that was talked about.


Lenius.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Agreed. The AI, especially since MP isn't in this, is the #1, #2, and #3 priority.

Everything else is small potatoes.

+1 to cutting this feature.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm in the "I never saw the attractiveness of the epic generator to begin with" crowd. It seems to me like I would look at the epics for a game or two and after that never use the feature again. Not because I don't like making up epic stories out of my games, but because I do, but I like making them up *myself*, in my own head. It's just not a feature I want automated.

I know it appeals to many people, and it certainly wouldn't have been a negative feature to have, but it shouldn't come at the expense of core gameplay. Not by a long shot.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You should keep working on the EG. It wouldn't be that bad if it didn't make it into the game, but it might prove invaluable. A few tweeks here and there and it might work as a "soap opera generator". Make a list of 50 events and e few characters and randomize their order for every season. Then let the generator creat the scripts for the shows. You could get so rich...
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I will be very disappointed if the feature gets cut. With the previous poll asking which feature was most looked forward to, myself and a lot of people voted for the Epic Generator. If it does have to get cut then I hope there is some sort of compromise like perhaps a replay feature that shows an overview of the galaxy and highlights major events, Civilization style.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm of the camp that might use it once or twice as an amusement, but probably not more than that.

I can see the problem that if it tries to tell the story, but doesn't do it that well, or is inaccurate in places, it breaks the suspension of disbelief. I'm kind of with you Brad, that it either works well, or it doesn't work at all.

That being said, I'd vote to spend the time on it, even taking time away from the AI *shudder*, for the simple reason that it pushes the envelope of game development. This is a huge first step. As games continue to evolve as entertainment forms, seeing other developers take their cue from you and continue to expand upon the storytelling aspect of games would be brilliant. I could even imagine down the road something like the epic generator being incorporated into the game itself. Rather than simply giving a postmortem analysis, it might actually provide insightful running commentary as the game progresses.

Think of how immersive that would be to play a game that's telling you a story in narrative as you create it through your in game actions. *sigh*

So it's not really that I'm too excited about reading what the epic generator spits out, it more paving the way for bigger and better things in the future.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Cut it! Add stealth!
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd vote for leaving in logging and letting the community mod that themselves. However, if the logs aren't in there that will never be possible...

Along those lines and something that was mentioned earlier- it'd be nice even if there was a feature just like auto-save that would snap a shot of various aspects of the game (perhaps configurable) every X # of turns. That way you could go through that file later, pull out the graphs and pictures that were worthwhile and create your own epic post. Right now you'd have to manually screenshot every time, which is time-consuming.

Heck, even having something that just created game high-lights would be fine. It just doesn't need to be in verbose format.

I'd like to see this, but the novelty would wear off over time. I do see much value in being able to at least recap logs and screenshots of the game. Toning the scope down would seem much more valuable than eliminating the concept and possibility.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Frogboy,

I think everyone will understand if it needs to be cut, and although you may get one or two whiners I think most people here will be able to respond like adults.

That said, I know that a lot of people like writing Action Reports, and I still see a need for some kind of feature that enables you to keep track of everything that happens in the game (I tried it, taking notes is really hard).

For those that don't know, the very first Civ game created a log of important events and the dates that they occured, such as cities being founded and captured, techs being discovered and wonders being built. It wasn't pretty to look at, but it enabled players to have a look and write a more detailed report themselves.

I would like to suggest a similar feature for GC2. If you forget the epic story generator, please consider having the game save a text file of important events, such as:

1. Planets being colonized
2. Planets being captured
3. Techs being discovered
4. UP votes
5. Wars breaking out
6. Peace agreements
7. New ships being designed
8. Races being eliminated

(and so on)

Those of us who care about Action Reports can write all the flavour text ourselves, and use the event log as tool.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I vote for cut.

I want the AI to scare me. I don't want to read an epic used by weak players to prop up their egos.

I want stronger starbases. I want starbases and capital ships to target multiple ships per turn. I want to invade starbases. I want to research different technologies on different planets the way I can produce different ships on different planets. I want to play the scenarios that came with DL and post the scores to the Metaverse.

Anyone who is truly interested in making a story out of their game has the ability by virtue of being human. There's a reason writers haven't been driven out of business by artificial intelligence.
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Edit isn't working. Just wanted to append this line to my post:

I second the event logging idea from Evil Muppet. That would help writers tremendously and spare the development team from further resource expenditure.
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I won't be missing the epic generator . . . but I would like the game to remember the post-game summaries. Maybe have it record your race statistics and galaxy settings. I'd like to be able to compare my recent games to the ones I've done before. (I'm one of those who never uses the metaverse )
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd would be sad to see the epic generator cut from the game but everyone will acknowledge that is was a very ambitious project. After all, it's all about making the computer churn out a well-written text without making it look too much like a template or deviating from what really happened in the game instead of what it thinks happened.

As others suggested, perhaps using a more bare-bones version would be a good compromise? If events get logged and newly designed vessels can get a screenshot for example, players can construct their own stories if they want to. Perhaps this angle might help you salvage something from those months of hard labour: help the player create his report rather than making it for him.

As far as I know, Alpha Centauri was the only other game that had something even remotely similar to this in the aftermath of a game (but I don't know many of these types of games). It displayed the evolution of borders during the game and that's it.