I'm Proud Of Spain And Their Use Of Real Democracy

When 90% Say No To No Avail, It's Not Democracy

from JoeUser Forums
The US is leading the charge against Spain and saying their actions are a victory for the terrorists. But of course that is the ignorant way of looking at it. Let's think. What's democracy? It's being able to vote for representatives who will represent them. One-person-one-vote. We know this. So when 90% of Spain was telling their politicians: "Don't send the men to Iraq without the UN, don't send them to war or false pretenses" and their politicians sent them anyways to suck up the US, that's not democracy. The huge majority of Spain said no, so their leaders should have listened. The new leader has acted like a true representative of his people. As opposition leader, he said if elected he would recall the troops back to Spain. And he did. When was the last time a US president followed through with his pre-election promises? Think about it for a year. Good luck. Thank the Lord there is a government somewhere who actually listens to its people and responds in kind. Sending troops to Iraq over huge majority protests was a travesty of democracy which should have infuriated the free world. But instead an act of true and real democracy is villified as wrong and they take to cowardly position by saying it's supporting terrorists. I don't support terrorists. I support democracy. Do you?
politics
37,216 views 91 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I agree with you a bit on this one Mikimouse. I think if Spains electorate does not wish to support us then the Govenment should go along with their desire. I do not mind that our government pushes a publicity campaign tellt he Spanish people how faulty the logic may be, but I don't think we shoudl pressure the goverment of Spain to act against the wishes of its people.

(I agreed with miki, mark it on the calendar)
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
I also think I judged your behavior too harshly when I blacklisted you for trolling before so in honor of this historic day I will undo that error on my part.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I believe in democracy, but I also want to look at the bigger picture. Their government made a promise(of sorts) to send their troops to Iraq. They saw the threat that Suddam held for the world. Most of us never knew how big of a threat Osama was until he terroized our country. I believe the same for the people of Spain. They (citizens) didn't realize how big of a threat Suddam was. Government believed it, they deal with those type of topics everyday.
Just like Bush said, We are in a war we didn't know we were fighting....Now we do.
Spain was terrorized and then pulled out of Iraq. Giving them exactly what they wanted. Pick on the smaller countries. Less likely to defend themselves. Break up the alliance as much as possible. In my book, that's a bad way to look at it. The next thing Spain will see is the insurgents invading their country. More terrorism in their country. Why? Because they can.
I don't believe their cowards but I do think they are running from the "playground bully."
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks GreyWar I will mark it. What's this blacklisting anyways? What does it do? It's not like covering your ears so you can't hear one person's words is it? I assumed it has something to do with the points system so I never bother to think to use it. I don't want to be running down someone's score because I hate what they're saying. Instead, I tell them I hate what they're saying. Thanks. Even 'insightful'.
CrazyLady you're backwards and let me straighten you out. You say you look at the big picture. You're wrong. You look at the narrow picture. You're relating this is terms of democracy/spain/Iraq....but those are just mere blips in the history of the world. You're narrowing in on an event whereas I narrow out to the true meaning of democracy as a whole. And what Spain did was democratic and the previous gov't should have listened to its people. The bastards got voted out for it just like they would here.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Wow, no need to get testy....just a little passionate maybe... :)
I didn't mean to offend.....
The people may have "spoken" but is it for the better? When things go wrong, who will they blame? Democracy will work it's magic.....they will vote out who ever it is in office at that time.
Democracy is a wonderful thing! I believe in it right along with you BUT sometimes the government has to take certain risks to protect it's people. I would prefer our government try everything within it's grasp to protect us.
Sometimes Democracy doesn't always work in favor of what is best for the people...that it's trying to protect.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lol. CrazyLady you're starting to be your name. Awesome!
"BUT sometimes the government has to take certain risks to protect it's people"
Hmmm. Ok now. Let's see how crazy lady sees things. The government is supposed to take risks to protect its people....by sending them to a killing zone which their entire country didn't want them to be sent to. I bet you protect your kids by placing their bunkbeds on the freeway right? :)
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
We really don't understand Spain's system. How big is the propaganda machine? Do the people really understand what they're being told? Do we know anything about the poll and the questions asked (90%). Finally, did Spain agree to do something as a government? If they did, they should honor that to the best of their ability while still serving their people.

I agree whole-heartedly with democracy. But an unchecked majority can be as much of a tyranny as an unchecked minority. We vote politicians in and place our confidence in their wisdom and decisions. Not so we can put strings on them. It's representative democracy...
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
LOL. :)

Welllll......
Wait..... I wouldn't do that...and you knew that when you asked! Sneaky Sneaky! Lovin it too! :)
My hubby is military. That is his job. My kids' job is not to be in a freeway. They didn't "ask" for that.
Hubby, on the other hand, did. He knew going in (military) that war was a possiblilty. Is it fair, no. But, I wouldn't want it any other way. I know, by being there he is doing what he is trained to do. Don't get me wrong, I would miss him LOTS! But, I wouldn't tell our government to bring him home before his work was done....his work is important, and it's important that he knows he has my support and the support of our country. Moral of our soldiers is very important and the country NEEDS to stand behind them. For their sake.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Let me just add....
That satement...we need to stand behind our soldiers.....that goes for every military...every country.

:) are you boiling over yet miki? LOL :)
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Shumalite said: "Do the people really understand what they're being told?"
Again you see through the USA-view glasses and miss the point. Trust me. The people in Spain aren't stupid moron idiots who can't read or understand. How typically American. Looking at all through your eyes only. Here you are calling them stupid morons because the didn't want war without the UN. Simple as that.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
We really don't understand Spain's system.


Hmm...you should really read OG San's piece on the use of the word "we."

Do the people really understand what they're being told?


As much as the American people understand what they are being told. I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here, that the people are too uninformed to make a decision--well, that's how democracies work, not everyone gets to be the smart intellectual one. And more importantly, is the implication that they are uninformed a result of the fact that you don't agree with their decision? Would you be asking the same question if they had voted for the successor that Aznar handpicked and stayed active in the Iraq War?

Finally, did Spain agree to do something as a government?


The government changed. The new leadership is under no obligation to continue to do something that Aznar agreed to do. Particularly, in this case, because Aznar did it against the will of the people. The elections became a referendum on the war as a result Aznar's attempt to blame the bombing on ETA--the Spanish people were fed up and expressed those emotions in the polling booth.

Do we know anything about the poll and the questions asked (90%).


Here is what CNN says on the poll (in March 2003): Two recent opinion polls show overwhelming Spanish opposition to the war. A poll released on Saturday, taken by Spain's largest-circulation newspaper El Pais, showed 92 percent opposed to the war, with 80 percent rejecting Aznar's stance. A government-run poll released last Thursday showed 91 percent of Spaniards are against the war.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Spain was terrorized and then pulled out of Iraq. Giving them exactly what they wanted. Pick on the smaller countries. Less likely to defend themselves. Break up the alliance as much as possible. In my book, that's a bad way to look at it. The next thing Spain will see is the insurgents invading their country. More terrorism in their country. Why? Because they can.


Spain has a lot more experience fighting terrorists than America. That's why they managed to catch the bastards responsible for the attacks of 3/11. They are hardly hiding and letting the terrorists have their way.

One thing you have to realise is that while Iraq is part of the War on Terror for most Americans, it is not for most Europeans. That is why there is such strong resistance against the war. The link between AQ and Sadam is a non-existent one, and while Bush may be getting away with calling everything he hates "terrorists" in his own country, there is a lot more scepticism elsewhere in the world.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Kudos to Spain for catching them, too.
But really, in the long run, you don't see it causing problems?

Back to Democracy......miki, I see where your at on this. I do.
Your right......geesh, did I just type that? Democracy did prevail in Spain. And maybe the Iraqi people should learn a lesson from them.

Don't ask me where I went with all the other stuff...you mentioned Spain....I went everywhere else with it....call me crazy, it's OK.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
"miki, I see where your at on this. I do.
Your right.."
*gasps and then faints to the floor in a heap*
:)
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Three cheers for democracy. I love Spain, beautiful country, beautiful people. Not a fighting bunch, though, too busy getting chased through narrow streets by irate bulls. Frankly, I saw no reason for Spain to have been there in the first place. The other superpowers, Honduras, Dominican Republic, now that may cause a rift or two. Hopefully, now that Spain has recused itself from the combat, maybe they can send over some wine. I'm really in the mood for a cool Sangria, because there's more to life and death than just killing. It's alcohol. And Julio Iglesias. And Julio Jr. "To all the girls I've loved before..."
It's the same old pacifist rollover tactic. Granted, the Spaniards are lovers, not fighters, but there will come a time. The pro and con arguments are still the same. Frankly, it gives me a headache. Muslim (extremist) rule dictates that land once ruled by Muslims shall always be ruled by Muslims. That would be Spain. Opinions are like onions, everyone has some. Democracy is good and it worked in Spain. Consequences, on the other hand, are the result of not looking down the road while you're speeding. I don't believe anyone should fight if their heart isn't in it. Bygones. But, I'm becoming quite tired of getting sucker punched by the pacifists whose ideals don't involve the freedom of all people. It's high time you lily- livered, whiny, punks and punkettes sit down and shut up. I could give a rat's whisker what your political affiliation is, who you like or not, if you believe in conspiracies or no, freedom is universal.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
So if we are upset with a country's choice, even if it is the majority, then we are anti-democracy? One can still support democracy and think that the majority of a nation made a stupid decision. Still, I'll remember this when you criticize a decision supported by the majority of Americans.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
crazy lady,
My congratulations.....this is the first time (on my relatively short time on this website) that I have seen anyone change views based on the logic of someone elses argument. Normally both sides snipe at each other from their respective trenches. You seem to be truly open minded.....that is something of great value.

In your last reply you say 'maybe the Iraqi people should learn a lesson from them. ' One thing we should consider is that we have all beeen born and brought up knowing democracy, in fact it is the only system we have known. The Iraqi's, on the other hand, have never known democracy. Even without vested interests trying to corrupt the process it is going to be a very difficult time for them. Above all the people have to want democracy and for this to happen, they must first understand what it is. You cannot just impose a democracy on people.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
whatever baby but you can't spin real democracy. 90% said no, they did it anyway = not democracy. They say no, they listen and don't send the troops, = democracy in action. My point is that it's up to the people right or wrong to choose their nation's destiny. You think of the US as the empire who can bend basic beliefs just to suit the flavor of the day. And please don't say you think the US has a majority when supporting the war. 54% or whatever. Loadatripe.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #19 By: Super Baby - 4/21/2004 5:21:08 PM
So if we are upset with a country's choice, even if it is the majority, then we are anti-democracy? One can still support democracy and think that the majority of a nation made a stupid decision. Still, I'll remember this when you criticize a decision supported by the majority of Americans.


Criticizing is one thing, trying to stronghold and guilt trip the government into going against the will of its own people is another.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
You think of the US as the empire who can bend basic beliefs just to suit the flavor of the day


I do?

And please don't say you think the US has a majority when supporting the war. 54% or whatever. Loadatripe.


54% isn't a majority?

Criticizing is one thing, trying to stronghold and guilt trip the government into going against the will of its own people is another.


Reminds me of gay marriage advocates. How is the U.S. pressuring the government of Spain to support the war with troops? Unless it's something bad like a coup, I still don't see anything wrong with applying pressure.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
54% is not a majority. It now has to be a super majority, just like the Dems in the Senate do when appointing a Justice. Isn't that right girls?