mikimouse

I'm Proud Of Spain And Their Use Of Real Democracy

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I'm Proud Of Spain And Their Use Of Real Democracy

When 90% Say No To No Avail, It's Not Democracy

from JoeUser Forums
The US is leading the charge against Spain and saying their actions are a victory for the terrorists. But of course that is the ignorant way of looking at it. Let's think. What's democracy? It's being able to vote for representatives who will represent them. One-person-one-vote. We know this. So when 90% of Spain was telling their politicians: "Don't send the men to Iraq without the UN, don't send them to war or false pretenses" and their politicians sent them anyways to suck up the US, that's not democracy. The huge majority of Spain said no, so their leaders should have listened. The new leader has acted like a true representative of his people. As opposition leader, he said if elected he would recall the troops back to Spain. And he did. When was the last time a US president followed through with his pre-election promises? Think about it for a year. Good luck. Thank the Lord there is a government somewhere who actually listens to its people and responds in kind. Sending troops to Iraq over huge majority protests was a travesty of democracy which should have infuriated the free world. But instead an act of true and real democracy is villified as wrong and they take to cowardly position by saying it's supporting terrorists. I don't support terrorists. I support democracy. Do you?
politics
37,216 views 91 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top

No the US has no place voicing opinions about what Spain should do.

But Germany and France has a right to voice opinions about what the United States should do? Total hypocricy.

Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm sorry but that's a load of shit, shades. Germany and France certainly applied a lot more pressure against the US than the US has put on Spain. Have you seen massive protests in the United States calling Spain "Chamberlain"? No. Has the US put on any sanctions on Spain? No.
You're just trying to have it both ways. If the Spanish people don't want to be involved in Iraq then good for them. That's their right. But at the same time, Americans DO want to be involved in Iraq and the "world community" needs to get off our collective asses. Bush isn't going against the will of the people, he is carrying out its will.


I think we are talking about two different things--I'm talking about governments and you are talking about people. I would agree...what the US decides to do is between the US government and its people. But there is a difference between people marching in London and Paris, and Bush putting leaning on the new Spanish PM to change his mind.
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Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top
But Germany and France has a right to voice opinions about what the United States should do? Total hypocricy


I didn't say that. I said that Germany and France had a right to vote against UN involvment.
Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think people are mixing up governments and citizens.

Many citizens from many countries have protested against the Iraq war. The UK is a prime example of this, where almost 2 million took part in a single protest. Nothing wrong with that they have a right to express their opinions.

Many government have oppossed or supported the war and again there is nothing wrong with this. The UK actively supports the war, France passively opposses it.

Active responses however are wrong and impinge on the soveignty of the countries involved. Boycotts, trade embargos, threats or even military action, are all unacceptable ways of expressing disagreement. In fact it was on this very point that France, Russia and China refused to support a UN resolution. They felt they was insufficient evidence to allow for Iraq's soveignty to be challenged. Even the UK stated that it was only suppoorting a war to remove WMD and NOT Saddam.

I personally believe that the US government or its citizens are entitled to express it's opinion of Spain's decision. Any attempt to actively effect the decision would be wrong though. Likewise France, Germany and the UK government or their citizens are entitled to express their views on America's decisions.

Paul.
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top
opinions of course are and should always be welcome. But not actions against democracy.
Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think we are talking about two different things--I'm talking about governments and you are talking about people. I would agree...what the US decides to do is between the US government and its people. But there is a difference between people marching in London and Paris, and Bush putting leaning on the new Spanish PM to change his mind.


The governments might not be anti-democracy if they aren't saying or doing anything to show disapproval, but the people of such countries definitely are for condemning the U.S.' practice of real democracy.
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top
So, you agree that if people complain about Spain's use of real democracy, that they aren't anti-democracy? If not, then I guess it's only anti-democracy to oppose actions you support.
Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
huh? I'm all for truth and real democracy. When a go'vt ignores it's people, it's not democracy. Right or wrong.
Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top
Spain used democracy - good
Spain left Iraq - bad

Why bad? Because it teaches the terrorists that whenever someone does something to the Spanish, the Spanish are willing to wuss out and leave. That's the mindset of all Europeans - appeasement. It's never worked and it never will, yet the Europeans are only willing to use that method. These people have a law of vendetta people, an eye for an eye sort of unwritten law if you will. IF you never stand up to bullies, all they'll do is knock you around. The US understands this, why doesn't Europe?
Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top
A government has a responsibility to listen to it's citizens. It has no right however to interfere in the democratic rights of other countries citizens.

When people protest in country A about the actions of country B they are expressing their democratic rights.
If government A interferes with country B's actions then it is being undemocratic.

As for the arguement of appleasement, let me return the question from the Spanish point of view. Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Europe sees this why doesn't the US? The only appleasement going on was appleasing the US by being involved in it's imperial objectives.

It's all a matter of perspective. If you believe the war in Iraq is beneficial against the war on terror then you'll never support the Spanish position. Likewise, if you believe the war in Iraq was not part of the war on terror then you'll never supprot the US position.

Paul.
Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top

The governments of Germany and France put all the pressure they could muster on the United States to not go into Iraq. Trying to argue otherwise is very dishonest. They were very vocal, particularly Schroeder and Chirac, in telling the US what it should and shouldn't do.

If it's okay for them to do that, then it's certianly okay for the US government to express its opinion about what Spain should or shouldn't do.

If Spain wants to demonstrate its collective cowardice, which is how the move is generally received here by the citizens of the United States, that's their right as a democracy. Maybe they'll be lucky and the terrorists won't hurt them anymore and instead go after more immediate threats.

Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top

huh? I'm all for truth and real democracy. When a go'vt ignores it's people, it's not democracy. Right or wrong.

And Americans overwhelmingly were in favor of going into Iraq. Therefore, it's democracy in action and when France went out of its way to tell the US how wrong it was, it was subverting democracy? I don't think so. But it's the same thing the US has done with Spain. Our government has a responsibility to ITS people to work towards its interests and Spain being in Iraq meant that fewer Americans would be killed in Iraq. Someone has to step in now where Spain was. 

If it was my son serving in Iraq, you'd bet your ass I'd want my government to do whatever it took to keep Spain in there. Because of Spain's withdrawal, someone else's sons are going to have to pick up the slack. More Americans are going to die because of Spain leaving. Therefore I would expect my government to try to keep Spain there.

But don't let cold hard truth get in the way of your intellectual masterbation on these distant philosophical issues.

Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
Lol. All of a sudden France is a force to even think about? I'm sure you were one of the ones on the anti-french rampage what with they're being rude to 'their saviors" and whatnot. Now you use them as an example in things having to do with world power and relevant politics? Silly. Spain did what the people wanted. The previous admin didn't. That's why they were voted out. This is how it happened. Spain's people said 'don't send our men to Iraq in an unjust non-UN war'...the government didn't listen and sent them anyways. Elections were coming up. Some entity blew up trains and killed lots of people. The people were angry the war on terror, the war they didn't want, had hit them at home. Guaranteed each voter held the thought 'if the gov't listened to us and didn't send the troops to Iraq the terrorists would never have targeted us'. So they voted with their brains this time. It's hilarious the spin most try put on this, that it's a victory for terrorism. It was the prime example of what can happen when a supposed democratic gov't doesn't listen to its people. Enough said. To say Spain is running away is true only in the context that they should never have been in the eye of the storm anyways. They shouldn't have been sent there. The new gov't got its priorities straight. Bravo for them. The US could learn lots and lots from Spain and their employ of real democracy. They deserve our utmost praise.
Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top

Ah so your argument is that the US is to be held to a different standard than France. Okay, that explains much of what you write.

As for "real" democracy, again, Americans support the war in Iraq. That's "real" democracy in action.

Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well said, mikimouse.

It is pretty clear that the US as a country has little or no respect for democratic procedures abroad. The threats and pressure the US applied to Europe prior to, and after the invasion reveals a blatant disregard for the sovereignity of other countries. The message I'm seeing is: We run the show. Anyone not willing to "play ball" with the US risk facing sanctions. Doesn't sound very democratic to me.

Voicing an opinion is one thing, trying to bully governments into changing their position is quite another. I welcome the change of leadership in Spain. As you said, real democracy!
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top
I guess my problem is that, supposedly, criticizing Spain is "bullying", yet criticizing the U.S. is perfectly fine. Again, I guess you have to hate the U.S. and love those against the U.S. to understand this logic.
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top
Voicing an opinion is one thing, trying to bully governments into changing their position is quite another
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top
So the U.S. is doing absolutely nothing wrong by voicing its opinion about Spain then.
Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top
You really lost me there...Maybe you should reread what I posted and comment on something I said.
Reply #71 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't see anything that suggests that the U.S. was bullied anybody.
Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top
draginol said: "Ah so your argument is that the US is to be held to a different standard than France. Okay, that explains much of what you write."
go away and play little fella. How you came up with that is too beyond reality for me. Sorry though.
Reply #73 from JoeUser Forums Top
"criticizing Spain is "bullying", yet criticizing the U.S. is perfectly fine"
well, consider the US as the biggest toughest guy in the schoolyard, then think of Spain an an ant. Open thee eyeees. :)
Reply #74 from JoeUser Forums Top
So Draginol was right. It's a double standard.