Draginol's history of posting at JU is quite extensive.

He's written 1095 articles here at JU. I think declaring him to be small minded simply because of this one thread is premature.

As I sincerely questioned before:

Seriously, has somebody else taken over your blogging handle, Draginol? - Def. Post #18

so lemme get this straight: unless one is able to make oneself see wonderful new clothing where there is none, one hates (or at least don't much like) the naked emperor?

I don't know if that analogy is quite fitting (ooh, bad pun!) Kingbee.

It simply seems to me, Mr. Roberts, that you are leaping on an opportunity to smack Draginol as opposed to attacking his argument(s).

I think we intend to be a good country, but are represented by people that don't understand what a good country is. Killing 47,000 citizens of another country doesn't make us a good country, it makes us Nazi's. For all of the USA's good intentions the vast majority seem to go hopelessly wrong, especially under this current administration. Anytime this administration gets involved with anything, it tends to degrade, its almost like Bush is cursed, and has cursed this country for his terms. The numbers speak for themselves, consumer confidence is low, household budgets straining under big gas and utility expenses, record levels of murders nationwide, widespread passage of anti-consumer/citizen bills, the list goes on and on.

So civilian deaths in a war determines whether someone is a Nazi or not?  We killed over a million Japanese civilians in World War II.  Were we Nazis then too?  And in World War II, were were somewhat targeting civilians.  In Iraq, we were trying to keep civilian deaths to a low (and don't let this statement indicate that I agree with your premise that 40,000+ civilians died from US military weapons in Iraq).

Are we a good country? No, we aren't. America is filled with arrogance, self centered mentality, a me-first and me-best outlook that generally makes us look like idiots to the rest of the world.

Let me guess, you're a Democrat. 

So which country should we emulate? Which country isn't filled with arrogance or self-centered mentality?

I see the United States filled with compassionate, charitable people. Americans are amongst the most charitable people on Earth. We have spilled more blood than any other country to liberate other countries from tyranny. 

America has shown time and time again that they don't value the lives of people of other countries more than themselves. We're an egotistical, wasteful, and ignorant country as a whole.

Spoken like a true Democrat. Thank you for making my case.

You know, if you ask me if we're a 'good country', I'll tell you that is a decision still being made. We can always do better and I think we've done better before, and I think America is ready to raise the bar and cull the fat. You seem to want to just use the question to somehow prove Democrats hate the U.S. and Republicans love the U.S. no matter what - both stances are divisive and dumb. Seriously, has somebody else taken over your blogging handle, Draginol?

The decision is still being made? That's a total cop-out.

Read Sue's response, is she blaming the administration? No. She thinks on the whole we're a bunch of self-centered horrible people.  What some of you don't want to accept is that there is a wide swath of people on the left who think America (not the administration but the PEOPLE -- our culture, our way of life, our basic principles) are contemptible.

What binaristic vision you have Draginol. It would seem by many of your posts that reality for you is either defined in terms of being a republican or a democrat. and if one is not one.. then one must be the other. And if one thinks that America is not a 'fair and decent' place to live this somehow automatically equates with 'hating - or at least not liking very much' America. For myself and my friends life is, and people are, far too complex to support such simplistic reasoning. Such syllogistic thinking would, however, seem to characterise much of your discourse. Perhaps your inability to experience let alone acknowledge that complexity is a reflection of the rigidity of your own moral universe. The wonderful thing about America is that we are free to express our dissent in practical concrete terms, no?

If someone says that Bob isn't a fair and decent person, I'm going to assume they don't like Bob very much.  Most people don't choose to be friends with someone they don't think is fair or decent.  But thanks for insulting my intelligence.  Because you know, if I don't have your opinions it must be due to ignorance on my part...

Consider this. how many potential repeaters let alone purchasers of your software do you think you have alienated with your simplistic 'us & them' characterizations?

How is this for specific: Anyone who makes purchasing decisions for products based off the personal opinions of one of the people who helps manufacture it can fuck off.   People who buy the software made by my employer do so because the software does something they want.  To imply it's some sort of charity or popularity contest is absurd. 

Now, getting back to the main point:

In the United States, there are two major political parties. It IS a binary system.  It is worth noting that most people who choose Republican candidates think America is fair and decent whereas less than half the people who vote for Demcoratic candidates feel the same way.  In my experience, it is the impotent and fragile who are unable to make use of generalizations or groupings as a tool for problem solving. Such people are always mired in "shades of gray".  I know when something is a shade of gray and I know when something is more straight forward.  When you have people like Sue who posted above making the point for me, I think my point is made.

 

The decision is still being made? That's a total cop-out. - Draginol

It doesn't suit your purpose but is very accurate. Deciding at this moment if everything that makes up America is good or bad as a whole is ridiculous. If people ask whether or not Deference was a good blogger, they could make a final judgement after I passed from JU, but if I was still here blogging, I would think the case would still be open and a fair, concise final decision unattainable.

In the United States, there are two major political parties. It IS a binary system. - Draginol

In looking at today's voter discontent I'd have to say the binary system isn't working too well, it only makes sense that use of such black and white judgement follows the same course - go shades of GRAY.

Give me analog any day of the week, I like to have options and not simply be forced to choose between shitty and shittier when it comes to electing representatives for me in government.

The decision is still being made? That's a total cop-out. - Draginol It doesn't suit your purpose but is very accurate. Deciding at this moment if everything that makes up America is good or bad as a whole is ridiculous. If people ask whether or not Deference was a good blogger, they could make a final judgement after I passed from JU, but if I was still here blogging, I would think the case would still be open and a fair, concise final decision unattainable.

People have to make value judgements sometimes. Do you like Bob or don't you like Bob.  You can't go your entire life in a state of indecision (in my opinion).

In looking at today's voter discontent I'd have to say the binary system isn't working too well, it only makes sense that use of such black and white judgement follows the same course - go shades of GRAY. Give me analog any day of the week, I like to have options and not simply be forced to choose between shitty and shittier when it comes to electing representatives for me in government.

I don't like either party very much.  However, I don't close my eyes and pretend the world is how I wish it was. I deal with the world how it is.  Artists and entertainers and the like have the luxury of imagining a different world. But for most of us, we have to make decisions every day based on how the world works.

What annoys me, and you haven't done this but a couple commenters have, is that people who only can see shades of gray somehow think those who are able to make value judgements that are binary are somehow incapable of seeing shades of gray.  I see the failings and problems of American politics, culture, and principles.  But I can also take that and make an overall binary value judgment.

When I'm working, I have to do that all the time. Some people literally get lost in indecision because of all the variables.  But we have  a saying - perfect is the enemy of good.  At some point, people have to make decisions, have to make judgments.

Democrats and Republicans are comprised of people from all over the spectrum. But here in the United States we have two major parties. We can wish it wasn't that way but it is.  And Democrats, by and large, are far more likely to think the US is a bad country.  40% felt so.  They are also a lot more likely to become immoblized with indecision (after all, 14% couldn't even answer a yes or no question -- too many shades of gray apparently). 

What I find obnoxious in some posters views is that they think indecision is somehow more sophisticated or intellectual. It's not.  To me, there's nothing intellectual about being unable to come to a specific conclusion, quite the opposite, it just implies they lack the intellectual ability to take all the variables and make a heuristic judgement on it. 

When someone says "You are interpreting the poll a certain way" my answer is "Well duh." But that changes nothing in the conclusion -- I am still apt to support people who interpret the poll the same way I do.  It's totally irrelevant whether someone took "America" as being the western Hemisphere or Dick Cheney. If we can't even agree on what America means, why should I support them?  And sure, it's easy to write some comment, dripping with condescension and arrogance at someone whose opinions I don't agree with and whose arguments I find unsophisticated. But it takes away from meaningful argument and debate if we just sit around trying to piss each other off.

But those who say I'm interpretting it a specific way that is different from them are probably being disengenous. 

Consider this: The question was "Do you think America is a fair and decent country". Less than half of Democratic voters said yes.  I write a blog saying "Democrats hate America" and some of the respondents complain and argue that by America they mean the current Republican administration and resent the title of the post. But the title of the post was America. So why object? If America means the current Republican administration and my use is consistent, why the angst? Because they interpreted America the same way I do -- our country.  They just don't want to concede that a significant percentage of Democrats don't like the United States for the reasons that Sue above writes.

Do you like Bob or don't you like Bob. - Draginol

Much different from, "is Bob good or bad", Draginol, as you know. Maybe I don't like Bob but maybe the whole of him is 'good'. Maybe he's such a mixed bag I can' t determine that at this moment. The fact is, the question presented was,

"Is America a fair and decent country,"

not

"HEY, YOU GUYS LIKE BOB?"

Then we go trash everyone who says they don't like Bob.

Is Bob a fair and decent guy?

I'm willing to bet tha tif someone says no that bob isn't likely to be a big fan.

I'm willing to bet tha tif someone says no that bob isn't likely to be a big fan. - Draginol

Sure, but why would someone say Bob isn't fair and decent? A simple yes or no answer doesn't do justice to the question, it's important to have a broader discussion as opposed to simply dividing people between their one syllable answer.

Bakerstreet did well when he explained this with his polls versus essay discussion in post #3.

A simple yes or no answer doesn't do justice to the question, it's important to have a broader discussion as opposed to simply dividing people between their one syllable answer.

No, you miss the point of polls. They are snapshots, but one cannot have a discussion on pushing the button on a camera. You have to eventually take the snapshot. What you are advocating is impossible. And that is for every poll respondant to be a part of a group session that discusses each question at length before answering. And that is not only stupid, it is impossible.

You can have Krugman, and the rest of the NY Times editorial board opine on a subject to great length and come up with the meaning of Bob! But THAT is not a poll.

A Poll does not let you pontificate. It never has. Show me any poll where the respondants were allowed to bloviate on any subject. A poll asks multiple choice or yes/no! They always have, they always will. They are not Tests. In the sense that no one knows what YOU answered.

But we do know how 46% of the democrat respondants in this poll responded to a simple question. You fear (not fail, fear) to grasp that point.

"If someone says that Bob isn't a fair and decent person, I'm going to assume they don't like Bob very much. Most people don't choose to be friends with someone they don't think is fair or decent." Draginol.

really draginol. comparing a country with an individual is once again simplistic and reductive reasoning. you are assigning a 'moral equivalence' to two disparate entities. one is an abstract cultural concept that cannot be confined to a simple definition and the other is an experience based upon an actual physical relationship.

"But thanks for insulting my intelligence. Because you know, if I don't have your opinions it must be due to ignorance on my part...". Draginol.

once more you conflate two statements as if they are one and the same. it is entirely reductive to presume that my response is defined by my wanting you to have the the same opinions as mine. you are imputing things i have never said. It is not a question of whether your opinions differ to mine but HOW they differ that is of issue here Draginol, just as there is a difference between being unhappy with America's foreign and domestic policies - and the degree therefore that they make our society a 'fair and decent' place to live - and hating the country.

as for insulting your intelligence. I don't really think you need me to do that for you. your own words speak well enough for themselves. no?

But we do know how 46% of the democrat respondants in this poll responded to a simple question. You fear (not fail, fear) to grasp that point. - Dr. Guy

But we do know how 46% of the democrat respondants in this poll responded to a simple question. - Dr. Guy

Well, Doc, you can spit from the sidelines or you can enlighten us with your take.

My objection to Draginol's use of the poll question to prove his point was that I thought it was an extremely poor way of 'proving' Democrats 'hate' America - however one may take that.

I'm not questioning the poll nor do I fear the poll's statistics.

I'm not questioning the poll nor do I fear the poll's statistics.

Then I fail to see what you are questioning.  At that point in time, Brad is right.  They hated, or at least did not like America much.  That is all he has stated. He has not called them unpatriotic or evil or hateful.  Just that he chooses not to associate, politically, with those that would so label America.

Again, snapshot!  Tomorrow it may be different. But the day of that poll, it was accurate.  "Absense of Malice".  "Is it true?  No, but it is accurate.".

Then I fail to see what you are questioning - Doc Guy

I've written nine posts for your reading pleasure on this thread, Doc. I hope you'll see see my point eventually.

I've written nine posts for your reading pleasure on this thread, Doc. I hope you'll see see my point eventually.

No, and I have been following it. I am sorry. Again, the question was simple. Whether misguided or not, the democrats decided they did not like America. And you have not addressed that issue, instead trying to dance around it with hyperbole. Which is not an issue IN A POLL.

IN a debate it is on point and pertinent. No one ever claimed a poll to be a debate.

We also have Sue above making the case why 40% of Democrats don't think the United States is fair and decent.

Mr. Roberts: I was using an analogy. I'm sorry it went over your head.

"Mr. Roberts: I was using an analogy. I'm sorry it went over your head." draginol.

And i was pointing out that an analogy only makes sense in a debate if it serves to reinforce a rhetorical positon. in order to do that the object being used to compare must at least have some relation to the thing in which it is being compared. exactly how does comparing liking or disliking a person relate to liking or disliking one's country draginol?

your predilection for manichean points of view in order to promote specious arguments perhaps explains your inability to understand exactly what the term 'syllogism' means. now why doesn't that come as a surprise.

"How is this for specific: Anyone who makes purchasing decisions for products based off the personal opinions of one of the people who helps manufacture it can fuck off." draginol.

and it is that attitude that has alienated people like myself and my friends in the first place draginol. any 101 marketing class will tell you that people do not simply buy products based only on their use value. we buy brands - we buy appearances. whatever you personally may feel about the right or wrong of that is really all rather irrelevant - at least where the bottom line counts.

this has nothing to do with denying you the right to express yourself draginol. it has everything to do with HOW you choose to express yourself. which is exactly my point regarding this thread. the thing i love the most about america is that freedom of expression. you get to express your petty black & white generalizations and make your itemized lists.. and i get to express my freedom as a consumer where it counts. choice is a wonderful thing non?

"What I find obnoxious in some posters views is that they think indecision is somehow more sophisticated or intellectual. It's not. To me, there's nothing intellectual about being unable to come to a specific conclusion, quite the opposite, it just implies they lack the intellectual ability to take all the variables and make a heuristic judgement on it."

You've heard most everybody thinks they're an above average driver -- the fast drivers think they're above average in skill, and the slow drivers think they're above average in safety. In this, too, I think the decision makers think they're above average in speed, and the wafflers think they're above average in accuracy. American culture definitely values the first approach more, but I'll bet they both have value at times. They'd better, otherwise I'll have to apply for an intellectual disability permit.

On the original topic, you say you "came across" this Rasmussen poll but you don't link to it. I thought your conservative audience didn't appreciate being told what to think without being able to see the data? And that's why you were digging through raw poll data yourself instead of finding this as a factoid in a RealClearPolitics article or similar and repeating it as true?

The closest I could come to the original poll wording is at h ttp://www.rasmussenreports.com/USA_fair_and_decent%20November%202004.htm , and you can see some mitigating factors there. The question was "US Society: a) Fair and Decent, or Unfair and Discriminatory"? You can pick up some votes on the 'discriminatory' phrasing, especially among blacks (who vote Democrat). For example, if you'd phrased the question "US Society: a) Fair and Decent, or Unfair and Immoral?" you would have got a lot of Christian conservative Republicans a little more likely to pick (b). From the poll, 31% of Democrats believe "most Americans are racist." I think that would explain why they picked (b) at the same time they would agree to the phrase, "men like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln were heroes who created a great nation."

Debate: Debate is a formalized system of (usually) logical argument. Rules governing debate allow groups and individuals to discuss and decide issues and differences.

To me it seems that hardly anyone on this site actually does any debating seeing as debating would require both parties (or more) to reach a “middle ground” as oppose to “sticking to your guns”.

Argument: In logic, an argument is an attempt to demonstrate the truth of an assertion called a conclusion, based on the truth of a set of assertions called premises.

Now this sounds more like what is going on here. Everyone feels that what they believe in has to be true and that no one else’s opinion is right. This same concept applies to politics, at least today’s politics. This is the reason this country is not where it should be. I love this country; I wouldn’t change it for the world. Is it the best place on this planet? Not necessarily, it doesn’t have to be the best place, just good enough for me.

asked whether the person thought the United States was a fair and decent country.

Again, I repeat: Is America a fair and decent country.

While these 2 quotes are not worded the same, it seems obvious that they both meant the same. What do I get from this? Again, obviously this meant the American people, not the land (duh the land does nothing for decency or fairness), not the Gov’t alone, but included. I have to agree with both DrGuy and Draginol that this is a simple question and that there is really no need to discuss, take time to think or debate the question at all. This question is based on what is on a persons mind “at the moment” during what is happening “at this moment” around the US and anything the US is involved in. This was not a life or death question, a decisive question or a question to end all questions.

I think, as a whole, America (or the US) is fair and decent. We do our best to be what we say we are, though we don’t always get it right. But at least we try. We are not perfect, we only want what we think is best, not just for us, but for everyone around the world. Of course not everyone will agree with us and that’s understandable, not everyone thinks like we do. But we can at least send the message that we want peace, even if that’s not exactly what our Gov’t seems to imply.

There is no denying the US needs some fine tuning, that the average American can use some educating when it comes to politics, that we shouldn’t always expect others to greet us with open arms. That does not make us bad people though, we just made some bad choices and now we have to learn to live with them and deal with them. The deal with them part is what we have the most trouble with.

Do Democrats hate America (or at least don't like it much)?

I wouldn’t say hate, otherwise why have a party to run for something you hate. I would say they don’t like what America is today. But that’s their choice, their opinion and their God given right to think what they want. It does not affect me in the least. The poll does make it seem that they do not like it, and there are some here that live off of using polls to bash Bush as much as possible, it would be ironic that they would complain about this poll.

Actually I do place a good part of why I feel we aren't as good and decent as you say on this administration. Never before have we had such polarizing leadership that divides people on the basis of either being with us, or against us. Since when did we have an administration go around basically calling anyone not agreeing with them "Traitors" to our country?

If you want to create legions of angry people that dislike this country, this is the way to do it, and this administration succeeded in doing that dramatically. You can further create anger and seperate by repressing the lower and middle class through anti-consumer laws, tax cuts for the rich kids, and everything else. They did that too, which creates even more anger among the other side.

So you see, I do blame this administration for this debacle we are in right now as a country. I also blame the republican morons in the majority. I also blame corporate greed being a willing party to all of this. I sit here, waiting for the eventual liberal tidalwave to flood this country, I can't wait to see all of the right wingers cringe.

Actually I do place a good part of why I feel we aren't as good and decent as you say on this administration.

Which is assinine.  It is like hating your best friend because of the outfit she wore one day.

It is like hating your best friend because of the outfit she wore one day. - Doc. Guy

Sure, Doc., but she keeps wearing the same outfit day in day out. A pattern of behaviour is beginning to show. It's not exclusive to the executive branch either....

Throw them all out!