Who won the War? Israel or Hizbullah

The implications of the UN Resolution

from JoeUser Forums
Israel's stated objectives in the just concluded war against Lebanon was (a) degrade the military capability of the Hizbollah and (2) secure the release of the two soldiers captured in the run up to the conflict five weeks ago. After launching a most savage and unrestrained attack on the civilian population of Souther Lebanon, Beirut and Tyre along with Sidon Isreal has had to concede defaeat in that both these objectives reamined beyound realisation. Of course, this has not been a victory for Hizbollah, but it has eemerged from the war relatively stronger and its political legitimacy enhanced by the ferocious manner in which its fighters took on the Israeli Defence Force. The dream of the Olmert regime of using the so called war on terror in order to receate a "new middle east" remains a destant chimera. In fact, the UN must have included a punitive caluse to hold the Israeli cabinet particularly Olmert responsible for the unprecedented destruction of civilian infrastructure, lives and property. There was a sound case for war crimes trial against the Israeli leadership which was lost because thr US did not want a precedent that would be used against it especially that its own conduct of the Iraqi war has not been very civilised.

The Hizbollah has succeeded in exposing the myth of the invincibility of the IDF. A rag tag group of fighters were able to take on a modern army equipped with the top of the lone firepower by the USA. The neo conservative new order in the middle east has now been put into disarray . The IDF has been trained to fight the Arab Israeli wars of 1967 and 1973. It has not been able to prevail in the new kind of war theat the Hizbollah has waged. The Israeli forces in its push to the River Litani lost over 100 men and by Israeli standards this is a huge loss.

The Israeli strategy of using the "shock and awe" bombing raids of the USA has cost over 1200 lives in Lebanon. The new generation which had come of age in the 1990's has now been completely radicalised and the support for the Hisbollah is at an all time high in Lebanon. Instead of degrading the Hizbollah, the Israelis have actually upgraded the Hizbollah.

Resolution 1701 passed by the uN reflects the political support extended by the USa to Israel. The ground politcal and military realities are far different. The UNIFIL now has an extended mandate to monitor the ceasefire. It is yet to be seen if NATO forces are deployed south of the Litani river. Any deployment will have to recognise the fact that the Hizbollah retains theatre dominance in the southern part of Lebanon.

The resolution is vague over the issue of Shebaa Farms. But still let us hope peace will prevail.
politics
15,075 views 40 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
As we see Hizbullah won the war .

What did Israil do ?

Kill + crazy Game with US + UN power only !!

They can kill only but they can not effect our mind.

Thank you Bahu Virupaksha

Faisal
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

I agree that Israel needs to learn new tactics to fight this type of war.  But I think they can, and they learned a lot from this campaign.  And I agree tha Israel lost.  But they needn't have.  They lost when they agreed to the UN Cease fire.

They will not have peace until Hezbollah is gone from Lebanon.  Quite simply because Hezbollah will not allow them peace.

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
They will not have peace until Hezbollah is gone from Lebanon. Quite simply because Hezbollah will not allow them peace.


They will not allow them peace because according to the koran....Allah will "not" return to this world until Israel is gone. Just how long do you think Hezbollah will keep to the cease fire resolution? And just an FYI Israel lost because they wouldn't bring their fire power to bear on civilian population. Israel has enough weapons to lay waste to Hezbollah's shitty little corner of the world.

And Bahu, use your brain. Hezbollah exposed NO myth. The IDF could have laid waste to it all, but choose not to.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I love the fact that Bahu speaks about Hezbollah as if they somehow managed to stop an army with fire power similar to that of the US. The fact that Israel restrained itself from completely leveling the entire country only proves that they also tried it the US way but that tactic just doesn't work. Hezbollah and the Lebanese people were plain lucky. Israel and the US were plain stupid for holding back. Wars were not ment to entertain the locals and go around like police looking for criminals, it's ment to kill, destroy and to knock some sence into those who are being attacked. But Iraq and Lebanon is proof of what you get when you have some of the worlds most destructive and powerful weapons but hoping to only kill that one guy between all the "good" ones.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Until the REASONS why the people of this region support groups like Hezbollah, al Qaeda etc end, these groups will NOT go away. The Moslem people consider these groups the only way to get the West and Israel out of their lives. The Islamic people do not consider these groups as terrorists. That is a reality the United States and Israel MUST accept to see if there is a way to STOP the fighting that has been taking place since 1948 in that region.

I do not know if Israel or Hezbollah won but I do know who lost-- Lebanon!
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
If it were only a matter of "getting the US and Israel out of their lives" we could fix that very easily. You know perfectly well that that would not suffice. There is no amount of appeasement which would slake their thirst for infidel blood. To pretend otherwise is to be a fool.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Israel should have just gone ahead and wiped them off the face of the planet then the little weenies that serve as the terrorist cheering section could go cry in their beds for a while.

By the way Boohu, being as a ceasfire was declared, there was no winner. I thought any idiot would know that. Guess I was wrong.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
My... what a collection of racist vituperation I've stumbled on here. For the information of bigots on both sides of the question no one won. Certainly not Israel, now held up to the whole of the Muslim Umma as an utter laughing-stock. The 'restraint' of the IDF demonstrates nothing other than the lack of any kind of will to win on the part of Olmert and his cronies (you can be sure that Sharon, when that vile racist is finally laid in the ground, will start spinning like a top in disgust at the current performance of his beloved military); as well as its utter inability to deal with a guerilla war.

They're already screaming back in Haifa and Tel Aviv at the numbers of dead Israeli soldiers - how if, instead of a hundred dead Israelis there were a thousand? Or ten thousand? Because it's only by being willing to incur far greater casualty levels than those yet seen that the IDF will clear Hezbollah from the ground of Southern Lebanon - something that the much vaunted courage of the IDF is presently not able to stomach.

I was watching Fox News earlier. A resident of Beirut drew up to the apartment block he'd recently fled from with his family: this was the first they'd seen of their former home. Who was held rsponsible for the fact that their home was now a heap of rubble? Hezbollah? The corrupt incompetents of Lebanon's political classes?

No. Israel. "All our blood for Hezbollah" the man's teenage son said. "All our blood for Hezbollah."

Olmert is to be congratulated for running such an effective recruitment campaign on Hezbollah's behalf.

Olmert, there's a man who ought to be pleased with his most recent political successes. The incompetence of the IDF revealed; the political cowardice and military ineptitude of his party revealed; an entire new generation of resistance fighters recruited; 150 Israeli civilians dead as a direct consequence of his decision to exploit the kidnappings as a cause for war; over a thousand Lebanese dead, killed by Israelis while even Americans got to watch (even Americans have had a hard time not noticing the immense superiority of arms available to the Israelis - as well as how little avail that superiority has been). And one more spectacular success: Hezbollah still has the two fools they captured back at the beginning of this - and Israel will be forced to negotiate for their return with the only bargaining chip they have - the Lebanese prisoners they hold illegally. Yes indeedly, Olmert, you've certainly testified as to your fitness to receive the mantle of Sharon, Irael's Defender.

Oh, and speaking of Sharon, that bloated pig and orchestrator of murder by proxy, he seems, finally, about to die and go before his God for judgment. I can already see the devils in hell sharpening the pitchforks, ready to tenderize his flabby ass for eternity - oh my! horror of horrors, Israel's 'warrior' dead!!! What an omen for the superstitious Ashkenazis bopping up and down in front of their Wall! A more timely and serendipitous comment on the last days of Israel's political competence and military capability I couldn't have hoped for.

So now, let's see... What exactly is it that Hezbollah has lost? An indeterminate number of fighters... with an entire ocean of willing recruits waiting to take their place. An indeterminate number of missiles... with Iran and Syria only too willing to replace them, and more. Oh, and let's not forget the spectacular 'defeat' of going head to head with the IDF and making them look like clowns governed by jesters. Yes indeedly, a catastrophic defeat there.

And what has America gained from this propaganda/PR 'victory' for Israel? Conclusive proof that the most technologically advanced weaponry in the world is practically useless (except for destroying apartment buildings occupied by civilians) in the context of guerilla war, and the privilege of once more seeing Bush put his foot as deeply in his mouth as it will go. Oh yes, and the warm patriotic glow that follows from the realization that our political elites are now so sophisticated that they can lie and smile at the same time.

As I have said many times, the only way for America to gain anything in that region is to turn the whole of it, including Israel, into a sea of shining black glass, from Tehran to Damascus and not excepting Jerusalem. Kill Them All, along with anyone unfortunate enough to be in the region at the time.

The great drawback to my plan, other than the fact that there isn't an American politician now living with balls enough to carry it out, is that rabid racist weenies and armchair warriors such as those posting here (who, at least on the face of things, wouldn't know whether to shit themselves or go blind if confronted with an actual terrorist) will have no convenient scapegoat for the racism that's inherent in their support for Israel - other than Blacks of course, but we all know that they've been off-limits since Lyndon Johnson was President.

Personally, I still have hope that August 22nd is actually Doomsday, and I can be done once and for all with effusions of nonsense such as that set on display here.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think it's pretty clear that Hezbollah won big-time from the recent skirmishing. As Emp said they got thousands of potential new recruits, they made Israel look like fairly incompetent warmongers (again) in the eyes of the non-US world, and they showed that a great power can be stalled or even halted by sufficient resolve and indiscriminate force.

They've also ensured that they'll get continued funding from rabid anti-Israel elements in the oil-rich states and extra military equipment from Syria.

In comparison Israel got nothing, they've merely ended up in the position I said they'd end up in - negotiating the return of their soldiers in exchange for the release of Lebanese prisoners. They may as well have not bothered for all the good it did them.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Israel should have just gone ahead and wiped them off the face of the planet then the little weenies that serve as the terrorist cheering section could go cry in their beds for a while.


This quote shows that either you allow your emotions to dictate your political ideas or you are just visually challenged to ground realities. You know as the rest of the world that the vicious campaign of air strikes launched by Israel over civilian targetsd of Lebanon was aimed at two end (1) destroy the civil infrastructure and cause civilian deasths on a large scale (2) collective punishments as in Gaza for having elected Hizbullah. Israel lost because the Hizbollah proved that its strategy of digging in and attaking Istrael grounf forces in ambushed all along the Lebanon border was a far superior tactic. Israel has lost big time and as I have said Arabs who believed in the military invincibiliuty of Israel have bbeen shown wrong.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
But I think they can, and they learned a lot from this campaign. And I agree tha Israel lost. But they needn't have. They lost when they agreed to the UN Cease fire.


You are saying that Israel which has launched a most vicious campaign of using air force against civilians had any choice in the matter. For 33 days they tried and failed and agreed to ceasefire as there was no alernative. You can say that Olmert regime was incompetent to be defeated by a ragtag bunch of fighters and I think he will pay a heavy price for his military adventurism and failure. The world will prefer to see Plmert dressed in stripes doing time in prison for his war crimes in Lebanon.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
There is no amount of appeasement which would slake their thirst for infidel blood. To pretend otherwise is to be a fool.


Thinking the worst of then Moslem world is not sound politics nor is it a recipie for lasting peace. Moslems too seek an honorable peace in the Middle East which Israel and USA are thwarting.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
The fact that Israel restrained itself from completely leveling the entire country only proves that they also tried it the US way but that tactic just doesn't work. Hezbollah and the Lebanese people were plain lucky. Israel and the US were plain stupid for holding back.


This is the myth of "restraint" that is now being propagated. If you look at the campaign of bombing and wholescale destruction of civilian lives and property, I wonder whether you will speak of restraint. In fact the conduct of the Olmert regime qualifies for its arraignment before the International Court of Criminal Justice for WAR CRIMES.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Israelis said that they are fighting to get their soldiers back. They did not get them back Now over 100 Israeli soldiers are dead, 1300 Lebonese civilians are dead anmd over 30 billion $ worth of damage. I am reminded of what the great German stateman Otto von BIsmark said during the Russo Turkiss WAr of 1877: The war is not worth the bones of a Pommeranian soldier. I wish Olmert and his fellow Kadima colleagues have the wisdom of that long dead sateman.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
-Who advanced into who's territory?
-Who has driven the enemy back 18+ kilometers to the Litani river?
-Who has greatly reduced Hezbollah's ability to attack Israel by creating an 18+
kilometer neutral area that will be occupied by international and Lebaneze
forces?
-Who has sent a message to the rest of the Arab terrorist world that if you attack
it you'll be met with extreme force?


Now, looking at Hezbollah's stated objectives. Hmmm, let's see. The 'political' prisoners that they demanded be released in exchange for the two Israeli soldiers are still sitting in an Israeli jail and will be, most likely forever.

And the Sheba farms? Well, still in Israel's possesion and most likely will stay that way.


Keep in mind, this is a ceasefire, not a peace treaty. At best, it's an armistice, and as such it would not take much for both parties to resume hostilities, at which point Israel would show absolutely NO restraint. Only the complete and unconditional surrender of Hezbollah would end the fighting then.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
-Who advanced into who's territory?
-Who has driven the enemy back 18+ kilometers to the Litani river?
-Who has greatly reduced Hezbollah's ability to attack Israel by creating an 18+
kilometer neutral area that will be occupied by international and Lebaneze
forces?
-Who has sent a message to the rest of the Arab terrorist world that if you attack
it you'll be met with extreme force?


Now, looking at Hezbollah's stated objectives. Hmmm, let's see. The 'political' prisoners that they demanded be released in exchange for the two Israeli soldiers are still sitting in an Israeli jail and will be, most likely forever.

And the Sheba farms? Well, still in Israel's possesion and most likely will stay that way.


HEY Booho, why don't you answer UBob? He made some pretty good points on blowing yours out of the water.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who advanced into who's territory?
-Who has driven the enemy back 18+ kilometers to the Litani river?
-Who has greatly reduced Hezbollah's ability to attack Israel by creating an 18+
kilometer neutral area that will be occupied by international and Lebaneze
forces?
-Who has sent a message to the rest of the Arab terrorist world that if you attack
it you'll be met with extreme force?


First, the capacity of the Hizbullah to strike has not been dented to the extent that the Israelis believe. And as fAr as their political profile is concerned Israel's misadventure has made the Hizbullah even more powerful. As far as the diisarming is concerned the Hizbullah Militia will be merged with the Lebanese Army with a Hizbullah as Minister for Defence. So the fact is that the Israelis have made it easier for the Hizbullah to operate.

Advaning upto the Litani River is hardly victory. The Israelis could not have held that territory. Remember that the Israeli army was pushed back in 2000.

As far as sending a message is concerned the Arab world is even more incensed at the behavior of the USA and its surrogate in the ME and therefore extreme force is not something the Arab world worries about. They will face it and inflict unacceptable damage on Israel and its allies.

Shebaa Farms will be returned it is only a matter of time and yes the Hizbollah wanted a prisoner swap and after a 33 day war it will happen.

The points made by UBoB reminds me of a proverb: One falls into muck and then start crowing that the Turban is clean.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is a great world, where people can go about posting articles and replies defending those who started the problem using the excuse of the excessive force of the defending side. Funny how being bad is a good thing and being good is a bad thing. You guys are doing a great job defending Hezbollah and Hamas.

I guess it doesn't matter that you use terrorist tactic, kill innocent people on purpose, preach the destruction of an entire country and constantly threaten those who are their allies, you are only defending what you believe in while the others are using excessive force cause they think they are more powerful than anyone.

Imp, I'm proud to know that you are working to became a citizen on this US, a country you speak so greatly of.

Oh, BTW, again you can't convert and recruit those who are already of that mentality. They did not decide over night to become Hezbollah, Hamas or Al-qaeda fighters, they were born to do this.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
To: UBoB

Who advanced into who's territory?


Who was suckered into walking into the worst PR disaster in the history of the IDF?

-Who has driven the enemy back 18+ kilometers to the Litani river?


Who has used 30,000 men and however many tanks and warplanes to progress less than 20 miles into a nation against which no war has been declared, has suffered casualties far higher than it was ever dreamed was possible, and still has not secured its stated aims?

Who has greatly reduced Hezbollah's ability to attack Israel by creating an 18+ kilometer neutral area that will be occupied by international and Lebaneze forces?


You think the French are going to 'secure' the border? The French? As for the Lebanese 'Army' - you might as well call it Hezbollah On Parade.

-Who has sent a message to the rest of the Arab terrorist world that if you attack it you'll be met with extreme force?


Have you actually followed any of this story, or are you simply making it up in the shape you'd like it to have as you go along? An entire generation of Lebanese youth has been recruited to Hezbollah's standard - it's standing in the Arab world has never been higher. And as for the two Israeli 'soldiers' still held by Hezbollah... Had they had the decency to die in the original firefight rather than allowing themselves to be captured, Israel would have had no justification for its invasion of Lebanon. If they aren't already dead, they deserve to be.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who was suckered into walking into the worst PR disaster in the history of the IDF?


Not too sure Israel cares about PR so this argument is pointless. No matter how much they tried to avoid civilian casualties, it was impossible and they knew it. But at least they tried, can't take that from them.

Who has used 30,000 men and however many tanks and warplanes to progress less than 20 miles into a nation against which no war has been declared, has suffered casualties far higher than it was ever dreamed was possible, and still has not secured its stated aims?


I guess everyone has their own way of seeing things.

You think the French are going to 'secure' the border? The French? As for the Lebanese 'Army' - you might as well call it Hezbollah On Parade.


Since when is France the only Int'l force out there? Hell, why would you even pick France of all countries? Did you post this just so this question would not be left out?

Have you actually followed any of this story, or are you simply making it up in the shape you'd like it to have as you go along? An entire generation of Lebanese youth has been recruited to Hezbollah's standard - it's standing in the Arab world has never been higher. And as for the two Israeli 'soldiers' still held by Hezbollah... Had they had the decency to die in the original firefight rather than allowing themselves to be captured, Israel would have had no justification for its invasion of Lebanon. If they aren't already dead, they deserve to be.


I guess Col is not the only one with rehtorics around here. I guess I will give you some as well. You can not recruit what was already part of something. These people did not become Hezbollah lovers and terrorist fighters over night. They were raised in this manner and their time would soon come. Cheering out loud for the Media does not make them new recruits, it only makes them noticeable.

Decency to die? Deserve to die? Oh yea, I forgot, you consider Israelis terrorist as well. But what can one expect from a person working on getting his citizenship from the same country he puts down every chance he gets. It seems that your ideas of how to fix the problems in the Middle East are not too far off from those of the terrorist. Kill them all and sort out the body parts later, or turn them all into black glass, including Israel, as you mentioned before. Way to go, you sure know how to solve problems.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hezbollah and the factions that Hate Israel and the United States are far stronger because they have won the hearts and minds of the average Moslem. This will be just like 1982 when the Israeli attacks CREATED Hezbollah. Those of you that support King George are truly in a different world. Today Bush was bragging about how he fought the Iraq War properly. Iraq is a DISASTER. NO MATTER WHEN we leave, that country will dissolve into a FULL SCALE CIVIL WAR that we will have made possible! The support for Bush and his policies drops EVERY DAY. He just keeps going in the same direction that created all the problems for our country. I hope the voters tell Bush and his GOP idiots that the game is over in November.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who was suckered into walking into the worst PR disaster in the history of the IDF?


Israel cares very little about PR and quite a bit about protecting their borders.

Who has used 30,000 men and however many tanks and warplanes to progress less than 20 miles into a nation against which no war has been declared, has suffered casualties far higher than it was ever dreamed was possible, and still has not secured its stated aims?


Loss of life is less important than protection of state. As for declaration of war, the two countries have officially been at a state of war since 1949. Aside from ceasefires there has never been a peace treaty/accord between the two, so yes, war was declared - 57 years ago.

You think the French are going to 'secure' the border? The French? As for the Lebanese 'Army' - you might as well call it Hezbollah On Parade.



Well if they don't 'secure' the border then Israel will have a great reason to kill a few frogs. That will make a great many Americans happy. I'd wager they'll be cheering the loudest.

Have you actually followed any of this story, or are you simply making it up in the shape you'd like it to have as you go along? An entire generation of Lebanese youth has been recruited to Hezbollah's standard - it's standing in the Arab world has never been higher.


As have an entire generation of Israeli youth been reruited to the standard of the IDF.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
leave it to Col Klink to again go off topic and post an irrelevant and stupid tirade. Thank god he does not pollute my blog or I would have to black list him. He is so monotonous.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Who won the War? Israel or Hezbollah" was the question of this Blog

My post #22 gave my answer - Hezbollah. Can you not READ Dr.Guy? You just do not like my answer or the reality of the situation!
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thinking the worst of then Moslem world is not sound politics nor is it a recipie for lasting peace. Moslems too seek an honorable peace in the Middle East which Israel and USA are thwarting.

I'm afraid there is precious little evidence of that. How I wish you were correct rather than a deluded apologist. I don't "think the worst of the Moslem world," Bahu, I just think the worst of the worst of the Moslem world.

My... what a collection of racist vituperation I've stumbled on here.

Rather comical, Emporer, considering what followed.