I'd feel uncomfortable when men would open doors for me...that just meant I'd have to wait at the door like a helpless, feeble invalid while he came around to do it for me.

I find it a bit sad you think this way, Angela. I don't think those who hold doors open are doing so because they believe the woman to be a 'helpless, feeble invalid' but just out of simple, decent courtesy.

I've always thought that good manners never go out of style, and that they help make the world a gentler kinder place.

Well said and I couldn't agree more.

I find it a bit sad you think this way, Angela. I don't think those who hold doors open are doing so because they believe the woman to be a 'helpless, feeble invalid' but just out of simple, decent courtesy.

I guess it's at that awkward time of getting to know someone, that awkward silence while he makes a point to take the extra 15 seconds to go out of his way to open the door I'm standing right next to.

But if my husband did that, now that we've long since overcome the awkward phase (I don't think there ever was an awkward phase with us) I'd be used to the door-opening and even consider it super-polite and take it as a sign of respect. But we're way too casual for formalities like that. Perhaps that's sad, but we're doin' all right, all things considered.

Ah, yes. The age old question of "Is Chivalry dead, or just on life support?"

My mother raised me in the old fashioned Southern tradition. She taught me the manners of a gentleman. If (or rather, when) I didn't use them, she beat me about the head and shoulder's 'til I did.

Seriously, I was raised to a particular standard - a female is a lady, until she proves otherwise. A lady should always be addressed with respect (yes/no Ma'am, nod, pay attention when she speaks, etc.). Opening doors, deferring order of precendence (letting the lady enter first or order first, as examples), and other examples of polite manners aren't to put down the lady. Au contraire! They're to lift up and honor the lady. A gesture of humility. An indication that you can actually think of someone other than yourself.

I've been married for eleven and a half years at this point. To this day, I still walk my wife to the car if she's leaving and I'm still at home. When we get to a store or an office, I open the door for her (and no, it's not just because she's usually got several of the kids hanging off of her). I still get glares from time to time, but I know that she secretly enjoys it. At least, she gets that knowing little smile when she thinks I can't see it.

I've related this incident before, but it still sticks in my mind as an example of how far common, decent manners have fallen. I was in Philedelphia, at the 30th Street train station catching a train back to Richmond after a business trip to New Jersey. There was a older (mid-40's) lady and her elderly mother. Her mother needed her assistance to even walk (and the aid of a walker, as well). The younger of the two ladies kept trying to juggle her mother and the doors at the same time, and failing. I first noticed them as I was crossing the street (a good hundred yards or more away). In the time it took me to cover the distance to the door, I saw no less than 4 able bodied men (and a couple extra women) walk out the door and make no attempt at aid. Several even looked straight at them as they came out the same door the ladies were trying to enter. When I got there, I held the door open for the ladies (and I was moving with the aid of a cane at this point, myself). When I cross the 10 feet to the inner door, and held it open for them to enter, I swear that the younger of the two ladies was going to have a heart attack on the spot. The look on her face was one of sheer incredulity. I wished them a good evening and safe travel and continued to where I was to board the train. As I walked away, the younger woman commented to her mother (and this is how I know it was her mother) "Momma, maybe there's hope for this world yet."

That incident (and all the smiles from the ladies at work when I hold the door for them) make the slaps (yes, I've been slapped (hard) for being a gentleman) and snide comments from other ladies (usually AFTER they walk through the politely held door), all worthwhile.

To get back to the point - ladies, when we gentleman try to do as Sally's friend's date does, it's not because we're weak, or Momma's boys. A good number of us were taught to treat women as ladies - as a means of honoring them.

Y'all take care now, ya hear?

I admit I'd feel uncomfortable when men would open doors for me...that just meant I'd have to wait at the door like a helpless, feeble invalid while he came around to do it for me. I can do without men opening doors for me,

For me, it isn't something I expect. I'm capable of opening my own door. However when a man does it, I do appreciate it. That doesn't mean I hang about waiting for them to do it. I could be there all day!

Men paying for dates? I was never comfortable with that either because I don't like feeling like a leech

I'm not always comfortable with that. I get the feeling some men feel they are paying for something else. Maybe that says more about them men I have dated though!

Then what good are men? For companionship, snuggling, sincere compliment showering, protection

Sounds good to me!

For myself, good manners are automatic; habit. Opening/holding the door for a lady is just proper manners

As they should be. They come naturally to me, and I don't understand how people can think they are an effort.

This modern world of ours needs more manners, certainly not less.

Agreed. *walks off grumbling about the youth of today*

People who carry on about people who have good manners are the trigger that makes me want to explode in their faces. What sort of upbringing does a person need to have to get to a mind set where good manners are a point of ridicule or are considered weird or creepy

I personally think these people are just stupid. Harsh but fair.

she became uncomfortable and defensive.

Yes she did. I don't know how to get her out of that mindset either.

As a nice guy I have been treated very horribly by women while treating them as a lady. I have been called gay (implying that it is bad in regards to my motive of dating) because I wouldn't be so quick to jump in the sack. In college that's a hard label to live down because it makes you want to rebel against your character to prove a point. But now that I am engaged to the most wonderful lady in all the world I am thankful for my chivalry and so is she.

Well I'm glad your story had a happy ending. By the sounds of that you was to good for them chicks anyway!

Sorry.....all those "Sarahs" were supposed to be "Sallys", and now it's not letting me edit

Umm are you sure? You were responding to her post I think? I agreed with alot you said.....

I've always thought that good manners never go out of style, and that they help make the world a gentler kinder place. Every man she meets is going to have a different view and upbringing, ect, so it's a game of roulette!

Good manners is something I am finding less often in men my age. They just don't seem to have it in them anymore. I can't blame them when they get responses like that though.

Send me the number of the guy so I can introduce him to my daughter. Wait, my daughter probably is too old for him...shucks! she's 35.

Hehe...I think he was 25, she after a toyboy?

Chaos Manager, you got my insightful just for giving that woman some hope! Thanks for sharing!

I'll hold a door open for anyone, male or female if for some reason they can't do it themselves, but as for standing when a woman enters the room, or don't start eating until they do, those things are just stupid. Have women come a long way, or not?

Another part of the problem is we don't teach our kids how to graciously accept compliments, gifts, or any other act of kindness. I remember when I was young, we used to hear "Christmas is the spirit of giving and receiving". Somewhere along the way the "receiving" part was deemed ungracious, so it was changed to, "The spirit of giving".

I think we have done our society a horrible disservice by demonizing any semblence of receiving. We have robbed ourselves by turning a source of happiness into a source of embarrassment.

Shame on whoever it was who was so short sighted about graciousness that they taught us to feel bad when someone does something nice for us.

#30 by Içonoçlast Thu, June 08, 2006 4:07 PM [Içonoçlast] ...but as for standing when a woman enters the room, or don't start eating until they do, those things are just stupid.

I couldn't disagree more. A show of respect is never "stupid". Sad that some people today think so.

I couldn't disagree more. A show of respect is never "stupid". Sad that some people today think so.

So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit!

What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid?

"Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock

Every man here knows it's true.

I live in a small town Missouri and manners were taught her when I was a kid ( are they now, I doubt it...). I was taught to treat a lady with respect, all the open doors, pull out the chair, etc. and I do it's ingrained.

I ventured out to Virginia Beach for about 5 years and found a whole different culture, I had been taught that all women aroud my age were named sweetheart and anyone older than me was M'am. Not so at the beach, I got slapped for both, look at like I was weird for holding a door open for a woman and the such....

I do still practice everything but the "Sweetheart" thing now that I'm back in Missouri and her it's for the most part accepted. Going out on a date though is always odd, many times I have to explain that getting the truck door and the such is respect for the lady and I don't expect anything in return. Most adjust and many are very surprised that some guys still do those things.

What I don't under stand in my little part of the world is why more guys don't give a woman the respect and simple chiveralry. It has gotten me more second dates than any amount of money spent. The girls are just amazed that I take the time to open doors, help them out of the truck ( it's quite tall) and refrain from kissing, or fondeling them on a first date. I figure it like this, If they don't like it, fine it don't hurt me a bit to move on.

In my current relationship with 2Step even after a year and a half I still walk her to the car, open the truck/car door and hand her in, open doors for her, get her chair, listen intently to her, and the like. She is a very independant and capable woman and needs none of it but, she appreciates it all the same.

And yes I'll even go out of my way to help someone male/female that is having problems with a door or whatever, and I always hold the door for those behind me and open the door and allow the womem to go through first.

It may be old fashioned but it's the way I was brought up and in my mind all women are queens and princesses and they will be treated as such. Even if they don't want it.

When Sir Walter Raleigh put his coat over a puddle so a woman wouldn't get her shoes wet, (as if the water didn't soak right through the coat), he was offering her some dick, but ever since, men and women have been under the delusion that he did it out of respect.

in my mind all women are queens and princesses

Those are British concepts. Raleigh was British. Ironic, huh.

#33 by Içonoçlast Thu, June 08, 2006 5:56 PM [Içonoçlast] I couldn't disagree more. A show of respect is never "stupid". Sad that some people today think so. So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit! What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid? "Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock Every man here knows it's true.

Ummm, no. Not every man thinks that way. It makes for funny humor, but not every man really thinks this way. Pretty pathetic really if a guy's entire life revolves around his sex drive. Some of us actually do believe in showing basic respect towards other people until they prove they don't deserve said respect.

Ummm, no. Not every man thinks that way. It makes for funny humor, but not every man really thinks this way. Pretty pathetic really if a guy's entire life revolves around his sex drive. Some of us actually do believe in showing basic respect towards other people until they prove they don't deserve said respect.

---MasonM

Precisely; well said. Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned.

but as for standing when a woman enters the room, or don't start eating until they do, those things are just stupid. Have women come a long way, or not?

--Icon

So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit! What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid? "Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock Every man here knows it's true.

---Icon

When Sir Walter Raleigh put his coat over a puddle so a woman wouldn't get her shoes wet, (as if the water didn't soak right through the coat), he was offering her some dick, but ever since, men and women have been under the delusion that he did it out of respect

----Icon


Small minded, bitter and petty words from a small minded, bitter and petty person. No wonder you're so loved around here. I'm not surprised you're an atheist.

Precisely; well said. Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned.

My point exactly.

Small minded, bitter and petty words from a small minded, bitter and petty person. No wonder you're so loved around here. I'm not surprised you're an atheist.

That's a bit harsh don't you think?

#37 by MasonM

#38 by Rightwinger

There you go, hoping to score (points) with the women.

Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned

So they earn respect before they earn it?

#40 by Içonoçlast Thu, June 08, 2006 10:57 PM [Içonoçlast] #37 by MasonM #38 by Rightwinger There you go, hoping to score (points) with the women.

Pathetic. So you simply try to invalidate another viewpoint in this manner? Sorry, but not everyone thinks or acts in the same way as yourself. Get over it.

Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned So they earn respect before they earn it?

Maybe you should get a dictionary and look up the words "offered" and "earned". They don't mean the same thing as you seem to think they do. I usually expect to see far better than this crap from you.
You tired from a long day or something?

No wonder you're so loved around here.

That's one of the reasons you're here? You proved my point.

Iconoclast--

So they earn respect before they earn it?

No, quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. They have my respect until they lose it. It's called having a belief in the worth of other people, rather than believing that other people are selfish, greedy pigs that are only out for themselves. While this may be true for some people (more than I would care to admit to), applying this standard to EVERYONE as the default position, is a bitter, lonely way to go through life.

I'd much rather go through life thinking the best of other people and be proven wrong on the occasions where I *AM* wrong. It's much easier on my emotional/mental state, as well as helping keep my blood pressure under control.

And, sadly, Iconoclast, in this thread alone, you've done a lot to lose the respect that I had for you.

You know what happens to small minded, bitter and petty people (to paraphrase RW's fine description)? They turn into small minded, bitter and petty OLD people. Think about Jack Lemon and Walther Matthau's characters on Grumpy Old Men. That's going to be you when you hit that point in life. That is, if the acidic outlook on life doesn't eat you alive before then.

I have to say that I do have a problem with me calling me 'love', 'sweetheart' and the like. i don't know why, it just goes through me. Especially with men I know, can't they just use me name?

Icon, I have to say its opinions like that, that make women react to badly when they are faced with good manners. Alot of the time we do think a man is thinking with his penis, and his actions, are just to get some action for his little guy later on. We don't respond well to that. Alot of the men here have proved that they are well mannered, and not driven by the little guy downstairs. I'm sure this is proven by just how much luck a man who behaves like that gets with the ladies. Or how little action they get, if that's all they are thinking about. Good manners should be just something you do, naturally, and you should have no motive for doing so.

And for the record it will take alot more than a guy opening a door for me to accept the offer of his dick.

I have to say that I do have a problem with me calling me 'love', 'sweetheart' and the like. i don't know why, it just goes through me.

It's condescending unless it's coming from someone with whom you have a close relationship. It's also very rude.

I have to share this with someone, about half an hour ago, I popped to the shops. I was walking down the street, and some dude drove past and popped his head out of the window, and shouted, "nice tits". Now some women can take things like that on the chin, but it completely infuriates me. Imagine if I saw a bloke walking down the street and shouted "small penis". How would they feel then!

Imagine if I saw a bloke walking down the street and shouted "small penis". How would they feel then!

Can I snicker about this?  Just a little?

So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit! What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid? "Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock Every man here knows it's true.

Iconoclast, at this point I'm ashamed I even know who you are.

That is exactly the attitude that is killing graciousness everywhere.

Simple human decency, yes, but not special treatment just because they're female.

And for the record it will take alot more than a guy opening a door for me to accept the offer of his dick.

We know that. It's called "flirting."