Draginol Draginol

Must strategy games have multiplayer?

Must strategy games have multiplayer?

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Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 

137,887 views 91 replies
Reply #51 Top
RE: Multiplayer

I have no love for cheaters, droppers, or general Asshats.....but I do like multiplayer.

I appreciate that you (Frogboy) have a personal bias towards what would acceptible/unacceptible in a multiplayer experience, and I can see that you are open to exploring options to implement it in GC2.

I do understand that, from a developer/publish point of view, MP can be a pain. But, some of us do like it (and are willing to pay for it).

EDIT: Rereading your final comments, can you please clarify something for me.... Will GC2 EVER have a Multiplayer Option, either through a patch or expansion?
Reply #52 Top
I like multiplayer. Perhaps it is the people you play with, and not the mode you are playing. Dont have a group of friends to play with? Use the forums. It is very easy. You will take a week or two to get a "steady" group of regulars, but once you do, you wont go back.

I am not the best TBS guy in the world, but even with very good AI (which Gal Civ has) once you learn the "trick" your chances of success are almost assured against even the best AI. That means removal from harddrive for me. Not so with Humans.

I am ashamed to admit it, but I played the heck outta MOO3. The single player was horrid. BUT I met a group of about 6 people on a fansite forum and we played for about 2 hours a night for many moths. We used teamspeak, timed turns, and if people dropped, the AI (even as horrid as it was) took over so you didnt have to start anew. It allowed you to save the games and load them up later. For me at least, MP made a horrid game very fun.

But GalCiv is not a horrid game. It would be great. Have an organizational service here where feedback could be reported on player drops and completed games. Have a toggle where a human playing on one end could turn on the AI for his team for a few turns while he goes out and has a smoke, goes to the fridge, or whatever - thus not interrupting the flow of the game.

I would LOVE to get my butt handed to me by some better players. It would be great fun. MP. Please.
Reply #53 Top
The way I read that they're looking for the best way to implement multiplayer without compromising the single player experience (and without the usual troubes inherent to TBS multiplayer) and are hoping to be able to implement it in the future (probably a good sitance into the future).

I think most of the people aren't so much opposed to MP as they are opposed to multiplayer taking precedence over single player in game design. As long as SP remains the focus of the game, MP is harmless enough.
Reply #54 Top
I enjoy MP but I completely agree with the points against it, and I'm glad it's not in GC2.
Reply #55 Top
to be honest i've never been a fan of online multiplay for many of the reasons listed in the journal entry, but also because this isnt the kind of game i'd play online anyway.. now a non online multiplayer player "Hot seat" game with alternating player turns on a single computer..YES..that I would play because we can always save and everyone can come back to it later and play it on the same computer at another time.

Also a LAN option is nice for a few locally networked computers..but online multiplay ick..save it for the shoot em ups.. theres enough bot users, and irate kids in need of a slap out there playing multiplayer online games as it is without destroying the atmosphere this excellant game produces by letting them run rampant over it online.

Oh and to the ship pack art question HELL yes.. would definitely buy something like that.
Reply #56 Top
I think most of the people aren't so much opposed to MP as they are opposed to multiplayer taking precedence over single player in game design. As long as SP remains the focus of the game, MP is harmless enough.


Exactly my thoughts, Vinraith. I wouldn't mind at all if GalCiv2 gets multiplayer added on; I might even use it every now and then. But I don't ever want such a feature implemented at the expense of compromising the singleplayer experience, and this is what usually happens with most games--particularly RPG and strategy titles.
Reply #57 Top
I don't give a damn about multiplayer. Never have, never will. In any form of game.

Mostly it's because it's REALLY hard to find someone to play against who's not a total ********. I get enough crap at work, I don't need it when I'm home playing a game. Also, it often takes time to set up the kind of multiplayer game you want to play, waiting for opponents who want the same game settings as you do, etc, you always have ******* who quit because they're losing (leaving you with an unbalanced game, so you might as well stop playing), or people for whom the idea of a 14 second rush is the ultimate kick (I HATE rushes. Yay, you won, wow, did you have fun in your 47 seconds of playing a game?) etc etc etc etc.

In a SP game, you can play what YOU want, don't have to put up with whining (well, outside the diplomacy screen anyways ), you can start immediately, and can play for as long as you want, and if you need/want to do something else, save and quit, nobody's hurt.

As long as the AI is as great as it is in this game, I have zero reasons to go multiplayer.

Having said that, I LOVE everything coop, and a coop ability (ie you and a buddy against four AIs) would be fantastic. I realise that that is exactly the same as a multiplayer ability, so I guess in the end I have no opinion for or against multiplayer. There, wasn't that useful?
Reply #58 Top
I think the problem with MP for a TBS is the waiting for the opponents turn. Now Civ IV has a simutaneous turn system thingy which personally i dont like but it does show some interesting ideas, HOMM is shipping with a ghost feature where you can use a ghost to harrass your opponent during their turn. One thing holding back GalCiv 2 for multiplayer is the ship design, simple answer why not make it so you design you're ships in your opponents turn. I know its a simple answer and only one answer to the miriad of problems there will be, but i suppose its a start.

Like i said before i tottaly agree with the MP not comprimising single player. And i also agree to the people who dont like the people they play on MP, but another answer to that is this very community. Reading these boards there is alot of like minded people who want to play GalCiv2 and are devoted to it and i think it a strong enough community to provide ample intelligent and mature players to test your skill against.

I probably wont use MP if it is implimented but i am not totally apposed to it because the PC market today seems to demand MP and if implimenting MP in an expansion or patch creates more sales of GalCiv2 for stardock and leads to more games and GalCiv3, 4, 5+ then i fully support it.
Reply #59 Top
My MP experience is similar to Brad's.
I will often not purchase a game made for MP. Even very good games, great for MP (such as AoW), are unusable for me; I want to have a quiet, mindless time of my own in front of my machine; I dont want to have to connect to the net and wait for people to submit turns. I would MUCH rather spend my money on good AI than on MP.
Thank you, Stardock!
Reply #60 Top
I rarely have 2 hours together to play a game, so SP is the only option for me. Thanks for providing a great SP experience. It is the only way I'd play even if MP was available.
Reply #61 Top

I'm a bit split between mp and sp games these days. On my consoles, I'm strictly a sp gamer. With the majority of my games are rpgs, action, platformers etc. On the computer I find when it comes to strategy games, I'm now moving more into the multiplayer side of it. Turn based games are the exception to me in some cases.



I haven't played a Civ 4 multiplayer game period since I bought it. One because I still suck at the game, and 2 because I really don't want to play for long hours when people take forever making a move.  I agree with Drag about how his multiplayer games work out.  If  the game has enough randomize factors, and some sort of rewards , or something. I'll play single player. TBS games with Mp seem to work if you have a good community, the people who play them for a living, not the people who scream and curse whenever something doesn't go their way.


Oh and about the political machine, for the first month or so I had it, I did look for multiplayer matches, but no one was on.

Reply #62 Top

Oh and about the political machine, for the first month or so I had it, I did look for multiplayer matches, but no one was on.

Precisely. As vocal as multiplayer people are, they don't have the numbers to justify the development unless you have a HUGE base of people. The Political Machine sold very well (if GalCiv II sells as many copies at retail as TPM in North America I'll be happy) and yet it was very hard to find opponents.

Reply #63 Top
I have to admit, your breakdown of multiplayer strategy matches you've played is spot on - I've given Warcraft III a crack online a few times, and every time I give up on it disapointed. I'm sure if I could get a good match, it would be entertaining, but a good match ahs proven hard to find every time I've attempted to get hold of one. This does however appear to be a strategy genre specific problem - I've played many satisfying FPS matches online (specifically Red Orchestra which has a fantastic online community). I'm not sure how the problems with online strategy gaming could be avoided, but until then I'll be depending upon single player, and GalCiv II has badass single player.
Reply #64 Top
 I would want a MP Expansion for GalCiv2. I do like the SP Experience of GC2 but I also would like to be able to play it online! GC2 is the only SP game I have ever bought and thats says a lot on how good this game is,  I usually won't consider buying a game that doesn't include MP! I currently trying to convince some of my Friends that I play online with to give GC2 a chance but its a up hill battle.

Low numbers in MP lobbies only shows part of the MP community.



-Direct IP games don't show up in game lobbies. I never go into game lobbies if I can help it, I meet my Friends online on MSN messenger and then we decide who going to serve and we go play. 



- Play By Email (PBEM) players, their games would never show up in a lobby they form their games in forum and then start a game when they are done finalizing the game settings.



-Hotseat is another MP option that would never show up in a lobby.



-Persistent Turn Based Server's aren't always publicly advertised in a Game lobbies.



-Local Area Network (LAN) games don't show up in a online lobby.



So you really can't judge how many players are playing a game online based just on its MP Lobby!!

Reply #65 Top

-Direct IP games don't show up in game lobbies. I never go into game lobbies if I can help it, I meet my Friends online on MSN messenger and then we decide who going to serve and we go play.



- Play By Email (PBEM) players, their games would never show up in a lobby they form their games in forum and then start a game when they are done finalizing the game settings.



-Hotseat is another MP option that would never show up in a lobby.



-Persistent Turn Based Server's aren't always publicly advertised in a Game lobbies.



-Local Area Network (LAN) games don't show up in a online lobby.



So you really can't judge how many players are playing a game online based just on its MP Lobby!!

Sure, you can't go purely by that. But the alternative of "Hey look, trust me, there's a lot of people who want MP" isn't very compelling either.

I don't like making major budget decisions based purely on gut feelings.  Any time one gets into a serious discussion on the size of the strategy MP market, you inevitably get its advocates saying that you can't trust any sort of measurable indicator of size of a given market but rather just their word.

I'm a multiplayer kind of guy and I am saying that there aren't a lot of people playing strategy games mutiplayer compared to single player and that those who do play multiplayer have been served plenty in the past few years while single player gamers have gotten the shaft.

Reply #66 Top

Wait TPM sold more so far then Galciv 2 in america? I'm pretty surprised , I guess the machine series is more known then Galciv at the time.



I think another good case about mulitplayer is that right now when I play casual games, such as Ticket to ride or Albatross 18, I really don't mind who I play with. As the games are simple enough and quick enough that it's hard for one person to ruin the game for me.



But when I play more competive or complex games, Rts TBS, etc. I want to play with good people at it. Not someone who will quit after 5 minutes or rushes every time. I think that once the galciv series becomes better known, maybe near the level of Civ, then multiplayer would be a good idea since the fanbase is big enough.

Reply #67 Top





Sure, you can't go purely by that. But the alternative of "Hey look, trust me, there's a lot of people who want MP" isn't very compelling either.
I don't like making major budget decisions based purely on gut feelings. Any time one gets into a serious discussion on the size of the strategy MP market, you inevitably get its advocates saying that you can't trust any sort of measurable indicator of size of a given market but rather just their word.
I'm a multiplayer kind of guy and I am saying that there aren't a lot of people playing strategy games mutiplayer compared to single player and that those who do play multiplayer have been served plenty in the past few years while single player gamers have gotten the shaft.



I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when it comes to making market decisions, since you're developing and publishing GC2 I image it's becomes even harder to decide what direction to go next $$$$$$$!! Yes single players have gotten the shaft in the past few years, but really so has Strategy MP gamers (with the one shinning exemption being Civ4  ) most Strategy games(Demos) I try out nowadays I becomes bored within hours and don't consider perusing it any further! I mean with this new trend in RTS games to play a full game in a half-hour or less does not appeal to me at all. I'm referring to "World in Conflict" that PC GAMER is calling the next big step in the RTS genera.. Age of Empires 3 was a joke, I was a HUGE FAN OF Age of Empires 2 and was utterly disappointed with 3.



I guess thats way a finally turned to a single player game like GalCiv2, the demo was terrific and left me wanting more! Even though I knew it didn't have a MP I decided to buy it, and I definitely don't regret doing so! Now I've learned all about Stardock and have become a fan of you're company, I can't wait to try out Society it's looking like (to me) that it is indeed the NEXT BIG STEP IN THE RTS GENERA!!!!!!! 

Reply #68 Top
Your not the only one who hated Aoe3, crappy online matchmaking system, pretty unbalanced. I haven't heard much about Society after it was first announced awhile ago, but it does seem interesting.
Reply #69 Top
For the love of sweet merciful heaven, I implore you to either vote "yes" or don't vote at all .

Skew the results!
Reply #70 Top
Just to add to the chorus...

My experience in multiplayer has also been bad especially for games that take a lot of time. It is so hard to avoid timewasters and impossible to align time with freinds to play - even on my LAN. I used to run a clan for star wars rebellion, but when you get some really good players, the game gets cheesy with nasty tactics.
Having said that, I do own an internet cafe and a lot of customers spend ages playing online role playing games, so there is a niche for some multiplayer games, but this isnt it.
Reply #71 Top
Multi-player is a nice option, but I hardly care if it's not included in a strategy game like this. I even have good friends that I can play these games with. We are fairly well matched in ability, and share the same tastes in games as well. We hardly ever do play these games together, however. When we get (virtually) together and decide on a game, it's always something relatively short like an RTS or FPS. More in-depth games like GalCiv2 just take far too long for multi-player.

RTS, FPS, and games like that are for when I want to play a multi-player game. When I can't (or don't want to) play with other people, I want something with dense game-play, something that can keep me absorbed for hours and hours over a period of days or weeks. GalCiv2 is that kind of game, and is why I like it.

I feel for the people who want multi-player though, esp. those who really like playing these games with other people. Good games like this don't come out very often. I imagine it can be frustrating when one does come out and they can't play it with their friends.

Too bad game companies don't have unlimited resources so that everyone's favorite features can be added without taking away from some other aspect of the game.
Reply #72 Top
I think the poll results speak for themselves... about 2:1 saying "No I would not pay for MP".

I would much rather have Brad (and team) working on the SP AI (and features) than have them working on MP.

And I completely understand Brad's point of view wrt have some kind of mearues. The whole 'trust me I know what I'm talking about' is just 'opinion' and as a business owner I don't see how Brad can justify adding MP without some kind of sense of the sales numbers backed by some kind of hard data. Development reources are very expensive, spending them in the right place at the right amount is a key business decision. And afterall Stardock is a business.
Reply #73 Top
about 2:1 saying "No I would not pay for MP".

Well, you are loking the wrong way: near one third of the people that have answered are ready to pay $20 for MP only. I guess it is a lot more that all previous polls made by Stardock on MP.

I think the poll is to check if there is enough interest, not to see if the majority want an expansion with MP only

Reply #74 Top
Quite possible Peace. Just thought the whole 2:1 thing was interesting. And the number of respondents is good too, which will give them a feel for wheither to go foreward with the whole MP thing.
Reply #75 Top
Thanks Draginol for putting the single player experience first! Way way too many games treat SP as a "training ground for multiplayer", with very little interest in providing a good gameplay experience. Even many reviewers ignore the SP aspect of games and focus on MP.

Most recently, I spotted this thread on the upcoming Dominions 3, where a player asks if the SP AI will be improved.
Link
The developer's response is, basically, no. It is what it is, and they have little interest in improving it. I had been ready to pre-order Dom3, but that just sunk my interest.

Personally, playing MP with some buddies would be great, but playing with anonymous players over the internet has no appeal to me at all. And since I don't have any buddies interested in TBS, MP has no interest for me at any price.