Must strategy games have multiplayer?

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Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 

137,853 views 91 replies
Reply #1 Top
There is, indeed, no love for the single player gamer these days. Thanks for being the exception.
Reply #2 Top
Just felt I should chime in with a "You are not alone." If I wanted to play a game with other people, I wouldn't be sitting in front of my computer.
Reply #3 Top
The thing is - I don't buy turn based games for multi-player...

I buy them so I can play them while I'm doing other stuff without having to worry that I'll be missing anything...

I know what you mean about bad Multiplayer experiences too... Since most of my friends have now moved on - (some to Americam even), and are now playing other games that I don't really have much interest in - (like the new version of Star Wars Galaxies) - I'm pretty bereft of people I know I can trust and would like to play games with... I'm might have gained a gir;firend since then - but she dosen't really like the same sort of games per se anyway...

The biggest problem I have for multi-player, is because I've no longer got my friends to play with - I will no longer play against other people (having been burned quite a lot by a lot of people in various games (in similar ways to those above)) in any game - be it an RTS or PvP in an MMORPG... I'd love to play an MMORPG with some other people - (note I said with - not against) - but there simply arn't any MMORPG's out there that I think are what I'm really looking for...

(Granted that means I've been designing my own for a few years, though I don't know if anything will happen with it - I've got the basic gameplay systems/mechanics sorted now though, so thats something ).
Reply #4 Top
I agree w/ Draginol; while it is nice to have multiplayer for those who want it, a 4X game should concentrate on single player. I, personally, don't play multiplayer because of my experiences with other games - none of which were positive. Plus, the way this game is designed it would be a real drag to play, waiting while the other player finished off his ship in the shipyard
Reply #5 Top
nice post Draginol.

I think the statistics prove your point. Overwhelmingly most people want to play single player games most of the time and not play multiplayer. However somewhat paradoxically people will often not buy a game that doesn't have it, even though its a feature they will NEVER use (or use very often).

To be honest, you have created a rich and challenging game in GalCiv2 (as I have shown on my own site www.waitingtoconnect.com) and I can forsee that I will continue to be playing this game for a number of years yet.

Ask my girlfriend, its hard to get me to play a game on an ongoing basis

Reply #6 Top
No. I hate multiplayer.. that's right.. you heard it here first... I absolutely hate multiplayer... that is why I love this game.. the AI is amazing... keep up the good work...
Reply #7 Top
If this was a FPS, or an RTS then yes, I would expect mp. But What I love about TBS is that I can get up, leave do somthing else and then comeback to it, which is somthing you could never do with FPS or RTS.

For me TBS is like slowly sipping a fine wine, I get to slowly savor the experience and contemplate what is going on in the game. I'm really excited by your idea on how to play mp with GalCiv, Brad! I think it would allow for that savoring and contemplating and to actually use stratedgy and not just twitch reflexs.

Oh, and by the way, way to stick to your guns and make somthing your proud of and somthing to just appease your (admittedly few) critics!
Reply #8 Top
Single player is all I play on the PC. I have zero interest in multiplayer. Thanks for a great single player game.
Reply #9 Top
Draginol, apperently what keeps you from having generally fun in multiplayer gaming is the lack of reliable and skilled opponents that you at leatst know a bit. There is a solution for that: why don't you join a clan?
There are clans for every strategy title and some are really great. Ideal for having fun and sharpening your skills without the %'s experience....
Reply #10 Top
There is, indeed, no love for the single player gamer these days. Thanks for being the exception.


I'll second that, Vinraith. I have neither the patience nor the inclination to sit around waiting for random strangers to join a game. And most of my friends (the ones that play strategy games, at least) are all on different schedules, and is therefore almost impossible to ever get together to play games head-to-head. It is with sincere appreciation and gratitude that I thank Brad for having focused on AI and the singleplayer experience for GalCiv 2.
Reply #11 Top
Computer games with multiplayer are just not fun for me, even ones like Magic the Gathering that are pure ports of offline multiplayer games. Ratchet & Clank 4 was ruined by going to multiplayer. I hear about the modders in Halo and the mandatory Ogre strategy in multiplayer Warcraft and I'm like, no way, people suck.
Reply #12 Top
I think theres needs to be some differentation here when discussing MP. I agree that in the main TBS games should be centred around the single player experience. But when discussing the negatives of multiplayer its imperetive to distinguish between online MP and LAN MP. As far as online MP, I could not agree more that 80% of experiences will be unrewarding due to a) the complex nature of the games, b) the long time taken to play the game, and c)the fact that there are a large number of idiots out there and they own computers - these combine to mean that the chances of the strangers you meet in the online community being "on your level"or "willing to play a long protracted campaign" are slim at best - but this is not a reason to cast aside MP. The LAN experience is a very different one - small groups of like minded "friends" who are commited to playing TBS games can be some of the most rewarding game experiences - there are both cooperative and competitive elements to the game. Some games can last for days and it takes a commited group of fans to see it through - this is more simply achieved with friends because its just easier to understand and communicate the experience each person is looking for.

Im sure HOI2 would not be recorded as one of the MP success stories of all time, yet many times I have collected together a group of gamers who will play the game for days - and its very much fun. Recently we resumed a game as the allies we hadnt played for months - TBS has that ability, you dont have to finish the game in one sitting. The online facility allows players to get together without having to physically be in the same place - it takes organisation and a hell of a lot of patience - but it works.

Most LAN parties we have there will be one TBS played for a large portion of the day and then some FPS, RTS, and RPG games to mix it up so people dont get bored

I enjoy the single player experience of TBS, but there becomes a limit where the thought of beating the AI in yet another Ironman way just doesnt get you there anymore

in the end it comes down to you may have a great SP game - but no-one to share it with, even telling someone seems a bit lame, "you had to be there"

but a shared game experience will be told and relived again and again

the shared experience is always the greater

people who play alot of TBS games will understand the limitations of the AI before they even start the game, strategically the AI will never come close to a human opponent, because the human will act in unpredactable ways - even if that involves 'spitting the dummy' and quitting after you sink their aircraft carrier fleet. - playing a stranger over the net - you arnt going to be laughing or reliving too many memorable gaming moments either so in that way online MP is a bit like singleplayer, just without any consistency.

In summary TBS games are never going to command the online numbers of something like D2 or WoW (although many find these can become negative experience also - alot of people need to spoil others fun to enjoy themselves it would seem - and anti social behaviour is disproportionatly common in net communities) But small groups of dedicated fans will want to play these games MP with friend - like a board game but more complicated than a board game could ever be. Those people will look at TBS games without MP and think ... well at time x Im going to be bored with the AI and the novelty has worn off and I'll be looking for something else to play - I do get out old SP games and install and play them but its very rare and usually only for a couple of hours before the old boredom appears. D2 Im still playing at LANs but wouldnt even think of touching it SP - theres the difference in longevity.


edit:and no ones taking points from oblivion - except the people like me who didnt buy it because I could see how quickly it would get boring without MP

the only people who wont think MP is a good idea are those "Johnny no mates" who dont have friends that play TBS games
Reply #13 Top
Honestly, multiplayer in a strategy game in a very mixed bag for me. I've played a whole crap-ton of real-time strategy games and a handful of turn-based strategy games over the last year (and before then, but for the sake of scope, I'll limit to a year). Here are the ones I can think of off the top of my head: Age of Empires 3, Dawn of War (and its expansion pack), Act of War (and its expansion pack), Command and Conquer Generals, Earth 2160, Rise of Nations, the Rise of Legends beta, and Warcraft 3 (and its expansion pack). For the TBSs, I've played Civilization 4 and Galactic Civilizations 2.

The reason I list all of these is not to sound like the complete uber-nerd that I really am, but so that people can truly understand my meaning when I say that of all the above listed games, I have only bothered taking three of them online; Warcraft 3, Dawn of War, and Age of Empires 3. I gave up on Age of Empires 3 after a horrendous first match, a decision which was aided by its piss-poor online game management. Dawn of War seemed to have a decent system, but I just didn't enjoy playing the game outside of the single-player experience (skirmish or campaigns). These three games, for me, are the pinnacle of RTS gaming over the last three years, but yet I still only play a single title online: Warcraft 3. WC3 is one of the most difficult online games I've ever played. It seems like all the players are fantastic and that I never have a chance to play with the "big dogs," but the ease of getting into games was so painfree that I stuck with it... And, as of now, I've played the game more than any other RTS combined since Starcraft and Warcraft 2. The continuity between thes games (I also played Starcraft online a lot) is that Blizzard really knows how to make getting into an online game quick and easy... But their stat-tracking utilities are also fantastic. Battle.net keeps track of so many stats for every account, and yet the online gameplay is so smooth and lag-free that, at times, I hardly feel like I'm really playing against other live opponents. This fact alone has kept me playing Warcraft 3 longer than any other game in my history of gaming has.

That all said, I find that the online component of an RTS/TBS isn't always necessary. If it means that I don't get the bare minimum of multiplayer but I, instead, get a fantastically entertaining and replayable single-player game... Then count me in. If the game begs for a multiplayer mode, make a patch to add the feature in. Or even make it a full-featured expansion pack that I have to play. The truth is that, if I feel a game is worthy to be taken to the online arena and if the system for playing online has been given an abundance of thought then I'll gladly pay the extra fee. That said, making this same feature a pay-to-play kind of thing would completely turn me off of the idea entirely.

Probably didn't answer any questions with this, but I thought I'd get this long-overdue rant out of my system.
Reply #14 Top
I would like to say that I would like to multplay games and, in fact, have just biught Guild Wars - on on-line RPG.
This is a free, no charge lay on-line game after the fashion of Everquest but without monthly fees.

After playing for 12 hours I can safely say 'It sucks' - as is usual with this type of game you MUST form a party if you expect to be able to achieve advancemennt to higher levels (harder monsters to kill etc).

Well as I found in Everquest its mnot possible to finnd any sane-minded responsible individuals to form a team with. Those who have been playing since day 1 are unwilling to allow 'noobs' to join their precious group - the remainder are IMHO start string bonkers - judging from their antics on screen.

So multiplayer, IMHO, is not for me.
Reply #15 Top
I don't care much about multiplayer too for TBS games. I DO however really like to play Age of Wonders PBEM games. And I really enjoy playing Civ IV succession and PBEM games. Come to think of it, I think GalCiv succesion games would work really well too.

So if one day PBEM could be added to Galciv I'd be a very happy person. But that's about the only multiplayer I would play. I wouldn't play onlinegames, simply because they take waaaay too long.

The only online gaming I do is simracing. But only with a very nice community, with people I know who race fair and square.
Reply #16 Top
The post brought a tear to my eye...

...Not really, but I completely agree. Many of us don't like multiplayer, and I for one am grateful that you put the effort into developing the SP features first. I like to play video games to relax and get some alone time. I have more than enough real life friends, and I work with people all the time, so its nice to play by myself for a while. That, and I like to finish games quickly, which MP isn't really the best at (unless its a FPS).

Oh, and...

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.


Reviews like these are the reason I don't buy PC mags anymore. I just don't trust reviewers at all. I either play demo's or get advice from friends who already have. They know what I like, and their opinion is much more important to me than some anonymous writer.
Reply #17 Top
Personally I think TBS games are pretty terrible for multiplayer because of many of the reasons posted. The problem is with TBS games the AI is always so poor that the only way you can play the game against a decent opponent is by going through the multiplayer minefield.

Hopefully Gal Civ 2's AI will change this...

Lenius.
Reply #18 Top
I would venture to suggest Trent that for the reviewers who take off points for multiplayer, online play = multiplayer. Not to say that your points aren't valid but I doubt a dveloper would gain much by including a LAN only multiplayer feature.

I personally don't use multiplayer. I am an avid board gamer and wargamer and for me that is multiplayer. Games are what I do when I don't have anyone around for either of the above.
Reply #19 Top
The thing about multiplayer isn't whether it is a good idea or not to develop but if you can make it work.

The only reason SD shouldn't develop MP is if they aren't up to the task of making it a success. In this chance they clearly aren't confident enough that it will work to everyones benefit, and that to me I can respect. After all professional pride says that you should start to do something unless you can make a half decent hack at it. MP is one of those things that can be hit or miss. If you develop a streamlined easy to use and effective MP system then MP becomes viable, if not then people get pee'd off with the system and claim its crap and start using it.

The game itself isn't an issue, I think GalCiv2 can easily be ported into a MP game. But the trick with be to make that MP workable for the players and making sure it isn't poor. Poorness will come from poor MP coding that causes client crashes, desynchronization, packet loss etc... It also means cheating, and the old favourite of mine, cable pulling. MP isn't just online, it means LANS as well. I couldn't imagine anything cooler than sitting a few of my friends around my house for an all night session of bash the Dreguin as the Torians, Humans and Arcean and Altarians. I remember playing CnC Generals round one of my friends one MAX difficulty at a LAN party and I can tell you that was more fun than any single player game EVER!

But thats properly because that was a RTS and not a TBS game. TBS require time and patience. But even a short game in MP could be fun.

Personally if I had to develop MP for GC2 I'd implement a auto turn feature and a AI take over feature like in MOO3. If a player disconnects or wants to join the game in progress they can join an exist empire or leave the game letting the AI take over the control of the empire. This would stop some disappointing game where players just f* off after the first 10 minutes. I'd also have admin transfer so the admin could leave the game and someone else got admin controls.

The admin would have the ability to set the game status to open and allow someone else to hop into an AI players shoes and take over. These kind of things have already been developed and help keep the game running even if everyone but one player leaves.

I'd also allow game saving and loading, so that players could reload a previous MP game and slot the players into the various sides. I'd also allow the admin to insert a brand new empire into the game and set them to invincible for X number of turns to allow them to get somewhere before fighting etc...

This is exactly what I mean about MP client writing, writing a simple bog standard client won't wrk, you need to have failsafes and features in it that can help keep a game rolling ever after people start to leave.

Anyway thats just my opinions. I'd like to say a MV MP so that empires and and players can duke it out in all GalCiv2s glory.

Ciao

-J
Reply #20 Top
What keeps Civ3 and civ4 on my PC isn't the multiplayer but MODS. It doesn't take long for multiplayer to get old after playing a few games. I have a feeling it the same with most gamers
Reply #21 Top
"the only people who wont think MP is a good idea are those "Johnny no mates" who dont have friends that play TBS games"

I have two friends at work and a brother who play Civilization and Galactic Civilization for hours and hours and even they could not have good multiplayer with me. One hits the "End Turn" button over and over till he has enough money to buy ships, one never plays any setting but Gigantic/Cakewalk, and my brother plays Civ to relax, not to optimize. He doesn't like Emperor. So I can't play against any of them. They do have a local area network set up for Halo tournaments, but I suck at that game.
Reply #22 Top
What keeps Civ3 and civ4 on my PC isn't the multiplayer but MODS.


Absoloutely, I think mods allow for a good online community, and lengthen a games lifespan. I've quickly become tired of some of my multiplayer games, yet many SP games remain on my hard drive, including the Civ series, and Morrowind.
Reply #23 Top
Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.


Try with the average MP game to find a couple opponents two years after release.
Reply #24 Top
Good online multiplayer can be frustrating when playing with random idiots.

Get a good guild, or a good group of friends, and it becomes a much more rewarding experience. Multiplayer is basically social interaction - one needs someone one likes for that to be fun.

Many a game is still being played because of the social interactions with friends dispite the game having got a little old.

I would much rather be playing GalCiv2 with even one friend also in the game; high quality AI computer players would make this a lot more fun, as it would not be necessarily PvP as such, at least until late game.
Reply #25 Top
I'm with you Brad!

People Suck! That's why I play computer games ...

Actually if GalCiv had play by email, I would be all for that. I have no idea how this could be effectively implemented, especially in the early game. Maybe email games would have all players start with 5 planets and a bunch of ships or something.

That's the only multiplayer I would be interested in. Strangers suck, and I can't count on 4 or 5 people being able to coordinate their schedules for 8 or 9 hours.

Dano