Except I don't "know" any of that from this or any other poll, davad. And your characterization of what I would have soldiers do is yours, not mine.

How exactly would you go about "knowing" this information? Or is it just irrelevant information?

My apologies if you took that as what you personally would have soldiers do, that wasn't my intention. I was referring to the administration.

We say lots of things, davad, but when push comes to shove we often do something altogether different. The poll information should perhaps be taken by the brass for what it's worth and factored into their command decisions in some way, I suppose, as it relates to the potential need for boosting morale, but if Patton or Bradley or Montgomery had relied on such information in their decision-making in prosecuting the war, the outcome of WWII might have been considerably different.

And without meaning to be too callous about it, in a way it is irrelevant information. Even the HooAh stuff. For better or worse, our troops volunteered to do a job when called upon. A tough, demanding job, one that could get them killed. A job we should all be grateful and thankful to them for accepting. Given the physical and emotional stresses placed upon soldiers in the midst of a hot war, especially in an environment like Iraq, I'm not sure of the usefulness of this kind of poll information, except as it relates to the support the line command can provide them. We owe a great debt to all who serve and we should never dismiss out of hand the perspective or opinions of our soldiers in harm's way - but I don't believe we should play politics with those opinions, either. Furthermore, it is up to the line command to lead, regardless of the misgivings or personal opinions of the troops under command, and to accomplish the mission, whether because of or in spite of the morale of the troops.

For Active Duty troops in WWII and Korea, a "tour" was 3 years, so unless your tour looks like it's going to be longer than what they had to deal with, I'll just take it as normal soldier griping."

and "enlistment or draftees were in "for the duration"of the war

We owe a great debt to all who serve and we should never dismiss out of hand the perspective or opinions of our soldiers in harm's way - but I don't believe we should play politics with those opinions, either.

But it's okay to play politics when sending them into combat!

I give the opinion of a Soldier who's been to Iraq a lot more credence than I do the opinion of a TV pundit perched in a pricey plush chair inside a nice air-conditioned building with his thinning hair in a comb-over and wearing a several thousand dollar suit.

Right on, Texaii!

But it's okay to play politics when sending them into combat!

Apparently (to you) it's ok to play politics when speaking out against the war. So I guess it's ok to be political if your talking about cutting and running, but not if you're talking about actually finishing the job we sent them there to do.

Don't you dare EVER tell me you support the troops if you are willing to sit there and tell us that this means they are unwilling to finish their mission!!!!!

Don't you dare EVER tell me you support the troops if you are willing to sit there and tell us that this means they are unwilling to finish their mission!!!!!

I assume you're referring of the 58% who clearly understand the mission? Or are you referring to the 90% who might think the mission is done since Saddam is gone and they believe the war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11?

Was there any question about what the mission was when you were in Iraq/Kuwait? Did you serve with anyone who didn't know what their mission was there? I'm guessing a poll of soldiers in Desert Storm wouldn't have revealed similar numbers to what this poll did.

Any thoughts on why that might be?

No, that picture is not to represent a depressed soldier. Perhaps a tired one, but not depressed.

---davad

Then it doesn't fit in very well with the article, if you ask me.

John Zogby, CEO of the polling company, said the poll was funded from an anonymous, anti-war activist.
Isn't this the same guy whose poll said that John Kerry would win the election?
It's not like this poll was conducted by PEW or PIPA

John Zogby, CEO of the polling company, said the poll was funded from an anonymous, anti-war activist. Isn't this the same guy whose poll said that John Kerry would win the election? It's not like this poll was conducted by PEW or PIPA

davad & steve seem to have simply unquestioningly accepted this poll as fact (or chosen to pretend to for purposes of argument).

But it's okay to play politics when sending them into combat!

Nice cherry-picking there, steve, but as Para said, it cuts both ways.

while people who've never stared down someone who wants to kill them tell them what the discussion should be about.

well...cheney has only so many open slots in his hunting trip schedule.

kb - even Leno's given up on Cheney jokes.

even Leno's given up on Cheney jokes

that's why i like letterman and conan.

---davad Then it doesn't fit in very well with the article, if you ask me.

Well, I don't think I did ask you. A picture of a tired soldier doesn't fit in an article about them wanting to come home?

I think you'll find the content of this poll to be a bit skewed. From Zogby's own page:

The poll was conducted in conjunction with the Center for Peace and Global Studies at Le Moyne College, a Catholic school in Syracuse, New York. While the center promotes the study of conflict around the world, it is not an anti-war organization. Over the years, critics of Zogby have wrongly asserted that the firm produced poll results for clients that reflected what they wanted or hoped to receive. What has been ignored in those assertions is that while clients often release to the public that data which pleases them, they often withhold data that does not serve their ends. The result is a false perception that Zogby only produces results that casts their clients in a positive light. Such a false perception is fodder for those who, in their roles as advocates for this cause or that philosophy, apparently cannot fathom that a public opinion research firm could conduct unbiased research.

---davad Then it doesn't fit in very well with the article, if you ask me. Well, I don't think I did ask you. A picture of a tired soldier doesn't fit in an article about them wanting to come home?

davad....we've had this discussion before. In all acuality you "did" ask him. When you post something like this in a public place you "are" inviting public comment! If you do not want public comment either:

a) do not post or.....

b) disable comments.

I think you'll find the content of this poll to be a bit skewed. From Zogby's own page:

There's nothing in what you pasted that shows anything about this specific poll being skewed.

There's nothing in what you pasted that shows anything about this specific poll being skewed.

---davad

So then if that's true, all the others could have been? Why not this one, too?

Well, I don't think I did ask you. A picture of a tired soldier doesn't fit in an article about them wanting to come home?

---davad

Thanks, drmiler, but I think I'll take this one myself.

A picture of a weary soldier placed at the top of an article about how they just want to go home is not there simply for looks. It may just be the picture of a weary soldier grabbing a power nap, but it LOOKS like he's downhearted and depressed about where he is and just wants out.

A simple picture of a smiling Jewish grandmother stirring a steaming pot could easily have been used to spread propaganda. Perhaps she's cooking German children? Maybe it's a symbolic image; she's stirring up the German people or economy in a manipulative way, smiling evilly as she does it? A picture may not always be worth a thousand words, but it sure can borrow a couple bucks.

Your article wasn't about tired troops who don't get enough sleep; it was about unhappy troops who want out of Iraq.

So then if that's true, all the others could have been? Why not this one, too?

Did you actually read what he pasted? It actually does more to show that the results are NOT skewed. What evidence do you or drmiler have to show that this poll is skewed?

None

Your article wasn't about tired troops who don't get enough sleep; it was about unhappy troops who want out of Iraq.

Don't come here and tell me what my own article is about.

This article is about the poll results and troops wanting us to withdraw from Iraq within a year. I didn't say anything about soldiers not getting enough sleep. They're tired. Tired of being away from their families, tired of getting their deployments extended, tired in a lot of ways.

What evidence do you or drmiler have to show that this poll is skewed? None

---davad

If I misunderstood his comment, I apologize; but your evidence of its absolute accuracy? None.
All polls can be skewed according to the views of those who order or generate them. They all have margins for error, some greater than others.
I mean, just as a simple, completely unrelated example, look at the Neilsen Rating system.
It's a poll; one person stands for what, a hundred thousand? Some great TV shows go down in flames while other simpleminded drivel soars and lasts for years if the right people are watching it.
No poll is completely accurate, and those who slavishly adhere to their results are nothing more than raging idealogues for their own beliefs.

Don't come here and tell me what my own article is about.

---davad

Then don't use a picture of one thing that may or may not indicate another.

This article is about the poll results and troops wanting us to withdraw from Iraq within a year. I didn't say anything about soldiers not getting enough sleep.

----davad

Did you read what I wrote?----

Your article wasn't about tired troops who don't get enough sleep; it was about unhappy troops who want out of Iraq.

I know perfectly well what your article was about.
I simply objected to your using, whether you consciously meant to or not, a propagandistic image to lend it meaning and gravity.

They're tired. Tired of being away from their families, tired of getting their deployments extended, tired in a lot of ways.

---davad

I'm sure they are, just as their fathers and grandfathers were before them. But I just wonder what the guy in the picture, if he knew, would have to say about being placed at the head of such an anti-Iraq War article?
Maybe he believes in what he's doing. Maybe he's in favor of his mission, and relishes the opportunity to bring democracy to that nation and to have it out with our enemies.
Maybe not...either way, neither you nor and I have any idea how he feels, and it was wrong of you to use that particular image at head of this particular article.

Did you see the movie Saving Private Ryan, davad?

Just wondering.

I also think it's funny how Zogby's blaming his clients for his polls being skewed.

If I misunderstood his comment, I apologize; but your evidence of its absolute accuracy? None.

I never said the poll's accuracy was absolute. I said it gives us more insight into how the soldiers actually feel than anything else I've seen.

Then don't use a picture of one thing that may or may not indicate another.

I used a picture that I thought represented a tired soldier. Tired in the senses that I stated above.

I know perfectly well what your article was about.

Apparently not.

I'm sure they are, just as their fathers and grandfathers were before them. But I just wonder what the guy in the picture, if he knew, would have to say about being placed at the head of such an anti-Iraq War article? Maybe he believes in what he's doing. Maybe he's in favor of his mission, and relishes the opportunity to bring democracy to that nation and to have it out with our enemies. Maybe not...either way, neither you nor and I have any idea how he feels, and it was wrong of you to use that particular image at head of this particular article.

Let's not get into the multitude of differences between this war and previous wars. It's a different war, these are different times, and these are very different soldiers.

Maybe he is in favor of the mission, but maybe he's not. And from looking at the poll results, maybe he doesn't even know what his mission is.

I would have never used a picture showing the face of a soldier, if I had I could maybe see your point to a degree, but I didn't.

Did you see the movie Saving Private Ryan, davad? Just wondering.

Yes, I have seen Saving Private Ryan.

I also think it's funny how Zogby's blaming his clients for his polls being skewed.

Come on Daiwa, you know that's not what he's doing. People pay his firm to do some of these studies. When they are done, they own the results. They are free to release or not release portions of it.

I've gotta run. I'll be back to finish off you war-mongers later!