HOT HOT HOT!

She can't take it anymore, Captain!

As some have noticed, we've been pretty much living in the forums.  The support team has been keeping statistical track of how many users run into problem X, Y, Z.

In our non-game stuff, any serious problem that affects more than 1% of the user base is considered serious. Anything that affects more than 5% of the user base is considered critical.

One problem that has fit just over the serious but just below the critical has been game crashes.  And the logs have confused us because they don't make sense.  Why would these people have the game crash? Crashing should be reproduceable to some extent.

And yet, here we are with about 2.5% of users running into interittent crashing. 

The update (1.0D1) made the game better for most people because it fixed bugs that were found. But for some people, it actually crashes on them more than 1.0D - digital release).  Why? We had done some performance optimizations but it's really straight forward stuff.

But then..

Hmm...

During development, one of our mantras was to force everyone to run and test on lower end hardware so that we could "know their pain".  Too many games come out these days that require state of the art hardware to run.  So we mostly played and tested on lower end hardware. (not exclusively by any means, I did all my AI testing on a state of the art machine with an ATI X1800 in it).

But we noticed something in the logs -- most of the people who had these random crashing issues had really REALLY good computers.  A statistical anomaly.  A couple of people noted that the game runs their GPU very hot. VERY hot.

This week I've been playing the game and monitored the temperature on my ATI Control Panel applet (which, coincidentally, is built using licensed Stardock technology from the other side of the company <g>).  My GPU's temperature was 85C!  That's really hot!

But it's no biggie for me.  I have a Dell, it's got 50 fans on it. But what would happen on a machine that wasn't as well vented? I know what would happen: The game would start crashing -- randomly.  And it would happen relatively quickly because it reaches that high temperature within 10 minutes give or take.

So why don't other games do this?  That depends on the game of course.  Some games, like Halo, throttle their FPS. Other games simply don't use nearly as many video card features do.

I know strategy games are notorious for crappy graphics, but GalCiv II uses it all. I mean ALL OF IT.  Specular Lighting? Check. Bump Mapping? Check. Zillions of lighting passes? Check. Stuff I don't even begin to understand? Check.

If you read the entry that showed a screenshot of that Bird of Prey in teh game, that should tell you somethign about the engine.  One of my graphics guys told me that model may have over a million polygons.

The art team found a whole bunch of Star Trek models that were designed for video production (i.e. NOT for being displayed in real time).  They literally had 20 different ships in the game, each with an absurd number of polies. They ran.  To put it in perspective, a typical ship in GalCiv II only has around 600 polygons.  So there is a lot of room to grow.

Which brings us back to our heating problem.  What can be done?  The answer it seems to me is frame rate throttling.  So that's what I did:

if(ulElapsedMilliSeconds < 10 && bThrrotleOoption == TRUE)
    Sleep(5);
EnterCriticalSection(&g_csD3DDevice);
Draw3D();
LeaveCriticalSection(&g_csD3DDevice);

By doing this, my temperature stayed at around a more normal 65C.   We could probably be even more stringent.  I mean, if the time between the last frame is less than 10 that means the game's running at >100fps.  Realistically, anything over say 40 to 50fps is probably pointless.

But this way, people's machines will stay cooler.  And there will be another benefit: Laptop users again.  I'd like to put in a thing that lets us REALLY throttle it for low power usage.  I.e. >25fps is throttled (optionally).  This way, I could play the game on my ThinkPad all the way from Michigan to California on a plane trip.

 

55,472 views 45 replies
Reply #2 Top
Very interesting. I know my 9800xt isn't considered top of the line anymore, but my random crashes do not seem to be related to heat. They're just totally random without any good debug info.

I would like the option to reduce the texture passes and whatnot and to give me more control over the graphics end, but I can wait.
Reply #3 Top
I have had my laptop crash 3 times in the last 72 hours (it never crashed before) that I have had GC2 installed. All three issues related to extreme heat - I thought it might be related to the RAM upgrade I recently had, but if GC2 is responsible for heating it may have done some part of it too. When are you releasing a patch for this? I've still got those goody-two-shoes Altairians to crush under my iron heel!
Reply #4 Top
Seriously, does your computer have fifty fans? What's it really have?

I can imagine a couple 120mm fans for front and rear ventilation, blowholes, side intakes, side exhaust, gpu, cpu, memory, hardrives and in my wildest dreams I can imagine enough exhaust to lift my steel tower foot off my desk. I still can't imagine fifty fans, though.
Reply #5 Top
I have intermintent crashes and I've got 2 questions...

A. How do I tell that the heat applies to me?

B. How would I fix it?

GC2 is really a great game but all these issues are starting to wear on me.
Reply #6 Top
Heh. Maybe you should send a note about this to some of the hardware enthusiast sites. Those guys can always use another way to test the stability of their overclocks, and it probably wouldn't hurt sales if GalCiv II became part of the regular test suite. It would probably be the first time a turn based strategy game was considered for such use.
Reply #7 Top
Hmmm, this explains why when I spend most of my time in the zoomed out map mode I only crash rarely on the ship development screen as opposed to when i'm down in the close views.

Reply #8 Top
The other aspect to this is - where does the heat come from? Answer: electricity. If you are pushing your GFX card hard enough to get it to 85C, you are pushing the limits of both the card and the PSU. I am thinking that some PSUs just cannot handle the load on a continuous basis.
Reply #9 Top
on my laptop, it wouldnt crash, but the GPU (when sighted with a laser thermometer) was extremley hot, what my laptop did was start having the screen jumping, so like on minute my starbase is there and the next frame, the pirate ate it.
Reply #10 Top
Chiming in on an earlier reply to this.

For us non technical guy's

1) How do we tell if it's heat related?

2) How do we fix it? Or is a patch needed for this?

Reply #11 Top

1) I can't tell you if a problem you have is heat related.  All I can tell you is that the game shouldn't be crashing on you -- at all.  I just finished a very lengthy game today and it was one big long game. 

You CAN however help us find out whether it MIGHT be heat related.  From Stardock Central, go to "Free Stuff". Download, install, and run Smart Exception. If the game crashes, it will create a log file which you can email to us ([email protected]).  Tell us what you were doing at the time and I"ll look into it myself.

2) 1.0X is due this Thursday.  However, if you would like to try it right now, let me zip it up here. NOTE that this is a beta. Just a sec..

 

Reply #12 Top

Okay, try unzipping this into your GalCiv2 directory BUT backup your galciv2.exe and lib3d.dll because who knows what this will do.

https://www.galciv2.com/beta/gc2test-0227.zip

The throttling is enabled but it's pretty mild but then again, I've only tried this on my machine so who knows...

Reply #13 Top
Brad . . in addition to being a stand up guy; you are one ballsy son-of-a-gun.

I wish I coulld move to Michigan. I'd work for you any day.
Reply #14 Top

Thanks.  And if nothing else, this EXE fixes that social production bonus some people have been yelling about. 

Sometimes, game balance has to win out over documentation. But having played it some, I don't think the social production bonus is going to lead to exploitation.

Now it is possible we may need to throttle the frame rat further down the line.  100fps is still pretty crazy.

Reply #15 Top
Hmmm...
/me strokes his Antec p180 case and its near-godlike cooling powers.

I've got a VisionTek x800XT (AGP) and I've seen 80's before as well. Apparently that's within spec for the latest cards. I guess I've kept good enough case cooling that I don't really run over the maximum tolerable level.

Then again... If the card has too many issues, that's what a lifetime warranty is for
Reply #16 Top

I got it up really hot tonight by just sitting on the shipyard screen with the design rotating.

I am convinced that on some systems, this is going to be an issue.  It's going to be an issue in other games too as they come out that use these new features in the cards.

Reply #17 Top
Frogboy,

You run an x1800 eh?

http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=206&cat=47&page=1
Reply #18 Top
Frogboy...I mean Brad, there are already games that can cause heat issues. Primarily the newer FPS engines. F.E.A.R is a good example of pushing ones system to the max. People actually blew out their vid cards and power supplies with this game on systems with poor components. FEAR would turn my system into a space heater. A number of titles now use frame throttling to control temp issues. These titles usually are throttled to 60fps.

Technical question: does running in windowed mode create more or less stress on the system? I'm not familiar with the pro's and con's of this feature from a technical standpoint.
Reply #19 Top
I will try this see if it stops my machine from lifting (ehh, when it get's hot it's fan's speed will be increased which sounds as it is about to be airborne )
And maybe it will stop the CTD's (sofar 3 lengty games with a CTD in each)
Reply #20 Top
I'm glad my Computer is box fan cooled so I don't have to worry about heat. It's not pretty but it works
Reply #21 Top
Ola Nordhus said:
Heh. Maybe you should send a note about this to some of the hardware enthusiast sites. Those guys can always use another way to test the stability of their overclocks, and it probably wouldn't hurt sales if GalCiv II became part of the regular test suite. It would probably be the first time a turn based strategy game was considered for such use.


That's a pretty good idea!
Reply #22 Top
Mine generally only crashes when I save the game. About every 4 saves or so, it crashes. Since it takes a half hour to load up an old saved game, that gets pretty annoying; but I hope this new patch will fix that. If you let me know where the error log is, I will e-mail that to you if you want.
Reply #23 Top
My framerate doesn't go above 60, it looks to be locked to the vertical refresh rate of the monitor (vsync'd). It does heat up the computer (bad case), but not any more than Half-Life 2 does. I like the smooth framerate, I'd hate to see any cap below that being hardcoded.
Reply #24 Top
My system would ALWAYS crash at the loading screen until I turned anti-aliasing to 0.
Since then I have only had one crash.
And by crash, I mean hard crash, as in power the PC off and back on.

I have an Old T-bird 1GHz system with a Radeon 9700Pro and I have had cooling issues with it before (specifically, the FEAR demo) , but never expected to have heat issues with a TBS game.

I would load the diagnostic tool, but have heard that some can't un-install it.
Reply #25 Top

Mine generally only crashes when I save the game. About every 4 saves or so, it crashes. Since it takes a half hour to load up an old saved game, that gets pretty annoying; but I hope this new patch will fix that. If you let me know where the error log is, I will e-mail that to you if you want.

If you get a crash when the game saves, PLEASE PLEASE send us the debug.err along with using Smart Exception to send us the info it has (Smart Exception can be found in the "Free stuff" area in Stardock Central).