Iraq, Changing my mind

Civil War? Why all of a suddendo you change your mind? It's not like we didn't expect it to happen anyways. Many people have said here that a civil war is very likely. I get your point but let's not be too hasty. WE shouldn't just cut and run, we should at least say good-bye.

"Perhaps it would confuse them if we ran away more!" ~ Monty Python & the Holy Grail.

That's one way to look at it. Another way would be that this is the terrorists in Iraq sticking their neck out just far enough to hang themselves. People are tired of violence there. I don't think we give them enough credit for their intelligence, frankly.

Sure, people like Sadr are trying to take advantage of this, but we don't know that people will allow him to. I think the last thing we need to do is abandon our commitment when things look darkest. That would just betray those who aren't violent and prove people like Sadr right in what they say about us.

1 by DJBandit Friday, February 24, 2006

Civil War? Why all of a suddendo you change your mind? It's not like we didn't expect it to happen anyways. Many people have said here that a civil war is very likely. I get your point but let's not be too hasty. WE shouldn't just cut and run, we should at least say good-bye.

it's not "all of a sudden" this decision comes after years of thinking and watching
The Muslims are nuts killing each other, we ned to let them work out their own problems.

#2 by ParaTed2k Friday, February 24, 2006

"Perhaps it would confuse them if we ran away more!" ~ Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Man you can make me laugh, this decision came hard to me ted, me being a Neo-con warmonger and all.

" The Muslims are nuts killing each other, we ned to let them work out their own problems.

You can't lay that on the average Muslim, though. If the average Muslim in Iraq were killing people, there would be blood running in the streets. In reality I think the average Muslim just wants to be left alone.

Their apathy is the problem, but honestly we don't have a lot of authority to condemn anyone about that. If you look at the murder rate in the US, you might find that many of us sit in the safe part of town and apathetically do nothing when people are dying. We're satisfied until people wander out of the projects and start killing 'real' people. The people in Iraq are no different.

#3 by BakerStreet Friday, February 24, 2006

That's one way to look at it. Another way would be that this is the terrorists in Iraq sticking their neck out just far enough to hang themselves. People are tired of violence there. I don't think we give them enough credit for their intelligence, frankly.

If the people of Iraq really wanted to rid themselves of the terrorists it would be done and over already, how many more innocent Iraqis must be slaughtered before they do something about it?

6 by BakerStreet Friday, February 24, 2006

The Muslims are nuts killing each other, we ned to let them work out their own problems. You can't lay that on the average Muslim, though. If the average Muslim in Iraq were killing people, there would be blood running in the streets. In reality I think the average Muslim just wants to be left alone

I keep thinking "all for evil to succeed all good men have to do is nothing"

I believe the average person in Iraq wants peace, but to allow all this slaughter to happen sickens me.

We cannot stop the coming civil war and I do think it will happen, one more incident of the Shiites being targeted and BOOM. the crap will hit the fan and our brave men and women will be caught in the middle.

WITHDRAW OUR TROOPS NOW!

Like Vietnam, I've never really understood what we're doing there in the first place fighting a war that we don't intend to really win. If we were intending to really win, we'd fight the thing like a fight's supposed to (and should be) be fought- down and dirty as hell.

Fighting to me has always been an all-or-nothing affair so methinks like you- we need to just cut out if we don't have the stomach to really kick ass. This half-way stuff just don't cut it.

Shovelheat: Insightful to ALL of that (I don't know if it went through...I may owe you one)!

Moderateman: I look at it much the same way you do. I feel like all this hand-holding is silly and dangerous. If the Iraqis want freedom and democracy and peace, then they must rise to the challenge.

Let's either drop all the PC tip-toeing and clean house or get the hell out of there. Why is this our responsibility? Who charged us with selectively freeing oppressed nations? And why the hell are we spending so damned much money making the Iraqis' lives comfy when we have needs at home?

There were 16,137 murders in the US iin 2004. What have you done to prevent any? It might seem logical to think that more can be done, and Iraqis DO report these people quite often, as we see on blogs around here that bother to tell us.

Every single one of us knows that there will be someone killed in the inner city nearest them in the next month or so. What do you propose we do about that, Mod? If you are going to hold the Iraqis to a standard, maybe we should start at home. The next time people are killed in a driveby shooting, what might we ahve done to prevent that?

And before you say it is apples and oranges, remember that much of inner city crime is committed by organized gangs. Many are lucrative organizations that supply their lackies with guns and fund themselves with the drug trade. What do you propose we do about that, as citizens sitting at home?

If we can't stop people like that in America, I think it is a tad unfair to believe that someone sitting in Iraq can do the same. I think many times people do sit silently and don't report what they know out of fear, but it isn't easy finding witnesses in the US very often either, is it?

#9 by Shovelheat Friday, February 24, 2006

Like Vietnam

That war was fought way stupid, this one sems to be following the same track.

#10 by Texas Wahine Friday, February 24, 2006

Why is this our responsibility? Who charged us with selectively freeing oppressed nations? And why the hell are we spending so damned much money making the Iraqis' lives comfy when we have needs at home?

The needs at home especially our infrastructure needs gaazillions of bucks to restore it.

#11 by BakerStreet Friday, February 24, 2006

And before you say it is apples and oranges,

how about bananas and hotdogs?>

I agree with your thoughts baker, but this killing of our troops seem to be as useless as the murders here at home, at least with the troops we can avoid useless loss.

We're satisfied until people wander out of the projects and start killing 'real' people.

As a corollary, does the presence of our soldiers, as a partial buffer, potentially disincentivize some Iraqi citizens from acting to correct these problems.

Of course, maybe a police force is necessary to maintain stability while the kinks get worked out. It just seems that the trouble is more than kinks, but an unwillingness on the visible parties to negotiate to any extent.

MM

Man you can make me laugh, this decision came hard to me ted, me being a Neo-con warmonger and all.

I'm glad I could make you laugh, I know this couldn't have been an easy decision (nor an easy article to write).

I'll just add this though. All over the world people see images of Americans killing each other here in the states. They see our murder rates, our gang activity and all the other violence.

Many come off thinking that that is how all Americans truly are. They think that all of us live in constant fear of being murdered every day.

We know that isn't true because we know that most of us will never see the violence that goes on in some parts of our country.

That is how I see what is going on in Iraq. The elections and other situations showed us that Iraqis DO want to be free. Most ARE able to live peacefully with the "others" without killing them.

Hoever, since we get nothing but a constant diet of the violence and bombings over there, it is easy for us to fall for the same misconceptions people in other countries have about us.

Reactionary politics seems to be the only thing motivating anyone today. Everything is the end of the world. We can't continue making huge policy changes based on single incidents anymore. Not if we want to help Iraq to be free... Not if we want to continue to be free...

"As a corollary, does the presence of our soldiers, as a partial buffer, potentially disincentivize some Iraqi citizens from acting to correct these problems."

If there were anything they could really do, but I don't think there is much. The average Iraqi has as much chance defeating terrorists there as the average Columbian has of doing something about the drug cartels.

I agree with some here that we are too hands off. I think these strongholds of insurgency have to be broken without care of international disdain. I think we need to stop coddling people like Sadr and let him know that he either does all he can to stop violence or he'll have to start watching for drones like the rest of the loons.

Rewarding him by giving people like him Iraq on a silver platter though? Not hardly. Our mistake isn't leaving, it's not returning the violence onto the people who openly promote it.

15 by Demosthenes Locke Friday, February 24, 2006

but an unwillingness on the visible parties to negotiate to any extent

exactly, the Sunnis left the barginning table as soon as the Shiites retaliated for the bombing of their second most sacred Mosque, the sunnies should have stayed and denounced the bombing. Instead they used it as an excuse to run away and not negotiate.

17 by BakerStreet Friday, February 24, 2006

"As a corollary, does the presence of our soldiers, as a partial buffer, potentially disincentivize some Iraqi citizens from acting to correct these problems." If there were anything they could really do, but I don't think there is much

they citizens could be just "giving up the terrorist" and let the authorities handle it. Like most neighborhoods they know who belongs and who does not.

If there were anything they could really do, but I don't think there is much. The average Iraqi has as much chance defeating terrorists there as the average Columbian has of doing something about the drug cartels.

This argument, however, is pitting individuals against a group. I agree that an individual will not be able to trump the power held by a group. But what's to prevent those individuals from forming their own counter group for the purpose of opposing that which is harming them?

I pose this more as devil's advocate than anything.

The only way to handle an insurgency is with brutal, overwhelming force. It should be dealt with as a display of our capacity and capability. Hands off should be reserved for times of peace, and in times of peace, we should do our best to not impede in the day to day affairs of other countries.

How do you propose to do this, though? Maybe by just starting to kill off any leaders who are impeding progress? Strategic strikes have been used by Israel for years, but they never seemed to curb terrorist attacks for long.

I don't think people have enough of a commitment to this war to accept any form of a draft. Were this an ideological war, perhaps that would change. Although it may now involve foreign combatants, this was still a war between two countries(okay a coalition and a country) with different ideological bases.

At times, it seems as though we are painting ourselves into a corner, since the cause is not so elegant and the specter not so great as to raise people's ire, as in say WWII.

#20 by Demosthenes Locke Friday, February 24, 2006

This argument, however, is pitting individuals against a group. I agree that an individual will not be able to trump the power held by a group. But what's to prevent those individuals from forming their own counter group for the purpose of opposing that which is harming them?

with all the weapons in Iraq the people could rise up and rid the country of terrorist if they wanted to. As of now the average citizen has the luxury of not having to fight due to others fighting for them.

I believe this great country {America} would not be as great if we let the french do all the fighting of the British in the revolutionary war, as the first American sat on the sidelines and watched.

We are great because of average men that were willing to spill their own blood for FREEDOM.

"with all the weapons in Iraq the people could rise up and rid the country of terrorist if they wanted to. As of now the average citizen has the luxury of not having to fight due to others fighting for them."

Hmmm, so Iraqi civilians can stop insurgents armed with bombs, RPGs, and automatic weapons, when the US with billions of dollars, advanced military and law enforcement can't stop gangs armed with saturday night specials and cheap semi-autos? The NRA has 4 million memebers or so in the US. There are many, many more people with guns here. Why don't we rise up and stop people from making our inner cities war zones?

I think you are being a bit judgemental, and, frankly, a bit hypocritical. If you think about it, you're asking a lot of people with a lot less resources and who have lived in a regime for 30 years that trained them to fear and stay silent. We have a lot of well-armed folks in Iraq. You really think that Iraqi civilians can do something they can't?

Or is it you think we are bound by particular rules and you want the Iraqi people to abandon them and kill people they think are a threat wholesale? I differ with some of our rules, don't get me wrong. If you think it is a bloodbath now, though, you just tell Iraqis to head out into the streets with guns and kill whoever their bias leads them to believe is a threat.

22 by BakerStreet Friday, February 24, 2006

Hmmm, so Iraqi civilians can stop insurgents armed with bombs, RPGs, and automatic weapons,

are not the Insurgents just armed civilians? not the terrorists, the insurgents.

Seems to me the Iraqis are not involved enough in fighting for their own freedom.

It is headed for civil war baker, no matter how you cut it, for too long the people of Iraq were subjugated and to many feuds that will boil over. We over threw Saddam, let them work it out.

I would appreciate it if you did not call me a a hypoctite, just because we disagree on some things.
A free man and clear thinker can change their mind about things, and that is all I did, change my mind.

it's not "all of a sudden" this decision comes after years of thinking and watching
The Muslims are nuts killing each other, we ned to let them work out their own problems. - Moderateman

May I say, "Wow".

It takes nuts, to openly change your mind and proclaim your stance particularly after your support for the Iraq war.

Good job. Yes, I like the change of position you've made, but that's not the reason I say good job, it's because of this:

A free man and clear thinker can change their mind about things, and that is all I did, change my mind. - Moderateman

I don't know if Iraq is already on the road to civil war, but I would say I've thought the risk a highly plausible one. Yes, I agree Iraqis will have to fight for freedom and establish their own government by their own volition.

Hypocrite: One who says one thing and acts in a contradictorily.

You're words aren't out of line with your step.

A corollary of Baker's point is that this stuff is much more in our faces than what goes on here in our own country. The gang violence & daily mayhem that occurs here is accepted as ordinary & is rarely newsworthy on a national level. Everything bad that happens every day in Iraq is "news" here because the media have an agenda - convincing people like Mod that the war is & has been not worth it. The media formed the conclusion that the war was unjustified long ago & have been doing everything they can to make their case ever since, spectacularizing everything that supports their preformed opinions and ignoring most everything else. I'm sad that Mod has fallen victim to them, though I certainly respect his right to change his mind after consideration.