Liberals Are Not Pro-Abortion

That's the most frustrating thing about the abortion issue for me personally. People I've come across who are "pro-life" can't seem to recognize the diffrence between "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice".

Frustrating and irritating indeed!

That's one way of looking at it. Another way would be that one side wants abortion to be an option, the other doesn't. From that perspective, one wants the practice to exist, the other doesn't, therefore one is anti-abortion, the other isn't.

I understand where you are coming from completely. Someone who wants doctor-assisted suicide might take issue with being called 'pro-suicide'. Someone who is in favor of drug legalization might not like being called 'pro-drug use'. In the end, though, if you want something to be available, you are promoting the ability to do it.

If infants were languishing in orphanages, it might make more sense. In reality, people wait years to adopt an infant in the US. People who are "pro-life" simply want the unborn children in question to have the chance to live. People who think abortion should be legal want mothers to be able to snuff out the lives of unborn children, no questions asked.

Call that what you want, but it will always be pro-abortion to me.

Me too. As far as I'm concerned pro-choice "is" pro-abortion! See there's one fly in your ointment. "If" it's "truly" pro-choice, where does the babies "choice" come in?

Contrary to the conservative perception, liberals do not encourage abortion,

That is only partially true. Anyone that tries to argue that planned Parenthood is not encouraging abortion has a very difficult task ahead of them as the facts scream louder than any rhetoric.

Well I'm not liberal but I'm pro-abortion.

"Anyone that tries to argue that planned Parenthood is not encouraging abortion has a very difficult task ahead of them as the facts scream louder than any rhetoric."

What rhetoric? From your righty lying spinning websites? Give me a break. Besides, have you ever gone to Planned Parenthood yourself? Have you ever personally looked at their family planning program? I doubt it. You're just a lying sack of shill for the rightwing demagogery lying neocons.

What rhetoric? From your righty lying spinning websites? Give me a break. Besides, have you ever gone to Planned Parenthood yourself? Have you ever personally looked at their family planning program? I doubt it. You're just a lying sack of shill for the rightwing demagogery lying neocons.

You would do yourself well to learn how to discuss and debate instead of name calling.  You just proved my point. Even tho you will probably never understand or comprehend how.  That is your loss.  On both counts.

Call that what you want, but it will always be pro-abortion to me.

It's easy to resort to linquistics and faulty reasoning

if you want something to be available, you are promoting the ability to do it.

A woman has every right not to go through the anxiety of manufacturing babies for someone else who probably is oriented to eugenics.

If infants were languishing in orphanages, it might make more sense.

but they are! Precisely because prospective adoptive parents are choosy--they want pedigrees.

'pro-drug use'.

It's available one way or the other. Personally, I'd prefer one of my kids to go to a drug store for a fix than manipulate a deal with sleaze balls. Prohibition got us nowhere.

"If" it's "truly" pro-choice, where does the babies "choice" come i

The mother is sparing the fetus from having to make choices in a crazy world.

That is only partially true. Anyone that tries to argue that planned Parenthood is not encouraging abortion has a very difficult task ahead of them as the facts scream louder than any rhetoric.

As a Catholic you should know that there is conscious planning owing to the rhythm method and inadmissable contraceptives.

You would do yourself well to learn how to discuss and debate instead of name calling.

I agree the name calling is taboo; but the same goes for institutions such as Planned Parenthood.

Well I'm not liberal but I'm pro-abortion.

Yes, I did not intend to make it sound that there were none on the other side. But I think you will agree, as you have stated many times, that it is up to the woman to choose and yet is not one who thinks of herself as being the epitome of "pro-abortion" as though it were some sinister, generic movement .

Rather, it is up to the woman, and perhaps the man implicated, who must under trying circumstance make the weighty decision to abort.

Given some of the rhetoric, i.e.; fetuses are simply masses of cells, the life of one citizen is worth the equal amount of another's desires, etc., I believe there are few 'liberals' that feel there is anything 'weighty' about the choice to abort as their conscience is already cleared by the majority of the rationalizations given to support the idea of a moral choice in the matter. Under the guidance of the Supreme Court's precedence in Roe v. Wade, it is never the man's choice, it's unfortunate you'd even entertain that thought in stating that it would "perhaps [be up to] the man implicated". Not to seem unreasonable; I agree with your choice of words, but in looking at the argument of it being a 'woman's right to control her body' let's understand that the man's view is not ever a matter of relevance nor does he retain the same right a woman does when making the choice to abort or not abort.



Contrary to the conservative perception, liberals do not encourage abortion

There is an interesting stigma attributed to 'liberals' - that, they, themselves, believe abortion is a necessary tool to relieving poor single mothers of an unfortunate, unavoidable circumstance. Somehow, it is thought, confirming a right to an abortion is also a vote for it's use!

In allowing citizens' access to the cookie jar, but at the same time saying that one is not for citizens accessing the cookie jar is dubious character-damning rhetoric allowing uncritical minds abortion proponents uneeded slack.

Liberals do not publicly frown on those who for whatever reason make the momentous choice.

Maybe not, but I don't think that is reflected in today's society. In line with 'liberal' think (I'm using the term loosely - obviously not all who proclaim themselves liberal actually assign themselves to the highly subjective conservative opinion of what is a liberal) is the aggressively progressive woman's movement who possibly attribute more value to the 'modern' woman who rises through a career outside of domestic burdens as opposed to one who lifts them up.

pro-abortion" and "pro-choice

It's simply a way of framing the issue to stifle actual debate about the issue. Republicans may say they are 'pro-tax cuts' leaving the mind to infer that anyone debating against them must be 'anti-tax cuts' allowing them to affectively sweep any fact, question, or intelligent debate aside.

What rhetoric? From your righty lying spinning websites? Give me a break

Actually, I have documented pretty thoroughly the eugenist philosophy of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, and to do it again here would be redundant (if this were my own computer, and the text saved to my own hard drive, I might indulge you, but as it stands, I don't want to spend more of my limited time reinforcing a point I've made and re-made ad nauseum).

That being said, not all leftists would describe themselves as supporters of planned parenthood (although most, in my personal anecdotal experience have been pretty ardent supporters). Therefore, in fairness we must differentiate between the goals of PP (which is not composed entirely of leftists) and the left (which is not composed entirely of PP supporters).

That is only partially true. Anyone that tries to argue that planned Parenthood is not encouraging abortion has a very difficult task ahead of them as the facts scream louder than any rhetoric. As a Catholic you should know that there is conscious planning owing to the rhythm method and inadmissable contraceptives.

But that does not address the point.  And we can continue this over to a religion article, but I dont think that is what you intend.

agree the name calling is taboo; but the same goes for institutions such as Planned Parenthood.

I mentioned them.  I did not condemn them.  I merely said look into their rhetoric to find where they condemn themselves.

"Actually, I have documented pretty thoroughly the eugenist philosophy of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, ...."

that's the best you can come up with? A bio of a woman who died forty years ago? She was very much a product of her times. Planned Parenthood, an organization with which I have had intimate dealings (not abortion, just to not confuse the discussion), about 25 years ago, and were it not for them, I don't know where I would have turned for help. Sufffice it to say that bringing up Sanger's bio is evident of your complete ignorance of Planned Parenthood. Equating pro-choice as pro-abortion is specious bullshit, meant only to frame the pro-choice argument in a falsely negative light.

What a bunch of clueless....................... never mind. This is, after all, joeuser.

" A woman has every right not to go through the anxiety of manufacturing babies for someone else who probably is oriented to eugenics. "

Of course. She can opt not to become pregnant. When you say that, it sounds identical to me to someone saying "A woman has every right not to go through the worry of childrearing, so she should be allowed to drown her baby at will." You offer nothing for the child, and you offer nothing for the father. The modern woman as arbiter of death.

Odd that you would bring up Eugenics when it is the pro-abortion side of the equation that can trace its history directly back to it. In the beginning planned parenthood was devised to make it easier for the poor and unwanted NOT to procreate, because it was better they be weeded out of society.

There is an interesting stigma attributed to 'liberals' - that, they, themselves, believe abortion is a necessary tool to relieving poor single mothers of an unfortunate, unavoidable circumstance. Somehow, it is thought, confirming a right to an abortion is also a vote for it's use!

There *is* a stigma, rightly applied. It's called the litmus test of "Roe v. Wade", which liberals like Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein draw out every time there is any candidate for any high office. Which these women, and presumably their constituents (because there's no way this pro-RvW campaign would be started or perpetuated by them ), use to conveniently withdraw their support and/or actively campaign against people who might possibly be a threat to the court's 1974 decision.

We saw it with Alito, we saw it with Roberts, we see it again and again. Every time someone comes up for political office they are given the RvW test by Dems/libs and if they fail, they are the enemy.

So if there is an "interesting stigma attributed to liberals" regarding abortion, then it is of their own making.

It's also cute that when you talk to women about abortion, they have a vastly more sedate attitude about it. Even the women I know who are pro-abortion aren't people I could ever see getting one unless it was something dire. Here, though, we have guys who seem to be all for them to do it on a whim. They wouldn't want to be a baby manufacturer...

I wonder why? I wonder why men so readily lean toward "a woman's right to choose?" Abortion is a murder of convenience, and frankly a large part of that convenience is on the male side of the equation. No child support, no sham marriage. Thank ya ma'am and back to fun the next day. When I watch MTV and see these supposedly idealistic young men expounding on a woman's right to choose between screams of "Show us your tits!" at spring break, well, let's just say I find it vageuly facetious.

On the other hand, some would-be fathers would accept the responsiblity, and are ready to make a commitment. They have no say at all, and have to live with the image of their unborn children being flushed out and becoming jsut so much bio-refuse. We want a responsibility free society, and frankly we'll end up with it. We'll also end up with the kind of citizens that would thrive in such a wasteland.

What a bunch of clueless....................... never mind. This is, after all, joeuser.

No actually that is an indication of you.  Clueless and stupid.  By your own words and deeds.  You can read his articles,  yet you chose not to.  SO stay stupid.  You offer no facts, just a useless opinion.

that's the best you can come up with? A bio of a woman who died forty years ago? She was very much a product of her times.

Margaret Sanger's philosophy FORMED Planned Parenthood. If the Hitler Youth reinvented itself as a service organization, would you want your children involved, knowing the foundation on which it was built? The fact is, Sanger's ideas STARTED PP, and they were used to PROMOTE PP. Small coincidence, isn't it, that 40% of all abortions in America are performed on black women, despite the fact that they make up only 7% of the population?

You cannot separate an organization from the ideals of its founder.

Small coincidence, isn't it, that 40% of all abortions in America are performed on black women, despite the fact that they make up only 7% of the population?

Only 7% of the female population in the US is black?

A woman has every right not to go through the anxiety of manufacturing babies for someone else who probably is oriented to eugenics.

---stevend

What the hell does that mean? Manufacturing babies?
See, for me, that's where we part company....righties don't look at it as "manufacturing". We see it as a little more personal than that.
But the lefties, with their secularized, science-adoring ways, ultimately remove from the equation the very humanism they claim to embrace with such passion.

but they are! Precisely because prospective adoptive parents are choosy--they want pedigrees.

--stevend

Show me.

The mother is sparing the fetus from having to make choices in a crazy world.

---stevend



I'm sorry, but this just made me laugh. If I shot you smack in the head right now, would you thank me before you died for sparing you from having to make any more choices in our crazy world?

Only 7% of the female population in the US is black?

--davad70

Well, only about 15% overall is black, so that's probably just about right.

that's the best you can come up with? A bio of a woman who died forty years ago? She was very much a product of her times.

---dog under a dusty porch

Margaret Sanger FOUNDED PP; what does it matter when she died? He ideals are what it is based upon. She got harrassed and even arrested several times, for disseminating information about birth control (at the time condoms and the Rhythm Method). Nowadays we get harrassed for disseminating information against abortion. Times, I must say, have certainly changed.

Conincidentally, considering this discussion, I saw a young girl at the mall the other night, probably 15 or 16. She was wearing a t-shirt that said "Choose Life---Abortion is Murder".
Now, I'd seen other similar shirts over the years, and this got me to thinking. I honestly don't think I've EVER seen a pro-abortion shirt on anyone anywhere, except maybe in the paper or on TV, in pics from a rally or demonstration or something.

To me, that says something about the pro-choice people.

Only 7% of the female population in the US is black? --davad70 Well, only about 15% overall is black, so that's probably just about right.

Not overall US population, female population...is only 7% black? That seems really low to me. I'm off to research.

Conincidentally, considering this discussion, I saw a young girl at the mall the other night, probably 15 or 16. She was wearing a t-shirt that said "Choose Life---Abortion is Murder". Now, I'd seen other similar shirts over the years, and this got me to thinking. I honestly don't think I've EVER seen a pro-abortion shirt on anyone anywhere, except maybe in the paper or on TV, in pics from a rally or demonstration or something. To me, that says something about the pro-choice people.

For one thing, abortion is legal...the law of the land if you will. So what would be the point of wearing a t-shirt that says "Abortion Is Not Murder". The majority of people in this country believe that, and it's legal. People don't usually wear shirts that affirm their belief in something that is common sense or "the norm". If they're going to wear a shirt that has any political theme to it, it's more often than not, going to be anti-establishment. I spend 5-6 days a week at malls all over the midwest. I run stores that sell lots of t-shirts. We have several anti-bush/cheney shirts...I think around 5 or 6 maybe, and they all sell fairly well, especially "Meet The Fuckers", which features a picture of Bush & Cheney. We don't sell any shirts that are in support of Bush. Not because of any ideology, but because they don't sell. Why don't they sell? Because people buy shirts that are shocking, rebellious, and anti-establishment. Abortion IS the establishment, that's why I don't think you see that on shirts.

By they way, in all my days and nights in malls all around the country, I've never seen anyone wearing a pro-choice OR pro-life t-shirt.