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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

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Reply #451 Top
Frogboy: for what it's worth, IMHO your decision is the right one. I've played MP games over the years (hell, I was trying to design one 25 years ago -- see http://brucefwebster.com/notebooks.htm; the navigation links are at the top and/or in the left column), and I spent quite a few hours on LOTR Online this past summer. But for turn-based strategy, my preference is single-player, and I'd rather have you continue to focus on improving CG2 for that. I think that many of the MP enthusiasts just really have no idea what a box of worms MP opens up. ..fritz..
Reply #452 Top
Kay, strangely it's now bumped up from 2006, but i found the subject worth the following...

Interesting arguments about the whole controversy between Multi-Single gameplay.
If i may add something.

I've played hours in the 1000's with multiple genres; RTS, TBS, Arcade-like, Scrollers, Shoot-outs, etc - all intelligently designed for maximum pleasure - but i doubt the quality time i've enjoyed lately with GC2-DL is anywhere below stuff like AOE or even Civs (btw, an open-source game called "cEvo" (for which i've been contributing lots of modding, too) is as much fun as the grand-daddy of TBS itself!).

It all boils down to one simple principle, for me at least;

-- Simulation of a reality.

GalCiv immerses me inside its Galaxy (...iesssssss) and never lets go! It perfectly simulates conquest (or anything else i pleased) in a carefully planned Sci-Fi environment.

And, what if, Joe-Schmo from god-knows-where-in-the-www... can't play online against only me. The fact is, HE plays what he likes - and so do I.

Bring on the Yor.
I'll find a way to design a fleet of personal taste ships so weird and wacky, the Multi-Player option is sooooo far down my list of concerns that it screams simple FUN.

So long... everyone.
Zyxpsilon.
Reply #453 Top
I understand the concept behind this, and I know that single-player content gets sacrificed for MP. I enjoy having a good, interesting SP campaign in a game. However, I must admit I am a bit disappointed. I enjoy playing TBS games in a limited MP capacity. I often play LAN games with my wife (us vs the AI) like Civ 4, and my father and I (several states apart) both enjoy being able to spend an afternoon playing a game 'online' together (like Civ 4 direct IP connection), talking and playing the game. It adds a nice dimension to a game to be able to play with friends and family. It is a shame that my father and I cannot share a game of GalCiv II, and I hope a MP expansion for this does get produced.
Reply #454 Top
there is a way to sort of play multi player do what they do for multi-verse and compare points. using the same rules for both games.
Reply #455 Top
As there definitely won´t be a support by Stardock for MP, Hotseat or otherwise, aren´t there any modders out there who are going to try something in that vein?

I find it strange that GalCiv2 doesn´t seem to have a real modding community, seeing how popular it is. Of course there aren´t many things that *need* to be modded, but some sort of multiplayer seems to be the obvious choice.

And, no, I don´t have the first idea on how to do that... I rely on friendly modders like most anybody else. ^^
Reply #456 Top
I think the Master of Magic comparison is very apt. That game was immensely unbalanced in so many ways, the races, units, spells, everything. Human (High Men) Paladins who were completely immune to magic were the most overpowered normal units in the game, as well as some spells like Time Stop, Cruel Unminding (permanently lower enemy wizard casting skill), Armageddon/Raise Volcano (vs a non-nature wizard who can't use Change Terrain to make the volcanos/mountains back to other terrain), etc etc etc. If it was multiplayer a ton of the stuff that makes MoM so much fun would have to be cut out or scaled back a lot.

And the same goes for Galactic Civilizations 2. You can't get Galciv 2, the single player experience, with multiplayer. So much would have to be changed in the name of balance and more flowing gamplay that it effectively wouldn't be the same game, it's too much designed as a single player game for that.

I'm an avid World of Warcraft player, dunno if there are that many of those around here :P But in that game, the vast majority of class changes (often nerfs) happen because of PvP balance, the player versus player experience, and many times it directly impacts the player versus environment (or computer) play negatively. I firmly believe that if it had no PvP, the different classes could be designed to be a lot more varied and interesting than they are now. Of course, it might not have made the game on the whole as popular as it is now, but the player versus computer design could be significantly more interesting if it didn't have to take the player versus other player aspect in mind.

Not exactly the same thing, but the core principle is the same. As soon as you make a player able to face off against another player, there's a whole lot of other things that have to be taken into consideration, and it will dramatically alter the way a game plays. I really don't think a game designed to work roughly the same in both single and multiplayer can ever be as good at the single player experience as the same game when it is wholly designed to be as good a singleplayer experience as it can be. You just can't get everything.
Reply #457 Top
I still say "Add Hotseat, ignore the rest", but as CariElf has said multiple times, even that would amount to much more than simply adding a "Add a new player" button to the game. Still my greatest wish. I tried to bring about four friends to play the game, but they all said that they wouldn´t consider it until Hotseat is added.

Of course that could be just my particular circle of friends, because we have a history of huddling together in front of MOO2, but I still think there would be a good lot of people who´d like to see that. Polling on this site indicates otherwise, but I think that of course here the opinions will be skewed towards single player and ( judging by the some of those *very* angry posters ) highly against multiplayer.

I´ve bought both expansions for GalCiv2 and I deeply appreciate the single player experience, but I still would like to share the experience with my friends. About every one of them expressed that they wouldn´t mind simply having a hotseat function added without rebalancing. After all, MOO2 also had some "impossible to archive" victories in hotseat and that didn´t diminish our enjoyment of those long gaming sessions.

I know it will fall on deaf ears, as the devs are finished with GalCiv after the next expansion, but a last time I´ll plead to please add hotseat. :)
Reply #458 Top
I agree with the arguements for no multiplayer. The "fluff" of the game is exactly what makes GC2 playable over and over as single player. For me personally, I prefer the sandbox mode to a campaign or multiplayer. I have played the campaign, but have not finished it (its on my to-do list). I prefer setting the galaxy size to the biggest, cranking all the planet/star/habitation settings to most abundant and playing an epic and open ended game, where over the course of the game I will probably pay other empires to attack an empire I appear to be "friendly" with, design and mass produce at least 3 types of super-ships with tons of weapons, speed, and planetary invasion ability, and take over at least one empire by influence, one by military, and one by diplomacy. I would do at least a few of these things and many more things in my typical game of GC2, and most of these would be much more difficult, if not impossible, to do with all the time constraints and attitudes of players in multiplayer games. I am certain that GC2 would not work if it where in multiplayer where every person takes turns, but what would make more sense if one were to come out is a turn system like the diplomacy boardgame (which I admit I have never actually played) where everybody plans their movements, and they are executed at the same time. I love GC2 the way it is, and I dont even have the expansions yet (im waiting until the expansion bundle is purchaseable with tokens, or the price of Dark Avatar drops to 2 tokens), and I can confidently say that if multiplayer where to come out, I would give it a try of course, but likely not play it.

One thing about GC2 that really makes no multiplayer necessary is the incredibly good AI, while it may not be bright if you keep it at the normal setting, it is still created in such a way that I feel sometimes as if I am playing against other people.

About strategy and multiplayer, I have to say that there is only one strategy game (though real time) that I have played online exclusively - Starcraft. Starcraft's singleplayer was quite boring, except perhaps with a good player made map. But I loved (and still go back and play, even though its ten years old) playing starcraft online. The openendedness of that game was created online, or rather by online players who created maps ranging from original constructions, like cat and mouse to maps based on stories or ideas like star wars or stargate, and even movies like dawn of the dead (heck there is even a civilizations map). While this is kind of unrelated, I think it shows an opposite to GC2's situation, so singleplayer is to GC2 as multiplayer is to starcraft. Single player is what creates GC2's open endedness, where you can say - "oh I have won by technology too many times I think I will try and win by cultural domination" or "I have been too evil a civilization for too long, hmmm, I think I will stay evil [goodbye torians]." So basically I am trying to say GC2 was as frogboy stated, built for singleplayer, and it would require an entirely new game (GC3?) to create a good multiplayer feature.


 :p 
Reply #459 Top
Multiplayer is the future and in times of the Internet and common use of LAN no game should lack the multiplayer-part in my point of view. The problem is to implement multiplayer in a good and playable way without the nasty little things like crappy connection failures, balance bugs or weird saving procedures. Besides, I'm sure that it's better to implement a multiplayer part in a game in the long run as most fun with regard to strategy games is the competition between you and your friends. Moreover I so much agree with regard to playing hot-seat or over LAN...this way multiplayer rocks! Playing longterm over the internet is a bit more difficult, I admit, but still possible and definitely worth the effort...
Reply #460 Top
Overall, you've convinced me. For the *base* game. Lots of things are really cool in a single player game, but only for a time. What happens when I've been playing GalCiv2 for months and I'm bored of making new ships? What happens when I decide to finally turn off battles because I've seen it all? What happens when I no longer read the text and indulge myself in the single-player experience?


Expansions are the other alternative to adding multiplayer in order to increase the lifespan of any given game, which is what stardock did/is doing.
Reply #461 Top
For reference, I just found this post by kryo from Stardock:


February 12, 2008 23:04:56
GC2 won't be getting multiplayer. Aside from patches, TA is pretty much the end of the road for it. GC3 will most very likely be based on the fantasy game's engine, though.


This sounds good (as the unnamed fantasy game is mentioned as being turn-based and supporting multiplayer).
Reply #462 Top
In my case i never played the campaign. I only play the skirmish custom galaxy modes.
Master of Orion 2 is my favorite game since it came out and i hoped that GalCiv 2 would change that but because of the lack in multiplayer skirmish modes it never will or get close to that. I play Moo2 multiplayer, i play Civ4 multiplayer and i play every other strategy game i bought just in multiplayer or skirmish mode. I had fun with the game and its great but with no multiplayer i will never install it again an play Moo2 instead.
An addon that would include multiplayer would be worth paying any amount of money for me.
Reply #463 Top
Actually I agree with the decision/reasoning for no multiplayer--however it seems like one of the most compelling reasons for multi-player would be the ability to "show off" ship designs to other players over the course of the game...perhaps a "Virtual Shipyard" would be a good idea?

Players could visit other players Shipyards and see the designs in their full in-game glory...spin them around zoom in and get a better view than mere screen-shots allow for and if the "owner" was willing download the .shipcfg and .xml files right there.

If we really wanted to get crazy how about being able to build ships either offline or in the Virtual Shipyard as well? I think it would be kind of neat to be able to take a look at someone's completed vessels then head over to the Drydock and see what was currently under construction and if the shipwright happened to be around be able to watch him/her work and pick up a maybe a few ideas tricks or some inspiration.

Consider it kind of an online art gallery.
Reply #464 Top
@Frogboy

as someone who claims to play a lot of multiplayer I don't think you made any valid points on why a game should NOT be MP. The truth is that the challenge in a multiplayer strategy game is simply on another level. Strategic games played in MP are different from the same games played in SP, so I don't see a problem with having any strategy game in MP. They will be different experiences and I am sure players will be fully aware of it. Limiting the game for the sake of MP balance is also a moot point since players who love the genre can limit themselves in order to enjoy more the game. In short, you should let your customers decide if they want to play MP and if they enjoy it. And I really don't think anyone not interested in MP would not buy the game just for 10 bucks more...
Reply #465 Top
As much as I would love to be able to play this game with a friend, having to sacrifice all the little features that make GC2 shine would be too much to ask.

I love playing the Terrans and going nuts with diplomacy, but what the heck would a diplomacy bonus mean when trading with an actual person?

An MP game with AI opponents could be pretty broken. It would be even easier to exploit the AI- a human could team could just specialize and trade with each other; one does all the fighting, one manufactures, the other does all the research. They could take extremely specialized racial picks, and set their production or reasearch sliders to %100 so everyone uses all their potential production. In the hands of good players even a suicidal level AI would be screwed by those kind of shenanigans.


Reply #466 Top
Well, for my part, I purchased GalCiv 1 and will not spend any more money on this series unless multiplayer becomes a part of the game. I spend most of my playing time in multiplayer mode.

I understand the cost/complexity issues with multiplayer. What is crap is the excuse that the single player experience would suffer. "Multiplayer mode may significantly change the game experience" or some such line is now displayed on a number of multiplayer games. Some sacrifices must be made to make a game viable for multiplayer mode. The features that make single player a better experience for the single player do not have to be sacrificed.

If you don't want to spend the cost and dollars to make a multiplayer mode, just come out and say so, but don't rationalize it with all the garbage about sacrificing the single player experience.
Reply #467 Top
Oh I still love this 'discussion'. Go play Sins if you like multiplayer and leave my GC2 alone.

Gamespot still harps on the no multiplayer crap too. Some of us happen to like our games to be single player, k thx.
Reply #468 Top
Oh I still love this 'discussion'. Go play Sins if you like multiplayer and leave my GC2 alone.

Gamespot still harps on the no multiplayer crap too. Some of us happen to like our games to be single player, k thx.


I second this!!! :)
Reply #469 Top
I'm so tired of the number of times I see a review going something like 'this game is amazing, you must buy it....(buried in review: weak or no single player campaign)'. The primary reason I'll buy a game is for the single player, and the multi-player is more of a bonus. There are a few rare exceptions (I bought team fortress 2 for the multiplayer for example), but in particular with strategy games (and turn based ones which are even less suited to online play) I want a good single-player mode. It's why ironically when a reviewer puts in their review 'a good game, but no multiplayer' it makes it appeal to me more - it means the entire review will have been on the single player part of the game.

Interesting to hear how much of a games budget multiplayer can take up as well - given it's that high I'm surprised more games don't focus exclusively on the single player side of things for PC (wrt strategy games).
Reply #470 Top
Civ4 has the best multiplayer of any TBS game, which is, to use a tired old analogy, like winning the gold medal in the special olympics. It sucks less than other TBS multiplayer but it still sucks.

Kudos to Stardock for not wasting time, money, and feature space attempting to do the impossible.
Reply #471 Top
Gamespot still harps on the no multiplayer crap too.


They always will. Its in the nature of the multiplayer to frequent sites such as gamespot, therefore surprise surprise they will take a pro-multiplayer stance, or at the very least appear to take that stance. Its in their circulation/viewing numbers interests, which is fair enough, its the way the world turns round. Players of Single Player games by in large do not frequent these kinds of sites as much as multiplayer, if they did the routine numbers on the GalCiv Site would go through the roof!

All the noise is therefore far more disproportionate to the real numbers, the average single player is not even aware this yelling is going on, much less agree with it, and even less, care about the row in the first place! The overwhelming number of single player gamers do not want multiplayer, its a simple fact, emotion will never change that.

If a multiplayer element was so vital to "success", single player games houses would go out of business. They dont, they are happy in what they do - clearly, or they would have changed long ago, multiplayer is hardly new.

Regards
Zy
Reply #472 Top
Some of us happen to like our games to be single player, k thx.


I agree. You can just get up and stop or quit without ruining the game for people you are playing with. One of pet peeves has always been starting a multi-player game and then one or more humies quit.

For some reason getting beat by a comp ticks me off more then getting bested by a humie.
Reply #473 Top
Graphic links are gone. Please update.
Reply #474 Top
Well, for my part, I purchased GalCiv 1 and will not spend any more money on this series unless multiplayer becomes a part of the game. I spend most of my playing time in multiplayer mode.I understand the cost/complexity issues with multiplayer. What is crap is the excuse that the single player experience would suffer. "Multiplayer mode may significantly change the game experience" or some such line is now displayed on a number of multiplayer games. Some sacrifices must be made to make a game viable for multiplayer mode. The features that make single player a better experience for the single player do not have to be sacrificed.If you don't want to spend the cost and dollars to make a multiplayer mode, just come out and say so, but don't rationalize it with all the garbage about sacrificing the single player experience.


You don't get basic economics, do you? Okay, let's put this in simple words for you.

Brad has, say, ten slaves under his command. Each slave can generate 100 Programming Units a week, for a total of 1000 PUs per week. He knows that he can build a game with no multiplayer with about 50,000 PUs, or just under a year of effort. He also knows from far more experience than you that it'll increase the PU cost by about fifty percent to build the perfect combination of single- and multi-player gaming.

Brad has to pay money for all these PUs. He's not a struggling single mother or anything, but he has to justify the cost. He knows, again from experience, that multiplayer won't increase the sales by fifty percent. So his options are as follows:

* Spend 50% more money and push out other projects another 25 weeks. No revenue is generated during this extra 25 weeks for obvious reasons. But at the end he knows he'll have an amazing game. Its sales won't pay for the extra time, so overall profits are lower, and the game will have to get less free content as it ages, because the budget just won't be there.

* Spend about the same amount of time and money by ditching features or giving less post-game support. Hence Brad's comment that he'd have to sacrifice.

Over the long run, there's a chance the extra spending will be worthwhile just because of all the fan loyalty it generates, but because multiplayer just doesn't increase sales well enough, it's hard to go that route. It costs a whole lot more - directly in employee salaries, and indirectly in postponing sales. It pushes out projects that could bring fresh blood into the Stardock Wagon of Love. Even if it's done well, the single-player fans don't show any appreciation for it because it's not why they bought the game.

The second option is of course a non-option because Brad has too much love for his craft.

-----

Note, though, that as I already posted, it's clear that lacking multi-player doesn't kill a game. TA is the number 7 PC game of all time according to Metacritic. TA beat Civ IV, and TA is an expansion that still lacks multi-player.
Reply #475 Top
Oops, looks like it's number 8 of all time. Whatever, it's up there really high.