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Island Dog
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Where was the "outrage" from the NYT's back then

January 12, 2006 11:01:45 AM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The controversy following revelations that U.S. intelligence agencies have monitored suspected terrorist related communications since 9/11 reflects a severe case of selective amnesia by the New York Times and other media opponents of President Bush. They certainly didn’t show the same outrage when a much more invasive and indiscriminate domestic surveillance program came to light during the Clinton administration in the 1990’s. At that time, the Times called the surveillance "a necessity."

"If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there’s a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country’s largest intelligence agency." (Steve Kroft, CBS’ 60 Minutes)

Those words were aired on February 27, 2000 to describe the National Security Agency and an electronic surveillance program called Echelon whose mission, according to Kroft,

"is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, Echelon’s computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world."


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Island Dog
singrdave
Join Date 07/2004
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Reply #1 January 12, 2006 11:11:31 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Things to make you go hmmm...
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Dr Guy
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #2 January 12, 2006 11:38:32 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
No, it does not make you go Hmmmmm.  It makes you question the NY Times as being a Media source instead of a propaganda one.
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singrdave
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Reply #3 January 12, 2006 11:44:02 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It makes you question the NY Times as being a Media source instead of a propaganda one.

Selective blindness is very telling, it's true.

The LA Times is only slightly more radically left. They just don't have the respect and weight that the New York version carries.
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davad70
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #4 January 12, 2006 11:51:00 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There is a major difference between Echelon and the current NSA wiretapping. Echelon was done in accorance with FISA.
Before any conversation of US persons was targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. George Tenet testified before Congress regarding this on 4/12/2000;

I’m here today to discuss specific issues about and allegations regarding Signals Intelligence activities and the so-called Echelon Program of the National Security Agency…

There is a rigorous regime of checks and balances which we, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency and the FBI scrupulously adhere to whenever conversations of U.S. persons are involved, whether directly or indirectly. We do not collect against U.S. persons unless they are agents of a foreign power as that term is defined in the law. We do not target their conversations for collection in the United States unless a FISA warrant has been obtained from the FISA court by the Justice Department.

Nice try though.
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Island Dog
Deference
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Reply #5 January 12, 2006 12:41:17 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
That is an important point to bring up davad, apparently, however, Echelon still didn't nab the 'terrorists'.

I wonder why?

In a related question, how is it that the United States government, with all it's powerful satellite imagery capable of producing high resolution photos of on-ground elements still cannot target, track, or find Osama Bin Ladin? Just something to ponder on, JU.

Davad, if you wouldn't mind providing your source for the above quote, that would be greatly appreciated.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #6 January 12, 2006 12:52:10 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

There is a major difference between Echelon and the current NSA wiretapping. Echelon was done in accorance with FISA.
Before any conversation of US persons was targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. George Tenet testified before Congress regarding this on 4/12/2000;

No the major difference is you did not read the story, and (again) decided to make your own story.  I draw your wayward attention to this quote:

Even as the Times defended Echelon as “a necessity” in 1999, evidence already existed that electronic surveillance had previously been misused by the Clinton Administration for political purposes.

Which means FISA is irrelevant since it cannot authorize spying for political purposes.  Reliably wrong again.

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davad70
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Reply #7 January 12, 2006 1:27:31 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I did, in fact "read the story". That does not change the fact that I was pointing out a major difference between the current NSA spying and the Echelon program. That difference exists, therefore I'm not "Reliably wrong again".
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singrdave
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Reply #8 January 12, 2006 1:34:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
electronic surveillance had previously been misused by the Clinton Administration for political purposes.

I was pointing out a major difference between the current NSA spying and the Echelon program.

The difference being the political gains under Clinton rule and the counter-terrorism efforts of Bush's instructions to the NSA, which instructions did have the blessing of the Justice Department?
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Dr Guy
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Reply #9 January 12, 2006 1:37:59 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

I did, in fact "read the story". That does not change the fact that I was pointing out a major difference between the current NSA spying and the Echelon program. That difference exists, therefore I'm not "Reliably wrong again".

But you are wrong again. For this has nothing to do with that, just the 'feigned' outrage of the times now versus none before.  Clearly there is a strong case, perhaps stronger than today's kerfluffle, that it was illegal back then, and the times knew it, yet fully supported it.  Yet with no proof that anything illegal has been done this time, the Times is outraged.  Nice double standard, which this is about.

So you are wrong again.  And consistently so.

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davad70
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Reply #10 January 12, 2006 3:43:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So you are wrong again. And consistently so.




I made no claim whether Echelon was legal or not, just that they did go through FISA. Whether they violated any other statutes is a different issue. As I said, I was making a point that there were differences between the two programs, which there obviously are. Are you saying that there is no discernable differences between the programs? If that's your point and you show evidence that the programs were the same, then yes I would freely admit to being wrong. Unlike you, I've shown that I have no trouble admitting I'm wrong when shown evidence shows that to be true.

There is a major difference between Echelon and the current NSA wiretapping. Echelon was done in accorance with FISA.
Before any conversation of US persons was targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. George Tenet testified before Congress regarding this on 4/12/2000;


If you can show me exactly what part of that post is "wrong", I'll be more than happy to admit it.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #11 January 12, 2006 3:54:02 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

I made no claim whether Echelon was legal or not,

Nice try though.

You should learn to hide your mistakes before denying them.

Where was the "outrage" from the NYT's back then

Now where was anyone proclaiming legal or illegality?  You brought up the issue and now you want us to ignore the man behind the curtain.  In essence, as you have tried to do this before, you changed the issue so you could argue a completely different issue, and then proclaim victory, prematurely I might add.

I admit when I am wrong, but when it comes to you, I never have been.

And you still have not provided deference with his link.  Afraid to?

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drmiler
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Reply #12 January 12, 2006 4:49:49 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There is a major difference between Echelon and the current NSA wiretapping. Echelon was done in accorance with FISA.
Before any conversation of US persons was targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. George Tenet testified before Congress regarding this on 4/12/2000;


Can you show proof of this? Because all I get off the internet about it is blog sites and they ain't proof of squat.
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davad70
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #13 January 12, 2006 4:58:03 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
You should learn to hide your mistakes before denying them.


You still haven't shown what this "mistake" is.

Now where was anyone proclaiming legal or illegality?


You actually brought that point up...right here;
Clearly there is a strong case, perhaps stronger than today's kerfluffle, that it was illegal back then, and the times knew it, yet fully supported it.


You brought up the issue and now you want us to ignore the man behind the curtain. In essence, as you have tried to do this before, you changed the issue so you could argue a completely different issue, and then proclaim victory, prematurely I might add.


I didn't change the issue. What issue? Isn't a good portion of that article related to Echelon? Oh, the outrage thing and why they weren't outraged about Echelon. Well, it's possible they weren't outraged because Echelon went through the proper legal channels.

Where exactly did I claim victory, prematurely or otherwise? There's no "victory" to be had here.

And you still have not provided deference with his link. Afraid to?


Afraid?? Why would I be afriad of anything related to a silly message board? I've seen some things in my life that I was afraid of...while I served my country, and outside of that. Maybe we just have different concepts of fear. I didn't notice the request by deference earlier. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Here's the link;

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davad70
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Reply #14 January 12, 2006 4:58:54 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Can you show proof of this? Because all I get off the internet about it is blog sites and they ain't proof of squat.


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Dr Guy
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Reply #15 January 12, 2006 5:07:29 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

You actually brought that point up...right here;
Clearly there is a strong case, perhaps stronger than today's kerfluffle, that it was illegal back then, and the times knew it, yet fully supported it.

No, you did!  I was responding to you, and your lame attempt to take this to a topic you had any hope of winning.  So that dog dont hunt.  Must I always prove you wrong?  Give up!

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Dr Guy
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Reply #16 January 12, 2006 5:09:07 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Where was the "outrage" from the NYT's back then

I didn't change the issue. What issue? Isn't a good portion of that article related to Echelon? .

Do you want to read the top line?  Or are you capable of it?  Now dont play stupid with me.  It wont work.

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Dr Guy
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Reply #17 January 12, 2006 5:10:33 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Oh, the outrage thing and why they weren't outraged about Echelon. Well, it's possible they weren't outraged because Echelon went through the proper legal channels.

Now you are just arguing with yourself and using circular logic.  You say you read the linked article, yet with your continued denial of its contents it is apparent you did not, even when parts are highlighted for you here.

Ok, I give up.  You are not playing stupid.  But you are wrong again.

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davad70
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Reply #18 January 12, 2006 5:19:40 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
No, you did! I was responding to you, and your lame attempt to take this to a topic you had any hope of winning.


That's the part you don't seem to grasp about me at all. I'm not interested in "winning" anything here. I'm just about people being honest and reporting things that are true, as opposed to telling only a portion of the story, or gross distortions of the facts.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #19 January 12, 2006 5:28:21 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

I'm just about people being honest

You are a comedian too.

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davad70
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Reply #20 January 12, 2006 5:31:51 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
And you are a........ ehhhh nevermind.
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drmiler
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Reply #21 January 12, 2006 6:21:16 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Can you show proof of this? Because all I get off the internet about it is blog sites and they ain't proof of squat.


Link


Well if your all about truth and the reporting of it....please refer to your link and "show" me where it says that Echelon went through the FISA court? I read it 2 times and could find no references about that. All it states is that Echelon didn't go around collecting info on US citizens unless they were an agent for a foriegn power. Which we already know for a fact that that's a lie.


The secret is out. Two powerful intelligence gathering tools that the United States created to eavesdrop on Soviet leaders and to track KGB spies are now being used to monitor Americans. One system, known as Echelon, intercepts and analyzes telephone calls, faxes and e-mail sent to and from the United States. The other system, Tempest, can secretly read the displays on personal computers, cash registers and automatic teller machines, from as far as a half mile away. Although the inner workings of both systems remain classified, fueling exaggerated claims about their capabilities on Internet sites, credible detail has at last begun to emerge. It comes chiefly from foreign governments that began investigating American surveillance activities after discovering that the Echelon system had been used to spy on their defense contractors. From those documents it is possible to obtain the first accurate view of the threats high-tech spying poses to our right to privacy. We think you will agree it also creates a real and present threat to our freedom.


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davad70
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Reply #22 January 12, 2006 6:26:17 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Well if your all about truth and the reporting of it....please refer to your link and "show" me where it says that Echelon went through the FISA court? I read it 2 times and could find no references about that.


We do not collect against US persons unless they are agents of a foreign power, as that term is defined in law. We do not target their conversations for collection in the United States unless a FISA [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] warrant has been obtained from the FISA court by the Justice Department. And we do not target their conversations for collection overseas unless Executive Order 12333 has been followed and the Attorney General has personally approved collection.
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ParaTed2k
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Reply #23 January 12, 2006 6:36:24 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
So apparently, to the NYT and our own Davadedalus, it is ok to abuse electronic surveilance assets, as long as it is political opponents who are targeted but not wartime enemies.

Yeah, ok... makes sense to me.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #24 January 12, 2006 6:45:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Yeah, ok... makes sense to me.

You turning into a Liberal?

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davad70
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Reply #25 January 14, 2006 1:19:04 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I read it 2 times and could find no references about that.


Did you find it yet drmiler?
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