Where Does the Fourth Amendment Begin and End?

If you read me regularly, you know I'm a champion of the fourth amendment. Even if you don't read me regularly, you can probably figure as much from my writing.

There are a lot of questions floating around now about whether President Bush (AND several key members of Congress, WITH the complicity of the New York Times,  although the media conveniently deflects this fact) violated the fourth amendment in authorizing illegal wiretaps. Arguably, the fourth AND fifth amendments could come into play here, a fact that also hasn't escaped talking heads. Frankly, in looking at the way the fourth amendment is applied, the fifth amendment argument is the stronger of the two arguments. In this article, I'm not going to spend a lot of time addressing the fifth amendment questions, or the 1978 wiretapping law (yes, the violation is still questionable, at least according to several judicial analysts...it's just not the topic I want to discuss here).

Although one's communications fall under the umbrella of a "right to privacy", such is an IMPLIED right from SCOTUS interpretations of the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments and is not expressly guaranteed in the US Constitution. Your fourth amendment rights have generally been interpretated to mean your home, the articles on your person, and, to a lesser extent, your vehicle. Even in these cases, a "Terry standard" is occasionally applied; that is, was the search "reasonably justified" at its inception. While the definition is open to judicial interpretation, most judges at the appellate levels tend to side with the individual, not the government when defining reasonable justification. If you are pulled over for speeding, for instance, and a run of your driver's license shows several convictions for drug trafficking, you might as well sit tight. It's going to be a LONG night. Similarly, if police approach your house and smell chemicals consistent with the manufacture of methamphetamines, they will probably enter, as there isn't sufficient time to get a warrant beforehand.

But communications are another matter. Even in the best of circumstances, communications have fallen into a judicial "gray area". For at least 30 years, the government has wiretapped phones when there's a suspicion of gambling activity, or of drug trafficking. They have usually used a secret court to obtain a warrant, but some of their arrests have been upheld without a warrant. To put it simply, communication devices are not consistently upheld as one's property as far as the fourth amendment is concerned. And the Bush administration COULD make the argument that the "Terry standard" applies here, as, at least according to the information we have at present, all of the wiretaps involved calls to or from individuals with known al Qaeda links.

I don't like what President Bush did. At all. I question its constitutionality, and its legality as regards the 1978 wiretapping law. I'd like nothing more than to see him impeached, tried and convicted, IF, and ONLY if, he violated the laws of the land. Also if and only if members of Congress and the media who were aware of these actions are tried as co-conspirators. Bush's should NOt be the only head that rolls.

If a special prosecutor is appointed to investigate whether Bush broke the law or not, however, I believe they will need to look beyond the fourth amendment. There's simply not enough there to make a compelling case.

13,470 views 38 replies
Reply #1 Top
I don't like what President Bush did. At all. I question its constitutionality, and its legality as regards the 1978 wiretapping law. I'd like nothing more than to see him impeached, tried and convicted, IF, and ONLY if, he violated the laws of the land. Also if and only if members of Congress and the media who were aware of these actions are tried as co-conspirators. Bush's should NOt be the only head that rolls.


Well I can't say that your opinion about impeaching Bush is because you hate him, sounds more like you just don't like him. But that's cool, everyone has the right to do so. I do agree, if he did break the law he should be prosecuted, him or any other Presidents who choses to do the same. Not because it's him like some people here like to imply simply because they hate him. It's a law and if broken the criminal (would technically be considered criminal once the law is broken) should be punished no matter who.
Reply #2 Top
The Problem Gid, is that while the law may eventually be declared unconstitutional, it has not been yet.  If and when it is so declared, then any one following that law is committing a crime.  However, since it is a law on the books, and retroactive prosecution is against the constitution, there is no way for he, or Clinton, or congress or the Media to be convicted of any crime.  Simply put, no crime has yet been committed.
Reply #3 Top

Well I can't say that your opinion about impeaching Bush is because you hate him, sounds more like you just don't like him.

As a person, I don't like or dislike President Bush. I don't know him well enough to make an educated decision, and I separate the person from his actions. I don't like a LOT of his actions, I DO like a FEW of his actions, and I'm indifferent about several. But I would never claim I hate him, because that would be putting politics above humanity, and I'm not inclined to do that.

Reply #4 Top
The Problem Gid, is that while the law may eventually be declared unconstitutional, it has not been yet. If and when it is so declared, then any one following that law is committing a crime. However, since it is a law on the books, and retroactive prosecution is against the constitution, there is no way for he, or Clinton, or congress or the Media to be convicted of any crime. Simply put, no crime has yet been committed.


I'll leave that to the lawyers to decide...lol. If a crime has been committed, Bush's head SHOULD roll, in my opinion...but again, not without all of the other responsible parties being charged as co-conspirators.
Reply #5 Top
If a special prosecutor is appointed to investigate whether Bush broke the law or not, however, I believe they will need to look beyond the fourth amendment. There's simply not enough there to make a compelling case.

You simply do not have enough information at this point to make a statement like that.
Reply #6 Top

Ben,

Umm, actually I DO. The fourth amendment doesn't apply in THIS particular case. There are fourth amendment violations in certain OTHER actions of our government, but I DO have enough information on THIS particular case to say that the 4th doesn't apply. As I said in the article, the case for FIFTH amendment (self incrimination) violations is the more compelling argument.

Reply #7 Top
Greate Article (as usual), but there are no Constitutional protections for enemies during war.
Reply #8 Top

Greate Article (as usual), but there are no Constitutional protections for enemies during war.

Para,

There are Constitutional provisions for residents of the United States. And, in all fairness, I think I DID make a compelling case that this particular amendment, at least, WASN'T violated. I can't speak with as much authority on the others, but this particular amendment I have down pretty good at this point...lol!

Like I said, let's get it to the hands of an independent prosecutor. Let them decide whether laws were broken

Reply #9 Top
I posted this on a different blog, but it seems to apply here. BTW, I'm a nutjob liberal *snicker*, but I appreciate your thoughtful contemplation of this issue. Here's the post, It's a little long, but worth the read, I think.

The 4th ammendment is very clear about unwarrented search and seizure. There can be no argument about the validity of the 4th ammendment. It is part of the constitution, and on the surface, it looks as if it has been violated.... So we check it out.

We see a layer below the surface that the 9th ammendment expressly forbids congress from passing any law that contradicts the rest of the constitution. Overriding a constitutional ammendment can only be accomplished by another, counteractive ammendment to the constitution. What does the 9th ammendment have to do with the 4th ammendment? Well, in this particular case, Bush's argument that the Congress consented to this when they authorized use of force is superceded by the 9th ammendment, which forbids congress (and, so congress thought, the president) from considering legislation which violated the 4th ammendment. Congress had a reasonable expectation that their autthorization for the war was concurrent with the constitutional absolutes of the 4th and the 9th ammendments.

The second argument I hear is that a wartime president is bestowed with "inherent powers" as definied in article II, but article I, section 8 outlines the role of congress in war, clearly stating that only they make make a formal declaration of war, something they have not done in the "war on terror" as of yet. That said, Article II also gives the president the right to use "all necessary force" when engaged in armed conflict, and grants him command of the armed forces. It does not give him the right to violate the very clear statutes set forward in the Bill of Rights.... again, we refer to the 9th ammendment and have a resonable expectation that the congress will hold the president up to his constitutional responsibilities.

The FISA provides contingency plans for intelligence gathering at the immediate command of the president so long as a SECRET warrant is obtained from a SECRET court - a process which still now remains classified and has not been revealed in its entirety to anyone. He may begin surveilance up to 72 hours prior to obtaining that warrant, and in 19,000 applications for warrants, only 5 have been turned down. To me, it seems as though Bush thought for some reason that the court would not issue the warrant, raising the legitimate concern that he is tapping people he could not prove just cause to tap. That is illegal, and a blatant violation of the 4th ammendment EVEN WITH the loopholes built into the Patriot Act.

From a purely non-partisan, constitutional viewpoint, this is extremely troubling. A strict constructionist's interpretation of the constitution leaves little doubt that this act was, indeed unconstitutional, and in this case, because he also bypassed the provisions in the Patriot Act, a crime as well. And a liberal interpretation.... Well, I'm not suure you boys can handle that.

Anyway, Merry Christmas. Hope I could be of some help.
Reply #10 Top
There are Constitutional provisions for residents of the United States. And, in all fairness, I think I DID make a compelling case that this particular amendment, at least, WASN'T violated. I can't speak with as much authority on the others, but this particular amendment I have down pretty good at this point...lol!Like I said, let's get it to the hands of an independent prosecutor. Let them decide whether laws were broken


Yes, it will probably come down to an independent prosecuter's decisions, but there also needs to be investigations into the leaking of the details of on going operations. Whether Prs. Bush broke the law or not is one question, but whether or not the leaker broke the law is an entirely different question... one that needs answers also.

Congrats on getting featured!
Reply #11 Top
WOW! Gideon - this is one of the best written, concise, and non-biased pieces I've read on here in a LONG time. Thank you for bringing this up in such a fair way. I agree that there should be an investigation. I've written elsewhere that I suspect wrongdoing here, but I'm not a judge, and it isn't my call. My background in the intel field causes me to have grave concerns about this situation though. Thanks again for all the info.

Tea - you're article was pretty well written too, with an interesting twist bringing the 9th into the argument. Hadn't thought of it in that light. Thanks!
Reply #12 Top
don't like what President Bush did. At all. I question its constitutionality, and its legality as regards the 1978 wiretapping law. I'd like nothing more than to see him impeached, tried and convicted, IF, and ONLY if, he violated the laws of the land


My Boy Scout mentality always question folks setting as far away as their living room fluently saying on the one hand I want to be safe and appreciate national security. However, on the other, makes blanket assumptions without regard for leadership constraints. Why is it they seldom speak from knowing the variables thrust at those enforcing out protect and serve statutes? More often then not, they impede the process by saying such things as… Oh by the way, your weapon has been emptied, we pulled your teeth, put you on a short leash and impaired your hands so you can't safely walk the perimeter...now protect me Then after facing our worst fears, the body count is taken. Next every conceivable hour is used to point fingers making remarks similar to "why did you let this happen."

Yes, I agree with the "intent" of... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." But, such rules should not be taken so literally as to impede our leaderships ability to protect our shores and way of life.

This isn't a valid means of position support. However, in this case, it's the closest I have seen to the real world UC terrorist subject matter. If you didn’t, you should watch the season finale of "Sleeper Cell". The Fourth Amendment was broached a few times by an FBI terrorist unit and lives were spared unknowingly which also happens in the real world.
They portrayed life undercover broaching rules in all its real life stifling glory. What was startling yet true to life was viewers watched leaders of HLS in D.C. posturing to insure every law was adhered to which requires significant process time. On the other hand, those in the field and the operative face the call for dynamic operational change to stay with a sequence of events, though the UC is unable to connect with his handler for approval and update. Death is over his shoulder and moving quickly towards unsuspecting civilians... Crossing the boundaries of our valued Amendments sometimes happens in hopes of saving lives.

Of 287 million, some 4700+ scenarios developed enough grounds for security concern that leadership felt some form of investigative action was needed for additional clarification. I grant them flexibility to use reasonable means to take down our enemies even if they selectively infringe on some Amendment rights of those their investigating because their not investigating "JoeUser". Their investigating people that might very well want to harm unsuspecting Americans just because they are Americans.
Reply #13 Top

Yes, I agree with the "intent" of... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." But, such rules should not be taken so literally as to impede our leaderships ability to protect our shores and way of life.

I disagree with you vehemently on this one, titan. As expressed in the article, I find it clear that the fourth amendment wasn't violated. But our legal system is established on the standard of "innocent until proven guilty", and we cannot allow our lives to be torn apart on mere speculation. Do you realize that the America you're calling for could include a neighbor who has a problem with the volume of your stereo, the height of your grass, or your religion, calling and making false accusations that could lead to just that? If you think it can't happen, think again. As I have established and repeatedly documented, it HAS happened, REPEATEDLY, to innocent parents in cases involving Child Protective Services.

We can't allow the constitution to be stepped on simply because we desire the ILLUSION of security.

Reply #14 Top
The FISA provides contingency plans for intelligence gathering at the immediate command of the president so long as a SECRET warrant is obtained from a SECRET court - a process which still now remains classified and has not been revealed in its entirety to anyone. He may begin surveilance up to 72 hours prior to obtaining that warrant, and in 19,000 applications for warrants, only 5 have been turned down. To me, it seems as though Bush thought for some reason that the court would not issue the warrant, raising the legitimate concern that he is tapping people he could not prove just cause to tap. That is illegal, and a blatant violation of the 4th ammendment EVEN WITH the loopholes built into the Patriot Act.


You are wrong! Period. He does NOT need to go before the court to obtain a warrent "prior" to starting a wiretap. He does need to do it if it goes beyond 72 hours. Read this and weep.


Without a court order
The President may authorize, through the Attorney General, the surveillance without a court order for the period of one year provided it is only for foreign intelligence information and there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party[3].
Reply #15 Top
umm, dr...

The problem is, in the alleged conversations, individuals within the United States WERE a party.
Reply #16 Top
So how do we defend our nation when the enemy is within our borders... and especially if they are AmericansLink
? Treat them all as "criminals". I don't think so!!
Reply #17 Top
Para,

Simple. Use the tools we already have at our disposal. Using your logic, we could override the Constitution in virtually EVERY criminal investigation. We can't allow ourselves to do that.

I don't know if the law WAS violated here, but I DO believe it should be investigated. And not by journalists, either, but by an independent investigator who will let the chips fall where they may.
Reply #18 Top
Gideon, I understand the value of our system, more importantly have put my life on the line for it quit often. I'll even agree with you idealistically. However, decisions and actions have to be measured based on the larger picture.

When 280M population is at stake, I can justify the collateral number of errors that "might" take place. Maybe that's because I don't live in an idealistic world and view protecting JoeUser at most any cost. What I don't quite understand is stretches the subject matter out of proportion by including local CPS actions into this discussion. I can only hope you're not basing the inclusion on personal circumstances One "GWB's actions" do not equal the other, being the mind set of CPS or LE on local issues.

The governments 4700+ were terrorist investigations, and not assumptions of guilt. Something in their lives was brought to the attention of agency terrorist units. I assure you it wasn't based on loud stereo's or long grass, not even smoking it. Equating the level of those investigations to simplified acts doesn't seem worthy of your writing skills. Since you brought CPS into the equation I should include my wife's fifteen years as a highly educated LCSW and Sr Clinical Manager over several ongoing adolescent cases at an institute that's aligned with Child Protective Services on a national basis. CPS is part of her life 24/7, and I know more about operations that never happened then can be discussed.

Would GWB use his Presidential authority arbitrarily to usurp any Amendment to support down stream investigations that don't pertain to terrorism and might even infringe on honest "JoeUsers" day to day life of mowing his lawn or speeding.... I think NOT.
Reply #19 Top
umm, dr...

The problem is, in the alleged conversations, individuals within the United States WERE a party.


FISA does not say individuals within the United States. It says " to which a United States person is a party". Read that as an American citizen. Someone who is an alien (non-citizen) is who this was aimed at. A non-citizen may be "within" the US.
Reply #20 Top
Gideon, take a look at this. It is a pretty reasoned, thought out exploration of facts, laws, and relevant data ... unlike a lot of what is out there.


Link



Reply #21 Top
Simple. Use the tools we already have at our disposal. Using your logic, we could override the Constitution in virtually EVERY criminal investigation. We can't allow ourselves to do that.

I don't know if the law WAS violated here, but I DO believe it should be investigated. And not by journalists, either, but by an independent investigator who will let the chips fall where they may.


Actually not at all, the Constitution mandates many things for criminal investigations. I'm not arguing that anything should change when it comes to treatment of suspects and investigations of crimes.

What I am saying is that people who join up with an enemy during wartime are not criminals, they are the very "domestic" enemies that many of us have sworn to protect the Constitution against. If we are to treat every enemy who is found within our borders as a "criminal", then we offer our enemies our own U.S. Constitution as a weapon to be used against us.

I agree with you though, an investigation is warranted here. Actually it SHOULD have been called for back when Prs. Bush first announced to members of Congress... but apparently that wouldn't have fit their political agenda.

The other investigation needs to be to discover who leaked the details of an on going operation to the press. Whether the "spying" was legal or not, someone released classified information to the press, the public, and the enemy. That in itself is not only a crime, it could be a treasonous act (making it a capital crime). Someone put their petty politics over the lives of all of us.
Reply #22 Top
FISA does not say individuals within the United States. It says " to which a United States person is a party". Read that as an American citizen. Someone who is an alien (non-citizen) is who this was aimed at. A non-citizen may be "within" the US.


Actually, the definition of "United States person" is a U.S. citizen, OR an alien with legal residence in the U.S. If they are an illegal alien, then they are not protected. But, if they are green card holders, or work visa holders, etc., they are protected.
Reply #23 Top

Actually, the definition of "United States person" is a U.S. citizen, OR an alien with legal residence in the U.S. If they are an illegal alien, then they are not protected. But, if they are green card holders, or work visa holders, etc., they are protected.

Yes!  I was going to post that, but thanks for saying it!

Reply #24 Top

FISA does not say individuals within the United States. It says " to which a United States person is a party". Read that as an American citizen. Someone who is an alien (non-citizen) is who this was aimed at. A non-citizen may be "within" the US.


Actually, the definition of "United States person" is a U.S. citizen, OR an alien with legal residence in the U.S. If they are an illegal alien, then they are not protected. But, if they are green card holders, or work visa holders, etc., they are protected.


That may well be but I'd be willing to bet that the definition would change for an alien with legal US residence, if that person found themselves on the wrong list.
Reply #25 Top
I'd be willing to bet


So there's no betting ....

The statute enacted in 1978.7 authorizes a judge on the FISA court to grant an application for an order approving electronic surveillance to “obtain foreign intelligence information” if “there is probable cause to believe that . . . the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power,” and that “each of the facilities or places at which the surveillance is directed is being used, or is about to be used, by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

(1) information that relates to, and if concerning a United States person is necessary to, the ability of the United States to protect against–
A) actual or potential attack or other grave hostile acts of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
B) sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or
C) clandestine intelligence activities by an intelligence service or network of a foreign power or by an agent of a foreign power.

The definition of an agent of a foreign power, if it pertains to a U.S. person (which is the only category relevant to this case), is closely tied to criminal activity. The term includes any person who “knowingly engages in clandestine intelligence gathering activities . . . which activities involve or may involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States,” or “knowingly engages in sabotage or international terrorism, or activities that are in preparation therefor.

International terrorism refers to activities that “involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any State. Sabotage means activities that “involve a violation of chapter 105 of [the criminal code], or that would involve such a violation if committed against the United States. For purposes of clarity in this opinion we will refer to the crimes referred to in section 1801(a)-(e) as foreign intelligence crimes.10

More germain to the original subject matter:

Congress was concerned about the government’s use of FISA surveillance to obtain information not truly intertwined with the government’s efforts to protect against threats from foreign powers. Accordingly, the certification of purpose under section 1804(a)(7)(B) served to prevent the practice of targeting, for example, a foreign power for electronic surveillance when the true purpose of the surveillance is to gather information about an individual for other than foreign intelligence purposes. It is also designed to make explicit that the sole purpose of such surveillance is to secure “foreign intelligence information,” as defined, and not to obtain some other type of information.

As of 2003 - A loophole from 1978 was closed by providing that not only does it cover the person working for a foreign government, or who we can prove at that point is working for a foreign terrorist organization, it also includes the so-called lone wolf terrorist, or the individual we cannot yet prove is directly affiliated with one of these amorphous groups.