Draginol Draginol

USA vs. Europe: Freedom vs. Fairness

USA vs. Europe: Freedom vs. Fairness

A look at the philosophies behind two great cultures

Blogs occasionally seem to have a Europe vs. United States mentality. I've seen it since the beginning of blogging. Why is that? Why is so much scorn reserved for Americans from Europeans? Why is such contempt shown for Europeans? I think I have the answer: Drastically different philosophies on life.

Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom.  Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone.  The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there.

But because so many Europeans like individual Americans (and vice versa) the argument usually gets shifted to the "administrations" of the various countries.  The typical American is a nice guy right? It's not his fault that the United States is full of gun toting, capital punishment supporting, SUV driving, CO2 producing zealots. What do you expect with Bush in charge? And "Old Europe" is a mess not because of the typical Belgian or German or Frenchman, it's cynical and corrupt politicians like Chirac or Schroeder that make it seem so crummy to us.

What both fail to realize that in a democracy, the people get what they want. Sometimes it takes awhile but eventually their cultures will get a government that represents them. Some people are aghast that the United States has capital punishment. But an overwhelming majority of Americans supports capital punishment. So we elect leaders who support it. Both Kerry and Bush support capital punishment. They have to. They wouldn't get elected otherwise. But why do Americans support capital punishment? Because we're a bunch of "Cowboys"? No. It's because we believe in having a great deal of freedom in our lives but we also believe that freedom comes with a price -- personal responsibility.

Great freedom requiring personal responsibility is one of the cornerstones of American culture. And it is a relatively foreign concept to Europeans (not personal responsibility but the relationship between the two).  We pretty much allow people to do what they want here.  You can own a gun with few exceptions. There are few regulations in being an entrepreneur.  But at the same time, there are few regulations to keep a company from simply bombing on its own.  People in the United States aren't taxed very much relatively speaking. They're free to make decisions on how they want to spend the money they earn. But on the other side of the coin, they also are free to make poor choices and end up in the gutter.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Europe but Europeans have never had the kinds of freedoms Americans have. Even today. It was, after all, a big reason why so many Europeans came to the United States in the first place. The US government is formed on the basis of the federal government essentially providing a handful of essential services. It's actually the weakest central government in the industrialized world in terms of its domestic power. But Europeans have not demanded the kinds of freedoms Americans want. A European might correctly point out that too much freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. And that Europeans have chosen to pull back a bit from the brink that Americans seem so readily to jump over in order to try to create a more just society.

Remember, the French revolution cry was not freedom or death as it was in the United States. It was split amongst 3 principles: liberty, equality, fraternity. Much of "old Europe" could be described in this way. The government exists to help make things more fair -- more equal. It's not fair for some people to be incredibly rich while others are incredibly poor. A European would look at the gap between the richest Americans and the poorest Americans as evidence that the American system isn't working. An American would look at the same evidence and point out that it is working as designed. The only concern Americans would have is if the rich got rich from cheating the system in some way. Americans, generally, do not envy the rich because they believe they have a shot at being one of them if they play their cards right. And even if they don't, odds are they'll end up doing pretty well.

The descendants of Europe who live in the United States have a significantly better standard of living than anywhere else in the world. And the American system works so well that descendents from Africa have the highest standard of living of any people with African heritage in the world -- despite having been slaves only a bit over a century ago. But there's a catch (isn't there always?) The poorest Americans live pretty darn poorly compared to people in similar situations in Europe. If life were an obstacle course where 90% of the people were able to compete it and 10% didn't, the 90% in the US are rewarded far more than the 90% in Europe. But at the same time, the 10% who can't do it suffer more in the US than they do in Europe. So which path do you take?

As an American, I've been instilled with its cultural values. So I prefer freedom to fairness. I have sympathy for those who haven't been able to make the cut in American society but I also don't want to see our freedoms further eroded in order to prop them up. I don't like the way things are in "old Europe". My views aren't shared by all Americans. But they are shared by most Americans. And vice versa in Europe. And the result of democracy in action (or representative government if you're anal retentive) is that the system is set up to reflect our values -- just like the French and Germans and Belgians and so on have governments that reflect theirs. And that's a good thing.

75,097 views 155 replies
Reply #126 Top

UK vs USA

The UK is ten years ahead of the USA.

UK

Average wage... $41,165
Average hours worked per year...1652
Average wage per hour worked...$24.91
Minimum wage...$21,262
Paid holiday per year...4.8 weeks
Number of people sleeping rough short term...487
Number of people sleeping rough long term...0
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...0.41
National debt...43%
WHO ranking...18th

USA

Average wage... $38,651
Average hours worked per year...1777
Average wage per hour worked...$21.75
Minimum wage...$12,168
Paid holiday per year...0 to 9 days
Number of people sleeping rough short term...1.5 million
Number of people sleeping rough long term...860,000
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...14.24
National debt...61%
WHO ranking...37th


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 

  That should end this post. Can we close this post now please?

Reply #127 Top

The government gives a median wage in each country usually based on the same method, now if you tewo disagree then you have to show where your government got it wrong and what you think the average wage should be.

End of quote

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can take any number published by the American government and declare it the "average wage". You are still using the average wage index, aren't you?

The second point baffles me. I already gave the correct average wage for the US and UK with source. What's the problem?

 

Reply #128 Top

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html

End of quote

You are still using the average wage index, even after being told that it is NOT the same as "average wage" and why.

 

That should end this post. Can we close this post now please?

End of quote

Sure. I think it is pretty clear that you don't know what you are talking about. Why else would you keep confusing the AWI with average wage and ignore external debt as given by your own sources?

 

The UK is ten years ahead of the USA.

End of quote

With the qualifiers that that conclusion is based on comparing the average wage of British full-time workers to a number that is not the average wage of any group and that you have to ignore external debts of the two countries.

 

Reply #129 Top

WHO ranking

End of quote

This one is funny. You have to read the report to find out what the numbers mean. Turns out the WHO used several measurements and the number is based on the individual results.

"Responsiveness"

US leads.

"Fairness of financial contribution"

US trails. Note that this category is completely subjective. The WHO just decided what constitutes "fairness" and that fairness was a positive aspect. But obviously depending on the definition of fairness, "fairness" can be good or bad.

"Overall Level of Health"

They do not give individual results.

"Distribution of Health in the Populations"

No individual results given.

"Distribution of Financing"

This is based on where the resources for the health system come from. It is again subjective, as the WHO decides what constitutes a "good" source for resources and what constitutes a "bad" source.

 

Looks to me like our British friend has (again) failed to read the source he was referring to. And it looks to me like the US win in objective categories and are then downgraded because of WHO opinion.

 

Comparing the US to the UK by referring to someone's _opinion_ seems odd to me. Note that not all the categories are opinion. Some can be tested scientifically. But what constitutes "fair" and what is "good" is entirely subjective. If the WHO had used American opinion on fairness and good rather than European opinion, the US would have led the field. (I assume it is obvious that the US and Europe disagree on what constitutes a fair system?)

 

Reply #130 Top

The government gives a median wage in each country usually based on the same method, now if you tewo disagree then you have to show where your government got it wrong and what you think the average wage should be.
End of quote

We already did.  You were not using average, but median (a bad number since it does not represent average, but middle), and not even the US median.  Why do you refuse to understand the basic flaw of your logic?  When it was shown to you?  That is your problem I guess.  But I will state again.  This article has nothing to do with "who is better" but who is different, and why.

It appears that you seem to think you must defend a point not made, probably out of some misdirected guilt about why you think Britian is worse.

Reply #131 Top

Why do you refuse to understand the basic flaw of your logic?  When it was shown to you?

End of quote

I was baffled when he came back to us citing the average wage index AGAIN. It seems like he totally ignored, perhaps bever even saw, everything that was said about it.

 

Reply #132 Top

UK: GDP per capita $35k.

USA: GDP per capita $46k

Unless there are robots or other non-humans in the mix, this is the definitive objective measure of how wealthy the population of a nation state is. Everything else is spin.

Most of the other statistics DashingPrince gives demonstrate that he believes fairness trumps freedom which was the point of the article - Europeans value fairness.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have listed things as minimum wage or the number of people "sleeping rough" as his "proof" that the UK is "10 years ahead".

Incidentally, the statistics for UK on "sleeping rough" are hilarious. UK apparently has "0" chronically homeless people. What do they have? Homeless people catchers patrolling the streets of London snapping up homeless people and taking them to human kennels?

 

Reply #133 Top

Unless there are robots or other non-humans in the mix, this is the definitive objective measure of how wealthy the population of a nation state is. Everything else is spin.

End of quote

GDP/P doesn't include wealth created by unpaid labour, like stay-at-home wives etc.. It does show how much people can spent though.

 

Most of the other statistics DashingPrince gives demonstrate that he believes fairness trumps freedom which was the point of the article - Europeans value fairness.

End of quote

I myself value fairness, but do not always agree with European definitions of "fairness". (For example for many Europeans it is "fair" when I pay taxes to support those who can work but reject jobs.)

I think the statistics "DashingPrince" gave simply show that he doesn't understand that average wage index and average wage are not the same thing and that the world simply isn't complex enough for two numbers with similar names to exist.

 

Reply #134 Top

  LOL. Clearly the stats posted caused an uproar amongst anti English right wing trolls. Well I will not apologise for that.

  Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

  Average wage index is what both the UK and the USA use, so it is the only sensible and fair way to define stats. We will stick with average wage index as GDP PPP is NEVER used by any government.

  0 long term homeless in the UK is because the UK does indeed have groups of people walking the streets offering homeless people accomodation it is a human right in the UK for every citizen to have accomodation, you really are a bunch of idiots.

   Basically the USA is an average European nation with a big population, thats all.

  Ten years behind the UK.

  UK [freedom and fairness] ....vs....  USA [freedom and poverty, unequality, low wages, over worked, crime ridden, obese, poor health.]

  Sorry but the personal insults won't win over government stats.

  Try again McCain fans.

 

Reply #135 Top

UK vs USA

The UK is ten years ahead of the USA.

UK

Average wage... $41,165
Average hours worked per year...1652
Average wage per hour worked...$24.91
Minimum wage...$21,262
Paid holiday per year...4.8 weeks
Number of people sleeping rough short term...487
Number of people sleeping rough long term...0
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...0.41
National debt...43%
WHO ranking...18th
Number of people dieing of cancer per 100,000 per year...253.5
Child maltreatment deaths per 100,000 children...0.4
Universities > Top 100 (per capita)...9th
Education Science...4th
Education Maths...7th
Education English...7th

USA

Average wage... $38,651
Average hours worked per year...1777
Average wage per hour worked...$21.75
Minimum wage...$12,168
Paid holiday per year...0 to 9 days
Number of people sleeping rough short term...1.5 million
Number of people sleeping rough long term...860,000
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...14.24
National debt...61%
WHO ranking...37th
Education Science...14th
Education Maths...18th
Education English...15th
Number of people dieing of cancer per 100,000 per year...321.9
Child maltreatment deaths per 100,000 children...2.2Education
Universities > Top 100 (per capita)...13th
Education Science...14th
Education Maths...18th
Education English...15th


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

 

Reply #136 Top

Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

End of quote

Again, the number you think is the average wages for the US means something else.

As for the other numbers, we have already refuted them. It just seems you are impervious to, well, refutations.

The WHO ranking is, as I explained, based on how close a system is to the European standard of fairness. To take that rankin as proof that the European standard is better is silly. You'd need statistics that show objective benefits rather than ideological closeness for that.

The average wages comparison you do is bogus since you compare full-time workers' average wages in the UK to a number that is NOT the average wages for any group in the US.

Your public debt comparison ignores external debt.

Minimum wage is a definition, not a statistic.

 

Frankly, you seem to be the most ignorant idiot I have met here in a while, and it has nothing to do with you being against McCain or anti-American. MOST advocates of Europe are cleverer than you and know that to compare average wages you need two numbers that actually represent average wages.

 

Reply #137 Top

(spam removed by moderator - it's rude to keep reposting the same comment over and over)

Reply #138 Top

Average wage index is what both the UK and the USA use

End of quote

Use for what? It's not a statistic. It's a definition.

I assume that both governments use such a number as threshold for social security taxes. But since the number is CHOSEN by government (by definiting an upper limit and calculating the average of the rest), it is a useless number for statistical purposes.

Incidentally, the number given by the UK government is _NOT_ an average wage index. I don't know how the British social security system operates but it would surprise me if they cut off social security taxes at the same point as the US. And even if they did the numbers would still be meaningless because they don't tell us what percentage of workers earn more than that limit. (Not to mention the problem that the average wage on the UK site is for full-time workers, not all workers.)

Don't you get it?

You are comparing the average wages of _British full-time workers_ to a number that does NOT represent the average wages of any group.

I gave you the average wages for both UK and US, including source. US was higher.

But please, feel superior. It's just that everybody can see that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Reply #139 Top

"DashingPrince",

How much more than the UK average salary do you make?

 

Reply #140 Top

Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.
End of quote

Why?  You already posted the links that refute your statements.

LOL. Clearly the stats posted caused an uproar amongst anti English right wing trolls. Well I will not apologise for that.
End of quote

Again, where?  There are no trolls here, nor anyone trashing england.  Why are you so paranoid?  Show us where anyone has said (since this thread was re-opened) anything derogatory about england?

Try again McCain fans.
End of quote

beyond paranoia?  Brad has written several articles on why he does not like McCain and will not vote for him.  YOu can peruse the comments on this site and see my sentiments are very close, and only an act of God will compel me to vote for him (I will not completely rule it out, but 10% is in the slim chance category).  And Leauki is not American.  I think you are reading the wrong blog before posting comments, because your comments have no basis in reality.

Reply #141 Top

And Leauki is not American.

End of quote

But I occasionally think about trying to become one. Ironically that is because I would earn more money in the US and be able to buy a house for less than here.

I have never even been in America, or anywhere outside Europe and the two Asian countries I keep writing about.

 

Reply #142 Top

But I occasionally think about trying to become one. Ironically that is because I would earn more money in the US and be able to buy a house for less than here.
End of quote

I would be honored to have such an enlightened person such as you as a fellow citizen in my country. I hate to think you would have to go thru all the "BS" that LW's hubby has been going thru just to be a citizen. But you are welcome to try and endure it. }:)

Reply #143 Top

beyond paranoia? Brad has written several articles on why he does not like McCain and will not vote for him. YOu can peruse the comments on this site and see my sentiments are very close, and only an act of God will compel me to vote for him (I will not completely rule it out, but 10% is in the slim chance category). And Leauki is not American. I think you are reading the wrong blog before posting comments, because your comments have no basis in reality.
End of quote

DashingPrince seems like a suitable name for this blogger since he seems to be dashing into these articles without knowing what he is commenting about and seems to be a Prince at it leaning to King of dashing in without knowing.

Reply #144 Top

I would be honored to have such an enlightened person such as you as a fellow citizen in my country.

End of quote

Thank you. :-)

Within the next two years, I think, the final decision will be made.

 

Reply #145 Top

  The British and US governments use the same average wage index as I have shown and told you. Making arguements that have already been refuted won't wash with me, sorry.

  The stats posted stand, anti Englishness,  or right wing trolling is indeed all you chaps were here for.

  In your last few posts not one link was posted.

  I guess just as the service based economy has won over the old industrial economies then so has freedom and fairness of the UK won over freedom and cruelty of the USA.

  I'll take this as a victory.

Reply #146 Top

(removed by moderator - reposting the same comment over and over doesn't make what you say accurate. Address what others have said rather than covering your ears and bellowing what you said before. It's also extremely rude.)

Reply #147 Top

Quoting Dashingprince, reply 134


  LOL. Clearly the stats posted caused an uproar amongst anti English right wing trolls. Well I will not apologise for that.

End of Dashingprince's quote

 LOL.  It's pretty well known around here that I'm an anglophile.  

GDP is one of the most objective statistics there is.  You divide that by the population to get an idea of how wealthy the population is.  That's how it's done.

The US is wealthier than UK. Anyone who has spent any serious time in both can tell you that. 

Does that make the US "better" (or "ahead") of UK? No.  Europe to a greater extent and Britain to a lesser extent have different priorities.  In Europe, people vacation much more. There are more social safety nets. There is universal health insurance. There is a much more "equitable" revenue distribution system.  

In short, things are more "fair" in Europe than in the US.

But in the US, the values are different. Individualism and freedom are more highly prized. We choose not to vacation as much, we choose to focus more on producing wealth and taking individual responsibility for our own lives.  

It's not that one is better than the other, that's subjective. It is that the two are very different.


  Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

End of quote

Oh look, we have a debate referree. lol.

 

Reply #148 Top

DashingPrince, quit spamming my comments area with the same comment.  Reposting the same stuff that others have refuted doesn't suddenly make it true.  

If you can't control yourself, I'll remove you.

Reply #149 Top

Quoting Dashingprince, reply 145


  The British and US governments use the same average wage index as I have shown and told you. Making arguements that have already been refuted won't wash with me, sorry.
  The stats posted stand, anti Englishness,  or right wing trolling is indeed all you chaps were here for.
  In your last few posts not one link was posted.
  I guess just as the service based economy has won over the old industrial economies then so has freedom and fairness of the UK won over freedom and cruelty of the USA.
  I'll take this as a victory.

End of Dashingprince's quote

Well good, maybe now you can wander off and let the adults continue their discussion.  In fact, let me help you out the door.

Reply #150 Top

In fact, let me help you out the door.
End of quote

You know, the one major downside to blogging online compared to chatting face to face is that when someone gets helped "out the door", we are left to our imagination to picture this or sometimes an image like the one below can be used to spark the imagination, but could never replace actaully seeing the person being shown the door.