USA vs. Europe: Freedom vs. Fairness

Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

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USA vs. Europe: Freedom vs. Fairness

A look at the philosophies behind two great cultures

Blogs occasionally seem to have a Europe vs. United States mentality. I've seen it since the beginning of blogging. Why is that? Why is so much scorn reserved for Americans from Europeans? Why is such contempt shown for Europeans? I think I have the answer: Drastically different philosophies on life.

Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom. Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone. The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there.

But because so many Europeans like individual Americans (and vice versa) the argument usually gets shifted to the "administrations" of the various countries. The typical American is a nice guy right? It's not his fault that the United States is full of gun toting, capital punishment supporting, SUV driving, CO2 producing zealots. What do you expect with Bush in charge? And "Old Europe" is a mess not because of the typical Belgian or German or Frenchman, it's cynical and corrupt politicians like Chirac or Schroeder that make it seem so crummy to us.

What both fail to realize that in a democracy, the people get what they want. Sometimes it takes awhile but eventually their cultures will get a government that represents them. Some people are aghast that the United States has capital punishment. But an overwhelming majority of Americans supports capital punishment. So we elect leaders who support it. Both Kerry and Bush support capital punishment. They have to. They wouldn't get elected otherwise. But why do Americans support capital punishment? Because we're a bunch of "Cowboys"? No. It's because we believe in having a great deal of freedom in our lives but we also believe that freedom comes with a price -- personal responsibility.

Great freedom requiring personal responsibility is one of the cornerstones of American culture. And it is a relatively foreign concept to Europeans (not personal responsibility but the relationship between the two). We pretty much allow people to do what they want here. You can own a gun with few exceptions. There are few regulations in being an entrepreneur. But at the same time, there are few regulations to keep a company from simply bombing on its own. People in the United States aren't taxed very much relatively speaking. They're free to make decisions on how they want to spend the money they earn. But on the other side of the coin, they also are free to make poor choices and end up in the gutter.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Europe but Europeans have never had the kinds of freedoms Americans have. Even today. It was, after all, a big reason why so many Europeans came to the United States in the first place. The US government is formed on the basis of the federal government essentially providing a handful of essential services. It's actually the weakest central government in the industrialized world in terms of its domestic power. But Europeans have not demanded the kinds of freedoms Americans want. A European might correctly point out that too much freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. And that Europeans have chosen to pull back a bit from the brink that Americans seem so readily to jump over in order to try to create a more just society.

Remember, the French revolution cry was not freedom or death as it was in the United States. It was split amongst 3 principles: liberty, equality, fraternity. Much of "old Europe" could be described in this way. The government exists to help make things more fair -- more equal. It's not fair for some people to be incredibly rich while others are incredibly poor. A European would look at the gap between the richest Americans and the poorest Americans as evidence that the American system isn't working. An American would look at the same evidence and point out that it is working as designed. The only concern Americans would have is if the rich got rich from cheating the system in some way. Americans, generally, do not envy the rich because they believe they have a shot at being one of them if they play their cards right. And even if they don't, odds are they'll end up doing pretty well.

The descendants of Europe who live in the United States have a significantly better standard of living than anywhere else in the world. And the American system works so well that descendents from Africa have the highest standard of living of any people with African heritage in the world -- despite having been slaves only a bit over a century ago. But there's a catch (isn't there always?) The poorest Americans live pretty darn poorly compared to people in similar situations in Europe. If life were an obstacle course where 90% of the people were able to compete it and 10% didn't, the 90% in the US are rewarded far more than the 90% in Europe. But at the same time, the 10% who can't do it suffer more in the US than they do in Europe. So which path do you take?

As an American, I've been instilled with its cultural values. So I prefer freedom to fairness. I have sympathy for those who haven't been able to make the cut in American society but I also don't want to see our freedoms further eroded in order to prop them up. I don't like the way things are in "old Europe". My views aren't shared by all Americans. But they are shared by most Americans. And vice versa in Europe. And the result of democracy in action (or representative government if you're anal retentive) is that the system is set up to reflect our values -- just like the French and Germans and Belgians and so on have governments that reflect theirs. And that's a good thing.

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That would probably be because in some other chapter it says, and I quote: "Thou shalt be free to not give a damn about thy neighbor".

I am interested to have the precise reference of this quote.

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Well, it's right in between the chapters "Sarcasm in the Holy Land - A journey of discovery" and "The Second Coming of Babylon and other examples of Irony". It takes a bit of looking but as it said in the bible, and again I quote: "Search and thou shalt find".

Don't hesitate to ask if you have trouble finding this one as well.

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Sorry, but I haven't any clue where to find "Thou shalt be free to not give a damn about thy neighbor", unless it is some twisted translations of one of the tenth commandments

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Everytime when i turn on a socialist news network (bbc, cnn, etc) they always say the usa is (conquring the land) instead of liberating:
liberating: destroy and replace govnment
conquering: actually taking over the pple and establishing cities and such.

if we conqure then we wouldnt waste our time, we would kill anyone that gets in our way, liberating isnt that simple tho.

all i heard was where were thos wmds? WELL DUH. HE USED THEM ON HIS OWN PPLE AND SENT MISSILES TO ISRAEL, WOULD U LIKE SOME OF THE REMAINS OF THOUSANDS DEAD TO PROVE HE HAD THEM? WMDS ALSO INCLUDES: NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

history: japan ( which the usa bombed to the ground) usa then makes that country 2nd learget economy on world.

history: germany (whch the usa LIBERATED SINCE I DONT THING GERMANY IS PART OF THE USA NOW OR EVER WAS) got bombed to the ground and guess wut, its among the top 5 largest economies.

Funny, I thought liberating was about helping people to be free. To "destroy and replace government" paints a slightly different image I'm sure you'll agree.

You sure liberated Japan, didn't you? To actually conquer them you would have had to actually invade the country, which was just not going to happen. I'm sure all the Japanese felt very happy when they got bombed and loved the Americans for it. Winning a war is not liberation and you are foolish to believe it to be so. War is war and don't try and make yourselves out to be some kind of wonderful country just because you won one.

As for Germany, how exactly did you liberate them? Did you lose over 27 million fighting them and then over a million fighting in the streets of Berlin to take the city? No, but Russia did. They were the ones that defeated Germany.
As for the Western front, put it this way, if your friend needs say $10 million to save his business and you give him $5 million and other people give him $5 million, who saved the business? You alone? You could not have liberated France, Belgium and the Netherlands (which seem to me the ones that were liberated in WWII as they wanted to not be under their current rule) without the rest of the Allies, just as they could not have done it without the US.

As for Iraq, sure there may well be WMD there that we can't find. But no-one has found one in my room yet, so does that mean I have them? Until they are found they don't exist, and the whole war was based on something that didn't exist and is illegal.

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As for Iraq, sure there may well be WMD there that we can't find. But no-one has found one in my room yet, so does that mean I have them? Until they are found they don't exist, and the whole war was based on something that didn't exist and is illegal.

Much like the war against Milosevic. We all kept hearing how there were mass graves and how thousands and thousands of people were being ethnically cleansed, but that's not what there was. All the recent wars have been fought based on lies.

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Super Baby,
thousands and thousands of people were ethnically cleaned. The following are various estimates, ranging from the US government to the UN

U.S. State Dept.:250,000 (Bosnia and Herzegovina Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1996 (www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1996_hrp_report/bosniahe.html)
UN: 200,000
Times [London]: 200,000, (incl Sarajevo: 15,000 , Massacred in Srebrenica: 8,000)
MEDIAN: ca. 175,000
International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights: more than 160,000 (Annual Report 1997 [http://www.ihf-hr.org/ar97bos.htm])

As for mass graves,
4,700 bodies exhumed in one grave alone in Srebrenica

Why do you think this war was a lie? The proof is there.

Paul.

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conquering: actually taking over the pple and establishing cities and such.

nonsense. All we have to do is install a puppet government and exploit their resources. That fits the definition of conquest pretty squarely in this day and age. And isn't this what Bush has been trying to do? Afterall, there are two kinds of democratic governments. One elected by the people, and another one appointed by America.

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I was watching a session of the Brittish governments debate where the leaders of both parties, the Torries and the Labour debate. It was shocking to hear the issues they argued about. They argued that under thier welfare system dependancy was growing. I cant remember at what level it was percentage, but it was outrageous. Americans would never stand for something like its. Arguing over a sysytem that creates dependancy? They were blaming each other, instaead to realizing that the system was a piece if Shi@!

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Why is such contempt shown for Europeans?

Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom. Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone. The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there.

You are correct sir, that is why.

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people in Europe really do not like being frequently reminded of the negative past. Especially when European ideals and outlooks are frequently critised by those same people. You can't demonise France and Germany for opposing war in Iraq on one hand and then demonise their WW2 history in another. Their modern outlook is strongly linked to their history and experience. Likewise you can;t demonise their WW2 behaviour and then critise their freedom of speech laws. You must look at everything in conjunction. You must also realise that Europe has moved beyond WW2. Comparing the current world against WW2 is wrong. Just because millions were exterminated in WW2 does not make it acceptable to Europeans that even 1 can be executed today.

We do not demonize either France or Germany for their WW2 history. We DO however demonize "Hitler".

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You can't demonise France and Germany for opposing war in Iraq on one hand and then demonise their WW2 history in another.

I think you can.

As long as France and Germany always end up supporting the guy with the moustache who attacks his neighbours and gases people, we can certainly demonise them for it; regardless of why they happen to support that guy at the particular moment.

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Europe does take action when it feels the need to. It took action in the Balkans France took action in Sierra Leone. It took action in Haiti.

Which pretty much destroys the image of the pacifist idealists.

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Since USA claims links with christianity ("in god we trust"), I would like to know how the emphasis on Freedom works with the following scriptures:

That would probably be because in some other chapter it says, and I quote: "Thou shalt be free to not give a damn about thy neighbor".

The most profound truth about the bible is that it can be used to prove the points of any side in any conflict, which renders it completely worthless in any intelligent discussion.

So according to "your" logic, we (the US) don't help anyone, ever? Is that correct?

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Wow, this is quite an intense articulate article with equally articulate and intense replies.

Heres mine.

USA rules. Europe sucks!

Hows that for American culturalism?

Buwhahhwhaha

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Not sure if this was some anti EU troll blog or what but here goes.

The UK average wage is $42,000 a year with 4.8 weeks payed leave. The average wage in the USA is $38,000 a year and no payed leave.

The UK has less than 500 people living rough per evening and 0 long term rough sleepers. The USA has 860,000 long term sleeping rough and up to 1.5 million people sleeping rough per evening.

The UK has 46% of people in university, the USA has less than 33%.

If the UK and the USA both had the same population the USA would not be able to compete with the UK, therefore the Uk is a better ran, more free and far far more fair country than the USA. Also a more successful country.

If the USA had 60 million people and the UK 300 million, we would not be talking as the USA would be so far behind we would struggle to remember who exactly you are.

The UK is 10 years ahead fo the USA whichever way you look at it, I am afraid.

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Not sure if this was some anti EU troll blog or what but here goes.

You are new here. You forgot to give a source for your numbers.

The UK average wage is $42,000 a year with 4.8 weeks payed leave. The average wage in the USA is $38,000 a year and no payed leave.

When was that? According to worldsalaries.org, the average employment income in 2005 were

US$42,000 (USA)

US$32,600 (UK)

http://www.worldsalaries.org/usa.shtml

http://www.worldsalaries.org/uk.shtml

(According to the same source Germany is US$34,900 but I believe UK is higher than Germany. I know Ireland is.)

The UK has less than 500 people living rough per evening and 0 long term rough sleepers. The USA has 860,000 long term sleeping rough and up to 1.5 million people sleeping rough per evening.

Sources?

The UK has 46% of people in university, the USA has less than 33%.

That doesn't surprise me. Economies that offer free third-level education always end up with many students financed and supported by the rest of the economy. It's a bad sign if there are too many people in university rather than production.

The reason the USA have a greater population than the UK is because they did compete in the 19th century and the US won.

The EU and US compete now, and the US is doing better. More people are moving from the EU to the US than vice versa. If the situation were as you describe it, migration would be reversed.

Fact is that doctors leave Germany for Scandinavia and Ireland and Europe is running out of network and IT specialists. The UK is not doing much better. Ireland is.

I myself moved from Germany to Ireland for at partly economic reasons (I make more money in Ireland). I would move to the US if they gave me a Green Card. And the same is true for many many others.

But on the other hand, you do not have people queueing up in Virginia waiting for a chance to move to Europe.

If the USA had 60 million people and the UK 300 million, we would not be talking as the USA would be so far behind we would struggle to remember who exactly you are.

If the USA had 60 million people and European countries had 300 million, the English would be speaking German now.

The UK is 10 years ahead fo the USA whichever way you look at it, I am afraid.

Perhaps, but the US do not want to go down that road and neither do most other countries. If Thatcher hadn't turned the UK economy around, nobody would even consider the UK as an example for anything any more.

I don't know how much actual experience you have with these things. I have seen the differences between countries. I have lived and worked in two countries and studied in three. What's your background?

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1. GDP PPP is not average wage just an attempt by anti English characters like yourself to rig stats. The USA government has their stats for average wage...

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html#Series

USA = $38,651.41

UK = $42,000

www.statistic.gov.uk.com

Keeping in mind americans work far longer hours than the UK and still earn less money and have less payed leave.

2. Universities in the UK are per head of population far superior to the USA and anywhere else.

The UK has 3 of the top 5 in the world, we only have 60 million people. Oxford and Cambridge are the most respected Universities in the world. Bill Clinton sent his daughter to one of them as he thought it was better than Yale, where Dubya went.

3. Only the poor or mega rich entertainers move to the USA. More USA citizens moved to the UK in the last 5 years than the other wyaa round.

In fact the UK usually move to france, spain, australia more than the USA due to high crime levels in the USA people are put off.

The entertainers only go because the USA has a higher population and thus more money to be made.

4. If the UK and the USA ahd the same numbers then yes the UK would be way ahead.

If the UK had not stood up to hitler then yes the world would be speaking german.

5. The Irish pay less tax than the UK and USA and get higher wages than the USA. The Irish have copied the UK's service based economy and done well.

Mervin King turned the UK's economy around and thats the way it is.

If the USA had 60 million poeple it would be on a par with Italy. Way behind the UK.

America is big not great. Next you will be telling me how great China and India are. They are also just big and not great.

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1. GDP PPP is not average wage just an attempt by anti English characters like yourself to rig stats. The USA government has their stats for average wage...

I was quoting average income, not GDP/P. What's anti-English about that?

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html#Series

USA = $38,651.41

That's the average wage index, a value used for determining social security entitlements. I don't know how it relates to average income, but it's lower.

UK = $42,000

www.statistic.gov.uk.com

The site you wanted to link to (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285) speaks of a median income of GBP 457 per week, i.e. 24000 per year. That is US$ 41000, but doesn't include the unemployed and part-time workers (statistics.gov.uk surveys full-time workers for that number). I assume if you do the calculations to include the unemployed etc, you arrive at the number worldsalaries.org quote.

Keeping in mind americans work far longer hours than the UK and still earn less money and have less payed leave.

But they don't earn less money.

And the current dollar value helps you here. I myself was happy to see that I suddenly made nearly 6 digits in US dollars. But goods remained expensive here and my money (in dollars) was worth less than the same amount would be in the US. How many Big Macs can I buy for an average UK income? And how many for an average US income?

(And what will you do when the dollar and pound fluctuate again? Switch sides?)

2. Universities in the UK are per head of population far superior to the USA and anywhere else.

Just wait where those universities are heading...

3. Only the poor or mega rich entertainers move to the USA. More USA citizens moved to the UK in the last 5 years than the other wyaa round.

Actually, mega rich entertainers tend to move from the US to France, but that's besides the point.

Where exactly are you getting your numbers from?

Anyway, better learn German. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it!

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This is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index

Ten fastest earned

Tokyo, Japan - 10 minutes
Los Angeles, United States - 11 minutes
Chicago, United States - 12 minutes
Miami, United States - 12 minutes
New York City, United States - 13 minutes
Auckland, New Zealand - 14 minutes
Sydney, Australia - 14 minutes
Toronto, Canada - 14 minutes
Zürich, Switzerland - 15 minutes
Dublin, Ireland - 15 minutes

I the US the average worker has to work 13 minutes for a Big Mac, in Ireland 15 minutes. The UK is not even in the list.

But New York has higher rents than Dublin, so I'd rather live here than there, money-wise.

Most everyday things cost twice as much in Ireland and the UK than in the US. Should we half the average income of the UK to take that into account?

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1. Average wage is average wage, you do not get a higher income than your wage. And yes it takes into account all people working. Not sure why youw nat to know what wage people who do not get a wage get.

Benefits in the UK are higher, the site I showed shows this.

You will say anything to prove some anti EU/UK agenda, you have been proven wrong.

2." Just wait where those universities are heading..." not sure what that is supposed to mean.

3. "mega rich move to France"...Again an invalid. Europes top destination for mega rich are Monaco, Swtzerland or Ireland all low tax.

Brad and Ange are not earning in France just living.

America is were TV producers, actors and directors from the UK go because of the larger population. Thus more money to be made.

4. Big Mac index shows goods cost more in the UK and we also have the richest minimum wage, no long term rough sleepers and well taken care of disabled. The USA fails on all three sadly, you have little human dignity.

5. Go to wikipedia minimum wage page [I can't paste anything on here]. Britains is nearly double the USA and goods are only 30% higher.

Basically amerians work lomge rhours, have less time off and get paid less.They pay less for goods at the expense of thir own people who are treated like dirt.

Hence why Obama wants america to be mroe european.

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Companies pay British workers more money per hour and give them 4.8 weeks payed leave than US workers.

Americans work more hours than UK workers, get paid less per hour and get less paid leave.

The government of the Uk add VAT onto goods so we pay more. This means the UK has 0 long term homeless, wealthy well housed poor, cared for diabled people and many more people in higher education.

The UK is in the top 8 for science, maths and English. [nation master website, education stats.] The USA is not even in the top 15.

Britain has bad weather and the USA has mainly better weather, but also hurricanes, earthquakes and rattlesnakes.

Gun deaths in the USA are on a par with thrid world countries, the UK has the lowest gun deaths per person in Europe.

Most immigrants to the USA are poor uneducated people from latin america or asia. The Europeans rarely move tot he USA nowadays. Many USA citizens do move to London to work in the worlds number one stock market, London.

The premier league is the world most watched sports league. NFL [gridiron] is no where close.

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Quoting mexician,

reply 18

all i heard was where were thos wmds? WELL DUH. HE USED THEM ON HIS OWN PPLE AND SENT MISSILES TO ISRAEL, WOULD U LIKE SOME OF THE REMAINS OF THOUSANDS DEAD TO PROVE HE HAD THEM? WMDS ALSO INCLUDES: NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

Look for the Downing Street memo. It is the minutes of a meeting between Bush and Blair where they discuss the best way to sell the war in Iraq. Topics included Humanitarianism, WMD's, Terrorism, Al Queida, etc. Further more the information for WMD's came from a leak of mid level inteligence officers from Germany. The source dubbed Curveball was deemed unreliable by German inteliigence, and a good amount of the US intelligence community as well. There was also a former minister from Iraq who was paid for and coached to signing a "blank check" confession supporting administration lines untill curveball came along. There was also the fake pictures and container of salt Colin Powel was sent to the UN with. No actual proof was offered going into Iraq, and none has been provided since. Lastly I refer you to the Project for the New American Century. A guideline for America to dominate this century beginning with the Invasion of Iraq(and continuing on to Iran). It was written by a more than healthy amount of members in the Bush Administration, including Dick Cheney(also the first man to give a speech on the issue of going to war with Iraq). Sidenote: The was also a memo from Spain dating in the beginning of March 2003, that wanted to know if Spain would support us in the war the president had decided was nessescery, while still publicly claiming he was attempting to exhuast all diplomatic options before commiting Our military to war. None of this was heard in Our, America's, "liberal" media though.

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You will say anything to prove some anti EU/UK agenda, you have been proven wrong.

So will you give sources for any of your claims?

Just giving a link to a Web site that, frankly, gives different numbers than you claim it does, and a broken link to another site is not enough.

I told you you are new here. You have to get used to giving sources.

No actual proof was offered going into Iraq

That's funny because when I was there the Kurdish officials kept telling me how Saddam gased their people and the UN officials kept claiming that Saddam didn't disclose the location of the poison gas labs and factories.

How come you "know" all this stuff if your sources are the media you are accusing of misrepresenting or ignoring facts?

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A guideline for America to dominate this century beginning with the Invasion of Iraq

Speaking as someone who grew up in American-occupied Berlin in a country liberated from fascism by an American invasion, I cannot say that I have a problem with American domination.

It has so far been absolutely excellent. We even managed to have fewer wars than before in Europe.

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Oh, boy:

External debt, total (million US$) and per nose (US$):

United States     13,773,135     42,343
United Kingdom     11,502,8002     189,855
Ireland     2,200,0003     509,529
Germany     4,489,000     54,604

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Personally, I find Ireland's external debt shocking. No wonder we could afford the new tram and all that stuff!

What does this tell us? If the US had only 60 million people, its debt would be one fifth of the UK's.

Wow.

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