I Love The USA

I agree with you 99%. America is a great country if you can and do work hard, save instead of spend and build a company or just a stock portfolio. All of the problems are with the people who are unable or unwilling to work hard.

You can go broke if you get sick. If you don't have health insurance, you might be able to get treatment at the ER, but then you will be billed and if you don't pay it, you have lousy credit. The only way to make the bill go away is to declare bankruptcy. If you have an income, the hospital will find a way to get your money.

You can go broke if you get sick. If you don't have health insurance, you might be able to get treatment at the ER, but then you will be billed and if you don't pay it, you have lousy credit. The only way to make the bill go away is to declare bankruptcy. If you have an income, the hospital will find a way to get your money.

This is one of those things that people don't understand, and is really never explained to anyone.  The laws about healthcare aren't really like that.  Yes, you may have debt if you have a big healthcare bill, but you will not go broke or get bad credit because of it.  If you make regular payments to the hospital (even if they are small) you are showing in good faith that you are repaying your debt and they can do nothing to you.  Now, this is where people go wrong- they don't pay *anything*.  At that point it is reported as bad debt and you get in trouble.  All hospitals have staff that will work with people to make a payment plan.  However, most people just don't do it then complain because they ended up with bad credit because of it.  If you are rendered a service, then you have to pay.  If you don't pay at all, then you deserve to get bad credit. Also, nothing prevents people from buying their own healthcare coverage.  Just like any other insurance, you can obtain it as an individual. 

I Love The USA

me too!

it's way possible to love something and still complain about it(like your parents). the best i ever heard someone put it:

"when right, to be kept right, when wrong, to be set right."(note: this does not work well against parents)

This is one of those things that people don't understand, and is really never explained to anyone. The laws about healthcare aren't really like that. Yes, you may have debt if you have a big healthcare bill, but you will not go broke or get bad credit because of it. If you make regular payments to the hospital (even if they are small) you are showing in good faith that you are repaying your debt and they can do nothing to you.

Actually, if you make regular payments that are lower than those requested by the hospital they can put a lien on any property you own and eventually move towards seizure. They can also lower your credit rating. They have the power to do all those things, it's just whether the guy in the office is a complete bastard. Oh, and as for nothing preventing people from getting healthcare coverage, how about the incredibly high price? When you're already trying to decide whether you're going to buy food or pay the rent, insurance isn't something you can afford.

Cheers

I have to agree with jeblackstar. Healthcare for the single individual is sky high. I can not seem to think that if the government can shell out billions to make war then they should be able to provide some type of healthcare for people who can not afford it. Other countries provide healthcare for it's people why can't we?
I get so tired of watching people running for office on the healthcare pulpit and then after they get elected they do nothing what-so-ever. Clinton did this and had 8 years to change something but its all still the same. Bush hyped up healthcare as well but where is it? Now John Kerry is saying the same.
I think America is a great country too but it could certainly do a much better job of taking care of it's own.
I won't even get started on the people who will go to bed hungry tonight. GCJ

If tomorrow we were given universal healthcare and free money for the poor, people would be gripe that they have to wait too long in line. 'Better', not even 'Best', will ever be good enough, because people will always be able to find fault.

Society is a balance. Does anyone pretend that there will ever be a social system with no poverty? If so, they'll just change the definition of poverty to something more prosperous for political argument, like they do now. People 100 years ago could never fathom the modern definition of 'poor'.

The root cause of all this angst is the misguided idea that you can EVER be satisfied. If you believe that there are no problems with your system of government, then you have been brainwashed. Socialized healthcare around the world is rife with abuse and substandard care. People flock to the US for our "unfair" healthcare system. Poor people all over the world come to the US because they understand that "poor" here is to be preferred to their state in much of the world.

And above all, we have the freedom to better ourselves and our system of government. If you don't like it, work to change it. If you are to lazy to work to change it, then you have absolutely no right to complain. Sadly, people seem to feel that complaining is all they need to do.

I'm not advocating universal healthcare, I'm merely pointing out the falacy in the arguement.

Cheers

I don't agree that health care is that expensive. You can get basic insurance for a few hundred dollars per quarter. And you don't have to get it. You have to get car insurance too. And car insurance, ironically, is typically more expensive than health insurance for a lot of people.

One problem is the people who most need insurance never bother to look into it until AFTER they have gotten their job. I don't know how many co-workers have stormed in ranting about how bad the insurance packages suck... six months after they have taken the job.  We pay about $400 a month for amazingly good insurance, mainly because we picked the job *because* of the insurance.

It took my wife a year of temp work to find her way into a permanent position, and then she was constantly looking for steps up in the local job listings. Each step up added material to her resume, and finally in about 2 years she had all the benefits we needed. When she visits her old co-workers most of them are still there, complaining about their crappy benefits.

They have the same education, the same intelligence and skills, they just don't feel like looking for another job.

Actually, if you make regular payments that are lower than those requested by the hospital they can put a lien on any property you own and eventually move toward seizure.

You have to work with them to get a payment that you can afford.  There are social agents at all hospitals that over see this.  They can *not* put a lien on anything that you own.  Hospitals don't have that type of authority.  The worst that they can do is ruin your credit history.  There are *very* few entities that can put a lien on your property.  You (yourself) can as an insurance on a loan, a contractor building your house can put a lien on it for unpaid debt until you pay it, and the government can if you don't pay your land taxes.  Otherwise, entities can't put a lien on your belongings.  If that were the case, every creditor in the world would be placing a lien on your house for even a missed credit card payment.

Healthcare is also not government run.  I can only imagine the corruption that will happen if the government is footing the bill.  Just look what HMOs did for us.

Bakerstreet, I have a sister-in-law who is 28, has 3 bachelors degrees and claims she "can't" get a job.  Her boyfriend is the same way (but is older).  he claims that he can't get a job, even though I have told him to send in his resume multiple times.  Of course, those weren't "convenient" times for him to do so.  Some people just have no drive to succeed.  They see what other people have and think that the only reason why they don't have it is because they aren't so "lucky".

"requested by the hospital they can put a lien on any property you own and eventually move toward seizure"

Not so at all. In the US you can't lose your home, you can't lose your car. As a matter of fact, creditors overlook a lot of medical debt. I saw people come in to our business with 100k+ of medical debt and they got approved for credit all the time. Those kind of debts are so astronomical they don't even seem to count. Granted, the rest of us WITH insurance pay those debts in the long run because they are passed along to us and our insurance companies.

KarmaGirl: yep, sounds like my wife's friends. They have no concept of "entry level jobs". They think that the job you get when you get out of school is the job you retire from. They settle like a rock and then gripe.

The United States is a wonderful country.

However, this statement does not mean that we should not criticize. In my mind, developing (and stating) an informed opinion is one of the best ways to show one's patriotism in a republic.

The trouble is that, some conservatives seem to have a double standard about criticism. To hear them, it was patriotic to criticize Bill Clinton and our part in Kosovo, it is patriotic to criticize taxes, and it is patriotic to criticize the size of the goverment. However, if you criticize George Bush, our method of fighting terrorism, or shortcomings in our treatment of the poor, somehow you are unpatriotic.

When I argue with a liberal, he may not really listen to me, and he may have an annoying assumption that he automatically holds the moral high ground, but I have never heard that my disagreement amounted to turning on our country. However, when I tell a conservative that our actions in Iraq were unwise or that we can afford better health care for low income children, all of a sudden my patriotism is questioned.

What conservatives take issue with is inaction. You may feel that George Bush has taken the wrong steps, but steps he has taken. Liberal dissention is abundant, but Liberal alternatives are few and far between, and when they finally achieve office, rarely acted upon. Conservative opinion is that taxing people and plugging holes with the proceeds is not economically sound, and they act on it.

Let's not forget that there is a good balance of Democrats and Republicans in Congress where the real changes are made, and few changes occur. Instead of taking the President to task for not "fixing" things, why not ask your Democratic congressmen why they aren't acting on your values? They make legislation, not the President.

What conservatives take issue with is inaction.

No, that is an entirely different argument. I find it hard to believe that you are unfamiliar with conservatives' questioning of liberals' patriotism, particularly in matters of national security.

I am not debating the merits of liberal and conservative arguments, but rather calling conservatives on their rather hypocrical habit of labeling opposing views as unpatriotic.

I know what you mean. It's one thing to hate America or to think it's the worst country in the world, but people shouldn't be called unpatriotic when they just want to do what they feel will make the country better.

"No, that is an entirely different argument. I find it hard to believe that you are unfamiliar with conservatives' questioning of liberals' patriotism, particularly in matters of national security."

No, actually that is exactly what I am talking about. Inaction, particularly in matters of national security. They demand actions be taken, and then use those actions to create a 'civil rights' platform to further themselves politically. This goes even beyond inaction. If they are fighting this hard to stop any effort to increase national security after 9/11, do you think for an instant much could have been done before it? What if George Bush had tried to enact this kind of draconian airport safety before 9/11? How would it have been met by Liberals?

The reason many of them are being called unpatriotic is because 99% of their complaints about national security, the war on terrorism, and the Patriot act are not in the national interest, but jabs made solely for politcal effect. I'm sorry, but derailing national security efforts in the interests of a political campaign is unpatriotic.

I don't think the majority of people think that those who have an opinion contrary to the current administrations are "unpatriotic". They think that those who seem to want to see our country fail in what its doing are "unpatriotic". I tend to agree with this. We all have different opinions, and that is fine, but just because we have different opinions shouldn't mean we wish something bad to happen to our country just so that it hurts the reputation of the man in office. I guess it boils down to, you can support our country even if you don't agree with the person running it, or, even if you don't agree with the person running our country, you should stil support the country as a whole.

"Why do I complain? Because I don't like the way things are going. Why do I stay? Because I love my country...and it could be better." ----Someone beside me said that. haha

Trinitie

You are correct that hospitals can't put liens, I was actually mixing my rants, one about loan payments and the other about high hospital costs. My apologies.

Cheers

I take the same view with America- learn its roots, don't forget its beginnings, and try to appreciate the way it currently stands.

I love my country and can never forget it's roots. And in loving my country, I will continue to raise my voice to things I consider wrong, I will continue to write my representatives and vote as my conscience dictates. I will open up centers and I will write articles. In the seventies America, love it or leave it, became quite a slogan. So far it has been twice implied to me that I should leave my country because I write about the poverty I see here.
Soldier Blue
by Sainte Marie Buffy

I’ll tell you a story and it’s a true one
and I’ll tell it like you understand
And I ain’t gonna talk like some history maid.

I look out and I see a land.
Young and lovely. Hard and strong
For fifty thousand years we’ve danced her praises.
Prayed our thanks and we’ve just begun. Yes, Yes

Yes this is my country.
Young and growing.
Free and flowing. Sea to sea.
Yes, this is my country.
Ripe and bearing miracles
in every pond and tree.
Her spirit walks the high country.
She’s giving free wild samples.
And setting an example how to give.

Yes this is my country
Retching and turning
She is like a baby learning how to live
i can stand upon a hill at dawn
Look all around me.
Feel her surround me.
Soldier blue
Can’t you see her life has just begun
Beating inside us. Telling us she’s here to guide us.

Soldier blue, Soldier blue, Soldier blue.
Can’t you see that there’s another way to love her.

This is my country
And I sprang from her
And I’m learning how to count upon her.
Tall trees and the corn is high country.
I guess I love her.
And I’m learning how to take care of her

When the news stories get me down
I take a drink of freedom to think of
North America from toe to crown
It's never long before
I know just why I belong here

Soldier Blue, Soldier Blue
Can't you see that there's another way to love her

The reason many of them are being called unpatriotic is because 99% of their complaints about national security, the war on terrorism, and the Patriot act are not in the national interest, but jabs made solely for politcal effect. I'm sorry, but derailing national security efforts in the interests of a political campaign is unpatriotic.

I think you just became an exhibit for my case. Liberals have many faults, but I have never had one tell me that I was unpatriotic simply because I disagreed with them. Conservatives tend to be so sure that they are right that disagreement is simply anti-American.

Don Bemont : Did I say that they are unpatriotic for disagreeing? No. I said "derailing national security efforts in the interests of a political campaign is unpatriotic". Today, I watched Tom Daschle announce what he considered to be "dire" economic numbers with a smile on his face. The spirit of the moment was that of celebration. That isn't concern, that is maximizing on other people's pain, with a smile, glad you have some dirt to throw before November.

An exhibit I may be, but frankly Democrats at every step since 9/11 have been the brakes. Now, even while they are harping about why nothing was done previous to 9/11, they constantly politicize every step to prevent it from happening again. Do they offer alternatives? No, they just differ. I don't think it is based upon philosophical differences, any more than I think Daschle's press conference today was about concern for the American public. They are simply wanting to profit politically from tragedy, and I find that to be unpatriotic.

I believe their problem is with the gradual eroding of our civil liberties.

Cheers

" I believe their problem is with the gradual eroding of our civil liberties."

Then the best thing to do would be to show us how post 9/11 security can be accomplished without eroding civil liberties. Then, they would accomplish something other than angry finger-pointing in front of TV cameras. As it stands it is win/win for them politically just to sit back and criticize. Unpatriotic, yeah, when it endangers the nation and is done for political gain.

BakerStreet: Sorry if I was too flip with my answer.

However, I think you are on dangerous ground when you find opposition to be suspect in the area of patriotism because it is political. That is how our goverment system should work. When a segment of the population believes something, someone will try to get elected by espousing that point of view. Win or lose, the public has spoken. To call a point of view unpatriotic because it is political is, at its core, a belief that no one should be allowed to represent that point of view within our democratic system. As to the sincerity of a particular spokesperson, that is the concern of the group that is looking for a representative. (I tend to think President Bush is pretty sly in his dealings with the religious right, but that is the business of the religious right, and not for me to judge.)

As I see it, there was nothing unpatriotic about Republican opposition to President Clinton's actions in Kosovo, even though their opposition was clearly political in nature. And there is nothing unpatiriotic about Democratic opposition to the actions of President Bush.