Liberals: You're Killing Yourselves

from JoeUser Forums

It's getting frustrating.

As a Libertarian, I am always on the lookout for good talking points from the left and right. Both sides have plenty of room for criticism, and there are a lot of good talking points to be had.

But see, as so many have lamented, GOOD liberal talking points are in short supply around the internet. Most of the more intelligent liberals are more moderate than liberal, or focus their blogs on other topics. The few truly intelligent, truly dedicated liberals that remain spend far too little time blogging here, in my opinion. And there ARE some points to be made by liberals.

What we are left with all too often is ad hominem attacks and/or completely unsubstantiated rhetoric. Unfortunately, too many of the leftists we DO find on the sight are so narrow in focus that they simply don't contribute enough to a broad range of topics to be consistently interesting.

A look out over the blogosphere seems to offer little hope as well. All but the most hardened liberal would not want to be represented by the views of the Democratic Underground.

To the good liberal writers on JU (you know who you are): please, give us some more material. To the "one trick ponies": Please, broaden your choice of topics. And to the silent majority of libs: Please, don't be afraid to speak. We may disagree, but I, for one, would like to hear your voices more often.

There's a potential for this to be a truly great blog community, but as long as one view is predominantly expressed over the others, the content is lacking. I know there are some great liberal writers with content to contribute, I'd just like to see more of them.

politics
15,331 views 56 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
I consider myself an intelligent liberal, but half the time I find it too frustrating to try and counter "talking points" when issued by hard-boiled conservatives. The problem? I blame the death of American logic; the debates I see on television, and those I engage in personally, fall immediately into logical fallacies, rhetoric, namecalling, or diversionary tactics. When Bill O'Reilly is confronted by a well-spoken argument by an informed debater, he hangs up--and it seems most conservatives emulate that pattern in whatever way is accessible. They stop listening, they namecall, or they shrug off the argument entirely as "biased" or "fabricated."

The difficulty is that liberals, and liberal arguments, are not respected by conservatives. As soon as they find an opportunity, a skilled rhetorician labels us "liberal" (or, recently, "secular," or "progressive") and in their mind, any point we may have made is invalidated. Yes, it's characterizing the speaker, but logic doesn't seem to matter in America any more. One viewing of a political debate will tell you that.

So I guess what I'm saying is, we're out here, but I feel like we've exhausted our audience, and there's little motivation to come up with more talking points. Most of us stay quiet, speaking up every now and then to react to a statement we just can't stomach, but we're too brow-beaten to do anything else.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
"The difficulty is that liberals, and liberal arguments, are not respected by conservatives."


Uh, "duh" is not an argument. "Rich people are bad and giving money to the poor is good" isn't an argument. That's basically all we see here; just a bunch of "It's the (whatever), stupid" statements.

The idea that liberals have exhausted their audience is a joke. They've offended their audience, and villified them to the point that people don't want to hear it any more. I get sick and tired of people who condemn others for being "black and white", but who thrive on a Robin Hood, Peace-at-all-costs, Rights above all things attitude and offer nothing but their opinion to back it up.

Their reasons most often given? "Duh" about sums it up. You either agree or you are stupid or evil. War is bad, abortion is a right, the poor should be given money, blah, blah, blah. After 40 years of modern liberalism they don't have a single bit more logical basis for those judgements than they ever did. Sorry, that isn't "American logic", or logic of any kind.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
As a conservative (whose debating skills leave much to be desired), I must say that I agree with you, Gid. All we seem to get around here are the flamers; points-whoring libs with no room in their rhetoric/"ideals" to give ground.
I, as a conservative, find certain truths to be self-evident; liberals are destroying our culture and civilization. But at the same time, I understand that for that culture and civilization to work properly, we need both sides of the spectrum, which is something that the "hard-boiled" liberals don't, or perhaps won't, get. They hate us, and our views.

I recently got involved in a rather heated discussion with one of the farther-left lefties on here, and I admit that they presented their case pretty well. I was forced to concede certain things. But then, I was willing to do so. This person was not. My opinion was just idiotic and totally ridiculous, see; theirs was not.

While both sides tend to regard the opinions of their opposites with derision or suspicion, I have to say that conservatives do often seem the most willing of the two sides to debate with reason, flexibility and fairness.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

So I guess what I'm saying is, we're out here, but I feel like we've exhausted our audience, and there's little motivation to come up with more talking points. Most of us stay quiet, speaking up every now and then to react to a statement we just can't stomach, but we're too brow-beaten to do anything else.

Perhaps you should join JU.  It is free.  And while some may do that to you, I think you will find a lot of respect from the other side of the aisle.  We are not Bill O'reilly.  But it would be good to debate you, on an intelectual level.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Point made. *rolling eyes and scurrying back to my liberal corner*"


Yup, that sums it up neatly...
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

Point made. *rolling eyes and scurrying back to my liberal corner*

You are many things, but liberal?  As liberal as I am perhaps!  come out of that corner!

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
" Baker: You said liberals don't argue because they can't, because all they can do is stutter and drool and utter meaningless insults. But by saying such a silly thing, you debase yourself. Be real. Think about it. "


Did I? Where exactly did I say that? Please, highlight the passage that says that, quote me. Unless you are a liar and making things up off the top of your head.

I have had the word "duh" spit at me by dabe and others over and over. Bush is an idiot. Anyone who votes for him is an idiot. Most conservatives are uneducated, most conservatives believe Hussein was behind 9-11, over and over and over. Are you actually trying to say that Liberals don't try and portray Conservatives as being less intelligent or less moral? We just want to make the rich richer and starve the poor, remember?

You can't sit here at JU for more than a month without someone trying to say that Conservatives are statistically less intelligent than Liberals. You can't sit here more than an hour or two before a Liberal portrays conservatism as something intended to do nothing but profit the rich. In all those circumstances how often do you see them offer any real argument to back that up?

"It's the economy, stupid" has pretty much been ported to every argument Liberal America makes. Characterizing an opposing opinion as stupid doesn't make your point.

So, for all your venom, you have basically done what I accused people of. You're right why? Because you say so. Because I am wrong, basically. You didn't make an argument, you just accused me of something I didn't say, and then stated a great "truth" you have no basis for.

Again, that about sums it up.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
F*ck you, frankly xtine. You just made a nasty accusation about me, saying I said something I didn't. Back your sh*t up or by God admit that you are a liar. I never said anything you accused me of saying.

"Baker: You said liberals don't argue because they can't, because all they can do is stutter and drool and utter meaningless insults. But by saying such a silly thing, you debase yourself. "


Now you want to stick your nose in the air and back out of it as if you don't NEED to back your accusation up? Did I say that, or am I just too ignorant to understand myself now? How's that for proving my point?

I would refer the poster of reply #1 to this exchange as proof of my point. xtine doesn't need to tell my why I am wrong, hell, or even accurately state what I said. When challenged, xtine is right by default, and struts away as champion without even needing to prove the mischaracterization of what I said.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Did I? Where exactly did I say that?
---Baker

I didn't see it, either. (eyes xtine suspiciously....one eyebrow raised)

I'm not a debater....never have been; I have my opinions, though. My opinions are ones that are based on the fact that they worked in this country for almost 300 years and we succeeded pretty damn well for having them.
In the last 40 years, we've let the Left take charge of our culture, educational system and let their opinions hold sway in much of the government.

What has come of it?

A rise in drug use, immorality, teen pregnancy and violence, and a drop in American scholarship.

I think my opinions are pretty sound, overall.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
You proved my point in grand fashion. You didn't take me to task for what I said, you mischaracterized it, used it to make me "debased", and declared yourself right by default. That's what we get constantly here.

I challenge people to make their points. Instead, I get "truth", war is bad, abortion is a woman's choice, the poor should get free money because they are poor, etc. Why? Because that is "right".

It's no different than arguing with the fundamentalist Christians that Liberals so often villify. At least they have a book they can blame. Some Liberals seem to make their values up off the top of their heads or get them from Disney movies.

There are people of Liberal bent here that can make points. I link to some of them on my blog, and we rarely agree, but they can actually back up what they say with more than "duh". For the most part, though, Liberals just "know" what is right, and that's all they need. That's no better than any other subjective belief.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
xtine: I don't want an apology. You took what was a well-considered argument and portrayed it as me calling Liberals stupid. Conveniently, once you twisted it into something wrong, you could just declare it wrong and not bother with all that sticky debate stuff.

You declared me "debased", and therefore your perspective wasn't by default. Just like when I am a "greedy conservative" or a "hypocritical Christian" or a "stupid Republican". I'm not saying you have said those particular things, but it is an extension of the tactic of just waving off someone's opinion as lesser by default.

Again, thanks very much for the example. I couldn't have scripted a better one.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
P.S. and I'd add that anyone who thinks I was overly harsh, go back and read #8, #9, and #10. Not only did I offer xtine the chance to quote where I said that, I took the time to reiterate what I meant; again, posing the issue as I saw it. The response?

" Ah, what to do? COntinue a meaningless debate or just let you be right, as you desperately seem to want to be.

Ok...you're right.

Carry on."


That's my exact point. It doesn't matter if I made a point, and it doesn't matter that xtine didn't bother to acknowledge or refute it. Why should xtine have to? Xtine simply decides to strut away "allowing" me to be right, all the while implying that I am somehow unreachable by his logic, or at least that there's no hope in debating it with me.

It's that smug garbage that has poisoned the audience for Liberal ideals. I got annoyed, sure, but when someone accuses you of something, dismisses your argument, and then just says 'whatever' and walks off, it IS annoying. My perspective has been twisted and ignored. I'm wrong by default.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
xtine has extended the perspective to a blog aptly entitled I don't value your opinion. Deal.. The point there seems to be that none of this matters because it is the Internet, and " It's easier to get bent over stupid crap than it is to face the heavy issues. "

Again, any point you don't refute is "stupid crap" not worth acknowledging. More arrogant 'tude that proves the point of this article, imho.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Baker, please keep it out of the forums now, the only rules we have to play by now are the TOS.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why, because you say so? You provided an example of what I am talking about on another blog. I have the right to link it. If you didn't want to extend the conversation I wonder why you ran off to blog about it. So far, it all seems pretty on-topic to me.

If I am misunderstanding you, feel free to reiterate. Otherwise it looks like you just think I am too mean or stupid to get it, and it isn't worth your time. That was kind of my point above.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
BakerStreet: Have you been feeling ok lately?
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Huh?

xtine accused me of calling Liberals stupid, then when challenged brushed the whole thing off and "allowed" me to be right, then went off and wrote a specific whine blog about it, and now is telling me that I can't talk about it on the forums...

...and you're claiming the problem is me? Have YOU been feeling well lately?
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
BakerStreet: No, no, I'm not talking about this dispute specifically. You just seem to be more easily worked up and aggressive lately, and I'm wondering if everything is ok with you.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
If so, it is because of the topic of this blog, Tex. I can point out several discussions in the last month or two where I have been treated like this. Hell, xtine is now going through and deleting the posts in question...

Nothing makes me madder than someone mischaracterizing what I say and dismissing me based upon someting I didn't say or mean. When I take the time to reiterate my opinon for them over and over and all they want to do is turn it into something easy for them to brush off, yeah.

(P.S. I'm not starting anything with you, but yes, that is exactly what I felt that you and dharma were doing to me in our recent unpleasantness. So, if you see similarities in my behavior here and there, it isn't anything that is going on with me, it is how i react when people do this kind of thing.)
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Bakerstreet's writing has been particularly good lately.  I wish I had his skill.

I am frustrated with the left lately myself. I don't think it's a good thing for one ideology to dominate -- look at how quickly congress is getting corrupt thanks to one-party rule?

In the old days, the right had the Christian right who were incredibly obnoxious with their holier-than-thou attitude.  But now we have the far left whose philosophy can be summarized as follows:

"My ideology is based on enlightenment.  The ideology of those who disagree with me is based on ignorance and hate."  Everything else tends to flow from there.  Virtually every left-of-center person I know of argues with a sort of smug superiority that often leaves no room for disagreement.  You either agree with them and join the enlightenment club or you disagree and expose yourself as a hateful or ignorant or guilty of some other base motivation. 

Disagreeing with a liberal doesn't just make you wrong and unenlightened, it makes you a bad person.  And hence debates almost always have that feeling of someone who is convinced of their intellectual superiority arguing with someone who's jus a little slow, a little unsophisticated, or a little uncompassionate.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm not starting anything with you, but yes, that is exactly what I felt that you and dharma were doing to me in our recent unpleasantness.


I didn't think that you and I HAD any unpleasantness to speak of, although I do know that you and dharma had a scuffle. You just seem more...emotional... of late, taking things personally whereas you wouldn't have not so long ago. It's just an observation, and if you feel I'm way off, that's cool. I'm not trying to be a jerk to you. I was just trying to express care, not call you out or anything.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't want to call you out either, but it was something to me. It's not every day a soldier feels the need to publicly remind me that he and other soldiers aren't cannon fodder. I had a hard time dealing with the fact that someone could read what I write and think I felt that way.

It was hideously embarassing not because I was ashamed of what I said, but because someone had taken my words and translated them into something that ugly and ignorant. Exactly what xtine did above. Maybe I am touchy, but honestly I think these two circumstances would have provoked the same no matter what mood I was in or what was going on. Maybe you are right though, the unexamined life is not worth living. I'll examine.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good article. If you do not mind, I want to add one or two more sentences. I agree that in JU there are few good liberal writers. But I think some articles in JU are hostile (not this one) and that scared some good liberal writers and some begineer writers that are willing to learn.

I consider myself liberal on certain issues. And I feel that several articles tend to blame liberals just because they are liberals. The writer might not intend to express his/her opinion that way and maybe there is no a single word that explicitly said that. But the entire mood of the article seem to convey a hostile message. I find it unfruitful to engage a discussion with hostile individuals because it wouldn't be an open discussion.

Just a suggestion, maybe if the rhethoric and name-calling could be toned down, more good writers (both liberal/conservative) would be interested.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
J: Not saying you'd be that way, at all, but from my point of view Conservatives have a lot easier time dealing with people who oppose them. Some Liberals seem to think that it isn't respectful to ask them to back their perspective up at all.

This isn't a circumstance where someone could be physically intimidated into shutting up. Your words are there to stand on their own. I don't seem how the tone of anyone who opposes you could effect the quality of your argument.

I think that a lot of people of Liberal bent deem ANY opposition to be violent and belligerent. All you need to really do is disagree with them to spoil and "open discussion", like the folks over at DU who won't even allow a Republican perspective.

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
In the old days, the right had the Christian right who were incredibly obnoxious with their holier-than-thou attitude.
I hadn't noticed their exodus. It is fair to equate extreme left with the obnoxious extreme right; however, you leave us with the impression that there many more of the arrogant and "enlightened" academicians among the left than the holier than thou, benevolent captains of industry of the right.