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Giving soldiers the respect they deserve

Giving soldiers the respect they deserve

The saga

There's been a very stimulating series of articles written by JoeUser bloggers with regards to the opinions of civilians on the sidelines making claims about what the military should and shouldn't do.  I missed some of the first ones (particularly a great one by Texas Wahine) so here's the series so far:

We need to help those Iraqis! (a civilian frustrated with those who oppose the war)

If you love war so much, why not go fight it? (frustration with non-serving civilians who seem to glorify war)

Why aren't you fighting in Iraq? (Bakerstreet responds to the above)

I dont' have to serve to support (same)

Are you a pasty pile of goo? (are people being overly defensive?)

One-Upmanship on JoeUser (whose opinions matter more?)

As a professional jerk, I'm a lot less sensitive to the feelings of soldiers or pro-military or anti-military people.  Simply put, I support the war. I support the job the military is doing. The job. Our soldiers are doing a job. I don't really care whether they like the job or not any more than I care whether individual policemen or firemen like the job they're doing. I only care that they do their job. 

That said, I can totally sympathize with soldiers and their families who see arm-chair generals, comfy at home, who treat warfare as little more than a sport for their amusement. I have seen this attitude in many pro-war people, a total disconnect from the hellish, dangerous, and staggeringly difficult times our soldiers face.  I can totally get what they're saying.  But I don't want to be lumped into that.  I haven't served in the military. I probably never will.  But I feel I do have an appreciation for the job our soldiers are doing even if I cannot even imagine what they've gone through.  Therefore, I make no bones that I support the job they've done.

Then again, being a jerk, I don't have any particular sympathy for the Iraqis. I would support bringing troops home IF there was the understanding that if Iraq fell into terrorist hands we would go in there and overthrow what they'd cobbled together.  Winning against terrorism doesn't mean we have to set up some sort of peaceful democratic state. Not in my opinion anyway. There's any number of countries that are in states of near anarchy.  What we have to work against are states with significant financial and material assets who support terrorism or who allow terrorists to openly organize and plan.  Hence, while I agree us leaving Iraq would likely result in a non-democratic government run by Shiites who oppressed minorities or even lead to civil war, I don't really care. I'd rather have our soldiers home.  IF that oppressive government started to support anti-US policies, pursue WMDs, sponsor terrorists, then we could go in again and take them out.

Of course, many of you reading what I just wrote probably are shaking your head at my naivete. Because you're right.  The US cannot (contrary to what some left-wing fringe Europeans think) just send the military in on a whim to overthrow countries we didn't like. Not until I'm emperor anyway. ;)   Therefore, the most balanced course of action is probably to stay until there's enough infrastructure in place that Iraq can move forward on its own and draw down troops gradually as they can.

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Reply #51 Top
You're the one that likened patriotism to wanting to go to war, dharma. I've not put words into your mouth any of the time you've been accusing me of it. If you are vague and not meaning what you say, that isn't my fault. When someon throws up their hands as if to say "Don't you dare accuse my husband of patriotism", one gets the idea that you don't think much of the concept. When you say:

""I'm simply saying that to tar every single service member with a patriotic brush is an error. Some people, like my husband and Sergeant Neale, go to war because that's part of their job, not because they want to. "


It seems pretty obvious that you are comparing patriotism to warmongering. I have a feeling every patriot who ever lived would have rather been at home with their wives than at war. The fact that they keep their commitment and serve their country anyway is what makes them patriots. Could it be, waaaay back in the back of your mind, that you might resent it if someone deemed another obligation greater than that of home and family?

Harsh question? Maybe, but you don't usually react so close-mindedly to ideas like this. For some reason, you seem dead set on equating granting soldiers 'patriotism' or 'idealism' to glorifying war. When I read what you say about how you'd deal with anti-war protesters on other blogs, the two sides of you just don't seem to jive.


"I think it's cute how you try to put words in people's mouths. I've never said, nor implied such things. All I said was that it is not true that a woman would be stoned to death for wearing jeans when Saddam was in power."


davad, you were the one looking fondly back to the hussein days as if women wearing jeans was some big friggin point. YOU WERE THE ONE trying to make the point that democracy was somehow failed because women couldn't wear jeans.

What other choice does one have but to think you only value democracy when the people make the same values choices that you do.
Reply #52 Top
davad, you were the one looking fondly back to the hussein days as if women wearing jeans was some big friggin point. YOU WERE THE ONE trying to make the point that democracy was somehow failed because women couldn't wear jeans.

What other choice does one have but to think you only value democracy when the people make the same values choices that you do.


You're mistaken. That was Rombios, not me.
Reply #53 Top
...and when someone opposed him, you offered to back up the assertion. Safe bet, though, say little, account for little. *gives davad some syrup for his waffle*

If in fact you weren't interested in backing his point, and just wanted to differ with Doc, I'd suggest being more clear in the future. When peabrains come in and start saying "F*ck soldiers, they're murderers" and such, you might want to be speficic as to what parts of their ethos you are offering credence to.
Reply #54 Top
Well evidently Para and I feel alike:

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. You will meet them doing various things with resolve, but their interest rarely holds because after the other thing ordinary life is as flat as the taste of wine when the taste buds have been burned off your tongue."

The comment about F&^K the troops, well thats what this comment is about. You have no idea about what you are talking about. I know those that know me know I almost never resort to this but ... go F&*K yourself.
Reply #55 Top
When peabrains come in and start saying "F*ck soldiers, they're murderers" and such, you might want to be speficic as to what parts of their ethos you are offering credence to.


Actually it's fairly well known that women were allowed to wear jeans in Iraq before the removal of Saddam. Obviously devout muslim women would not wear jeans before or after Saddam. But to suggest that any woman caught wearing jeans would be stoned is pretty ridiculous. Before you accuse people of stating absolute lies you should do a little research.


That's what my post was, I was very specific. I would explain myself more thoroughly, but you're a smart guy who just happened to be mistaken is this particular case. Therefore, I won't get shitty and be a smartass with you as you have done to me. Thanks for the syrup though.
Reply #56 Top
mmm, well if you thought the conversation was really about 'jeans' and not the values judgement of pre/post war Iraq, I guess that makes sense. I don't think rombios is all that concerned with Iraqi fashion, though I suppose I could have misunderstood the entire conversation...
Reply #57 Top
I suppose I could have misunderstood the entire conversation...


the difference between saddam's secular baathist dictatorship and a conservative islamic theocratic patriarchal dictatorship--like the taliban's afghanistan--is one makes women suffer even more than the other.
Reply #58 Top
. I read what you wrote earlier, and I think it was a smart choice to let someone with more sense and better writing ability speak for you instead of spouting the error-riddled, condescending crap that you initially posted.


remind me not to piss you off.
Reply #59 Top
Giving our troops the respect they deserve is giving them the support they need to complete the job we sent them there to do.

Whether it's our best wishes, prayers, care packages, moral support, letters, or even encouragement in blog articles only a few of them will read, in whatever way (small or great) we can, we need to support them all we can.
Reply #60 Top
As with discussions of American politics, people tend to confuse a democratic system where people decide what their government will be, and "islamic theocratic patriarchal dictatorship" where they don't. I would have SWORN I saw women voting in the last Iraqi election.

No one has yet answered whether this heinous anti-jeans policy is governmental, constitutional, or what. I have a feeling people are just more able to express their RELIGIOUS PERSONA now, which, granted, to some in all parts of the world is a threat.
Reply #61 Top
No one has yet answered whether this heinous anti-jeans policy is governmental, constitutional, or what. I have a feeling people are just more able to express their RELIGIOUS PERSONA now, which, granted, to some in all parts of the world is a threat


it's not anti-jeans that's bothersome; rather it's pro-veil, complete with the sorta morals police goonsquads common in iran, pakistan and the saudi kingdom. it's constitutional because the draft constitution provides only those rights to women which do not violate sharia. the one thing on which sunni and shiia agree is the unfairness of having to reserve to women a specific number of seats in the national assembly
Reply #62 Top
never saw one woman in jeans.. or pants even... just Burkhas and veils.
Perhaps, but in Baghdad they did at least wear modern clothing.
Reply #63 Top
I sense a general pattern here:
we talk about the loss of rights for individuals and women in Iraqs U.S
sanctioned "constitution" and these rightwing freaks boil it down to jeans?

amazing ...

pior to that
we spoke about chemical weapons and white phosphorus use, these knuckle
draggers boil try and make light of it ... and start citing so called papers
indicating (in their minds) thats its not banned. the damage done is not the
issue ... its all about how we can spin it to appear morally right.

next we will discuss how we are now PLANTING stories and paying off iraqi
newspapers to plant favorable stories against the rebellion and Saddam.

knuckle draggers will be concerned about the effect on our image, and not
the fact that we have dug YET another hole in our quest to bring corporatocracy to the middle east.

It just never ends.

On another note, I may have opened the eyes of a so called "conservative"
yesterday.

In a heated argument this individual was having with others ... he pulled
me in with "hey ... ask anybody ... ask that guy right there ... if it
werent for us ... iraqi's wouldnt be able to vote right now"

BAD MISTAKE calling me in like that.

I replied "no YOU are DEAD wrong. Paul Bremer's original (and by extention
OUR plan ... since he is there to implement U.S policy) was to choose
Iraq's leader by a carefully arranged regional caucaus. The parliament and
Prime Minister positions would have been CAREFULLY chosen and people
bought off ... a plan which would have seen Ahmed Chalabi at the reigns of
power or that idiot Ayad Allawi there forever"

I continued
"Ayatollah Sustani rejected ... when Paul Bremer tried to sideline and
ignore him ... he called 300k men into the streets of najaf and basra ...
Paul Bremer wilted .. knowing full well what would happen next."

Further proof that we really never cared about these people. THere were
rife repports of local commanders getting upset and aggravated when
votes were cancelled for local official positions becuase Bremer didnt like
the person chosen.

This person just stood there with his mouth open and the rest of us just
laughed at him. After a while I stopped ... for I really felt PITY for this
guy. Its not his fault I guess ... when all is said and considered.

One at a time I guess. Now almost 60% know this was a LIE ...
slowly but surely
Reply #64 Top
Just a thought, but what if the majority of voters (men and women) choose to have pro veil and burkha laws? The whole point of helping them establish a democratic form of government is for THEM to decide what that means... not us.
Reply #65 Top
rombios -

You're right - it is so tiresome educating the unwashed. Your burden is great, indeed.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #66 Top
rombios -

You're right - it is so tiresome educating the unwashed. Your burden is great, indeed.

Cheers,
Daiwa


BEST POST ON THIS TRHEAD SO FAR!