When influence peddling get a person who disobeyed his military orders a Honorable Discharge, I think that goes Too far. When that person becomes President of the United States, I know it goes Too far!

Okay, this is bad? But Kerry getting a pass on treason isn't?

There is a BIG difference between a Senator and President of the United States. Nothing about the fact that Bush disobeyed orders and did not deserve an Honorable discharge has changed. If Bush had received what his service deserved, he would NOT be President! Most likely not even a Senator!

And no there is NO difference between a senator doing it or the president. Influence pedaling is still pedaling, no matter who's doing it.

No that is not ALL I HAVE..

We have a failed policy in Iraq, we have a failed trade policy, we have a failed fiscal policy, we have most of the world aginst the U S, we have failed the needs of millions of Americans, we do not protect our borders and EVERY one of these failures are because of Bush and the policieas the he and the conservatives in Congress passed. Had Bush reveived the punishmernt for disobaying orders while he was in the military he would not have been president and America would be a lot better today.

Sarcasm in place of thoughtful rebuttal

Thoughtful rebuttal is completely wasted on Gene, UBoB. He's not interested in it, either. You're a bit late to the party.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Interesting how all this time you sounded like someone around the age of 20, you know between almost sounding smart but still having the teen years drag you down. You are an older person that I figured but you sound childish sometimes.

My point exactly. There is something not genuine about MR. Gene. I don't believe for a minute he was ever a Col in anything but his imagination.

Nothing any of you have said changes those facts about the service of Bush.

We went through this earlier this year or late last year. You ignored all the facts then about Bush had SUTA his drills earlier in the year, and the "Commander Discretion" statements in the Regulations then (something I am sure as a commander you used). Why even dig all that up again when you will ignore it again. You'll just wait until you think everybody who debunked your claim are gone, or just tired of beating down the same old rhetoric, then post it AGAIN.

It was NOT up to him to miss drills, or to not participate in the exercise his unit was in

It is if his SUTA had the OK from his commander, by SUTAing those drills and conducted home stations Annual training on an earlier date. (i.e. Commander's discretion) The commander’s approval of his SUTA is the fact that commanders signed the unit Payroll for the month. If Lt. Bush did not have approval for his SUTA then the commander would not have signed the thing and had the admin NCO remove Bush’s pay. Since no one has provided a real documented AWOL letter from the unit, that means there was a verbal OK from the commander (which is nothing uncommon in an Aviation unit or any Guard Unit really). Remember AWOL letters are registered letters that an Admin NCO has multiple records of to build a adverse action case and can be tracked by the US Postal Service. The Admin clerk has repeatedly stated that he does not remember ever sending letters like that to Lt. Bush.

to not take the required flight physical. Those are REQUIREMENTS that Lt Bush did not obey. For that he should not been given an Honorable Discharge.

What you also fail to point out is that when a pilot is grounded, he is only barred from promotion, schools, receiving awards and re-enlistment, not automatically subject to UCMJ or dishonorable discharge (to do so would be a Commander's discretion that was not taken). To be subject to adverse actions that you feel he should have received, requires a mountain of negative counseling statements, OERs, and other documentation of him disobeying his commander in not only one, but two States. So much documentation that the multiple Admin NCOs, Commanders, and State Admin personnel would have remembered or still had evidence on hand.

A Commander would not even consider causing adverse actions against Lt. Bush, because why waste the work on a man who met the required number of drills for the year and who was just going to ETS any way.

But of course I am sure your soldiers under your commanded as a commander really loved you for wanting to throw the max penalties on them for conducting an authorized SUTA and not conducting their physical a few months before they depart from service anyway. Makes me really want to reenlist with you.

But this is old stuff, yet AGAIN.

We have a failed policy in Iraq, we have a failed trade policy, we have a failed fiscal policy, we have most of the world aginst the U S, we have failed the needs of millions of Americans, we do not protect our borders and EVERY one of these failures are because of Bush and the policieas the he and the conservatives in Congress passed. Had Bush reveived the punishmernt for disobaying orders while he was in the military he would not have been president and America would be a lot better today.

And all this would have been better had GWB not skipped out on Guard service back in the 70's?

Ahh, so I think here we see COL Gene's motivation to continue his polemic against Bush's guard service. He's got issues regarding the man as a whole, not from some long-forgotten guard service record from the early 70's.

The former Secretary to LTC Killian had stated that she DID TYPE such a letter to Lt Bush even though the copy used by CBS was not the one she typed.

This is the most hilarious and pathetic attempt to cover up a blatant forgery that I have ever heard. Sad sad sad. If she has no proof, and she has no proof except a memory, then why mention it at all? It only makes her (and anyone repeating her statements or basing a blog string on those statements) laughable.

If a officer did today just what Bush did in 1972, they would be punished!

The Bush refusal to obey multuiple regulations does not deserve an Honorable discharge.

Having just come from active duty military service myself, I can say two things:
1. It takes a lot more than minor disciplinary action to invoke a "less-than-honorable" or "bad conduct" discharge. And Bush wasn't even called out on a minor infraction.
2. There is a stigma that accompanies anything other than an honorable discahrge from the military. Commanders and the Army as a whole do not want to give their people those sorts of discharges, so they will not continue their lives with black marks against them. I know several people in my old unit who were convicted of doing drugs. Big drugs, multiple times. Only one was booted from the Army. And his discharge? "Less than Honorable". With a waiver that it could be upgraded to Honorable after six months' good behavior, like a suspended sentence. If he got into no more trouble, he would be able to get it back to Honorable.

As far as I am concerned, a) non-issue anyway. It happened so long ago.
Bush's case is far from noteworthy, as he was never called up on disciplinary action.
c) If his superior officers had called him up on charges, and found him guilty, chances are he wouldn't have gotten a dishonorable discharge anyway.

Hey Col Gene, if thats who you really are, I recomend you read up on Little Whip's interesting article titled


The Difference between Stupidity and Disability
just some random blathering

By little_whip

Specially the definitions. It might give you a clue as to why so many people here get tired of repeating themselves to you and why you don't seem to get a clue that the ammo you chose to fight back with, in your own personal war against Bush, and nothing but duds.

There is no such approval and a commander does not have the authority to override regulations that require drill attendence or taking the flight physical.

So as a Battalion Commander, you never let a soldier SUTA a drill? In an aviation unit, pilots and flight crews SUTA about half their drills. To state that a Commander does not have the authorization drill off drill weekend and conduct an in house annual training shows how little you know about the day to day operations in a Guard unit. The commander has the authority in the regulation.

As for not taking the Flight physical a few months before his ETS (departure from service), he was barred from reenlistment and made a walking pilot. But dishonorably discharging a man or throwing the UCMJ on him would have been out of line and easily overturned by the State IG (Inspector General) as over stepping the document trail.

The Bush request to be transferred to that AL unit was disapproved.

OK, he didn't transfer to AL. So? The Commander in Texas decided not to allow an interstate transfer. But he still allowed him to conduct his drill in AL. Proof of authorization is that the Commander signed Lt Bush's payroll.

The order that Bush received from his commander LTC Killian was ignored by Bush.

Can you provide a link to a copy of such orders? (other then the forged ones)

The former Secretary to LTC Killian had stated that she DID TYPE such a letter to Lt Bush even though the copy used by CBS was not the one she typed.

Wing Commander Secretaries don't type such orders, the Admin NCO for his squadron does. That would be like a Brigade Commander's secretary doing a Company clerk's job. While the people who really record such actions (i.e. the unit Admin NCO and State J-1/Personnel section), state no such orders was ever typed.

If a officer did today just what Bush did in 1972, they would be punished!

LOL.... I already told you what would happen, but you just ignore it, yet AGAIN.

2 military persons with opposite ideas of how the military works,... but who's telling the truth? Find out on tomorrow's episode of "To Tell You The Truth". Same JU time, same JU channel.

The Bush militarey records document he did not attend drills ANYWARE for 5 months.

Again it don't matter if he did not attend drill for six months. He did all his SUTA (drill days) and annual training ahead of time, with the authorization from his commander. It is all in his pay documents (you know the one you only want to cherry pick the later months, but ignore the earlier months of the year with excessive duty days). You really don’t think a person would spending 25 days working beyond the normal drill weekends at a Guard unit without a reason. He was paid under an IDT status (regular drill pay), not a RMA (extra duty pay) or ADSW (active) status. If he did not have authorization to drill ahead of time or in the doghouse with the commander (as you claim) he would never had been paid in any status, by his commander.

There is a required investigation whenever a pilot is grounded for not taking a physical.

There is no required investigation when a pilot is grounded, they are just barred from reenlistment. Stop pulling requirements out of thin air. I guess you have been telling yourself this so long, you actually believe it.

Diasobaying your commanding officer is a VERY serious offense and Bush should not have been granted a Honorable Discharge.

Please provide the order from the commander. Please no forged documents AGAIN.

I posted this on another thread but I will repost it here because I think it is valid.

There is a difference between inflammatory remarks and truth. A person can be outraged over either truth or a misperception. I think COL Gene's accusations are not grounded in fact. They are the hyperbolic assertions of a flame-tard who loves to stir things up. He obviously wants to get his agenda across to others, regardless of the tactics used or accuracy of his cited "facts".

He's lying because the memos in question are not valid. They were typed up in Microsoft Word, for crying out loud! Blatant misrepresentations.

Now if you say that the memos themselves were fake but the sentiments behind them were valid, then I would say to you: PROVE IT. 'Cause those got thrown out of the court of public opinion (and common sense) long long ago.

"Memo-gate" is an example of the depths to which one will stoop to discredit a popular and powerful person. It is a well-known tactic of the losing side (whichever one that is) to continue to throw poo against the wall. Eventually they hope some of it will stick.