Detroit (automakers) never learn...

GM and Ford see declines in sales

Yet again we see that Detroit just can't seem to learn -- or at least Ford and GM can't seem to learn.

Reports out today say that GM, and Ford posted big drops in sales in September. Even with the continuation of their popular (over the summer) 'employee pricing' plans, their sales were down significantly in September. As the following article snippet's point out, mostly because GM and Ford basically stole sales from the fall back in the summer, and then were left to face the music as the new year rolled around, and as increases in gas prices continued to seriously depress sales of SUVs, big trucks and other large vehicles, in favor of smaller, more efficient cars with good reputations (from companies like Toyota and Honda).

It seems from these article snippets below that we are seeing again that Detroit's automakers never seem to learn. When we should have been investing a lot more time, effort and money into building more fuel efficient vehicles, we were instead just making them bigger, more luxurious and more expensive. Screw gas mileage. Who cares that a Ford Excursion gobbles up gas like most liberals suck up tax money? Gas was plentiful, right?

In anycase, here are a few choice notes from the news article found at the linked headline. Please see original article for complete story.





GM, Ford post lower US sales

By Poornima Gupta

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. on Monday posted big declines in U.S. vehicle sales in September as employee pricing discount programs lost their allure and sales of traditional SUVs plunged on higher gasoline prices after hurricanes ravaged the U.S. Gulf Coast.
And U.S. automakers don't see sales getting any better this month as the generous summer deals pulled fall and winter customers into the market earlier.
"I expect October to be a bit rocky," Paul Ballew, GM's head of global market and industry analysis, said, adding that industry sales on a seasonally adjusted annual basis will be around 16.4 million vehicles in September.
By contrast, Asian rivals Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. Ltd. and Nissan Motor Corp. posted double-digit gains, and Toyota said its third-quarter sales were the best-ever in the United States.
"Detroit has been trying to stimulate sales, basically pull sales from the future, by reducing prices while their competitors overseas have focused on producing better products," said Thomas Leritz, portfolio manager with Argent Capital Management in Clayton, Missouri. He doesn't own automaker stocks, but follows the industry closely.
"It's history repeating itself," he added. "You go back to the '70s, during those oil shocks the Japanese took market share."


... a bit more from the linked article...

SUV SALES HIT
...
Sales of large gas-guzzling SUVs for GM and Ford declined significantly last month as U.S. gasoline prices soared well over $3 a gallon in many parts of the country.
"There is legitimate pressure on some utility categories and I would describe those as the traditional truck-based utilities," GM's Ballew said.
SUV and truck sales at GM were off 30 percent. Sales of its large Chevrolet Suburban SUV were down nearly 57 percent.
Sales of traditional SUVs at Ford were off 51 percent compared with last September. Sales of Ford's large Expedition SUV fell 60 percent, while its mid-size Explorer was down 58 percent. Its F-Series pickup trucks were down 30 percent.
Edmunds.com's Toprak said he expected sales of large SUVs from U.S. automakers to fall further this year.



... more at linked article (please see original article for complete story)


So, as I had mentioned some time back, increasing gas prices could and most likely would (and have been) cutting sales of the gas guzzlers. I hope Detroit can figure out soon how to turn those big beasts into 40 - 60 MPG Hybrids, otherwise they are likely to continue to see their sales wilt.


7,731 views 18 replies
Reply #1 Top
The only American built hybrid to be released next year is from Saturn. I would not subject buying American auto stocks for the dividends this coming year.

My family is already planning to buy a hybrid for our next vehicle. I just hate having to buy Foreign and waiting on a list for what ever I can get. Knowing my luck I will end up with the ugly lime green car.
Reply #2 Top
The only American built hybrid to be released next year is from Saturn. I would not subject buying American auto stocks for the dividends this coming year.


Hey Lee, try again:


Link Ford Motor Company


Or:

Link General Motors
Reply #3 Top
Hey Lee, try again:


Please try again yourself Dr. Miller, the Escape, Silverado, and Sierra has already been out since fall 2004, while your own web link provided a links to my original source (thru Paul Harvey):Link

With a price tag of around $30,000 for the American modals, compared to $20,000 for the Japanese, (and a better gas mileage by about 30 mpg to boot) I don't think I will be buying one soon. Well I may consider the Saturn when released.

So please check out the sub link on your web site that I am providing. Let me point out the table on the right says when the models are available/released. Only the Saturn will be released in 2006. My original Sources are the same as yours: J.D. Power-LMC; Energy & Environmental Analysis (EEA), Inc.; manufacturer web sites. Updated 9/2/2005.

Though to be fair and with a little more research, the Mercury Mariner that was scheduled and reported to be leased late next year has been advanced to this year. Link

My first source was ultimately the same as yours. But while I said released, you seem to look at model year. But please don't expect me to do a four hour web search, to avoid a "try again" remark. I'm not in for a game of goucha, and my ears heard right when Paul Harvey used your link as reference to models released next year and the year after.
Reply #4 Top
besides offering much better fuel milage 44mpg when she drives 46 mpg when I drive, california has offered to let anyone paying an 8 dollar fee to travel in the carpool lanes alone. add a 2,000 tax write off the first year, 900 the second and 600 the third and you see why we choose a honda civic hybrid.
Reply #5 Top
Please try again yourself Dr. Miller, the Escape, Silverado, and Sierra has already been out since fall 2004, while your own web link provided a links to my original source (thru Paul Harvey):Link

With a price tag of around $30,000 for the American modals, compared to $20,000 for the Japanese, (and a better gas mileage by about 30 mpg to boot) I don't think I will be buying one soon. Well I may consider the Saturn when released.


First off you "VERY" specifically said, "The only American built hybrid to be released next year is from Saturn". I just as plainly showed you there were other "American" hybrids being released this year. One went direct to GM's site and the other to "fueleconomy.gov"! Which in all actuality has nothing to do with Paul Harvey. Also the site you're referencing has a chart showing availablity dates. Since this is fall of 2005 all models for 2006 are "already" out. The 2007 models will be available in fall of 2006 which is next year. Which the chart shows a "bunch" slated for that release. You also missed a few....what about Nissan, Lexus or Toyota? These are from your chart on your provided link. "All" are made in America.

So please check out the sub link on your web site that I am providing. Let me point out the table on the right says when the models are available/released. Only the Saturn will be released in 2006. My original Sources are the same as yours: J.D. Power-LMC; Energy & Environmental Analysis (EEA), Inc.; manufacturer web sites. Updated 9/2/2005.


Last point. You better go back and re-read the GM site. From that page you can order your "2006 hybrid Silverado"! Just because a site was last updated in 2005 (GM) does not mean that the info contained therein is out of date. And just an fyi I never said anything about price or fuel economy. And really neither did you.
Reply #6 Top
First off you "VERY" specifically said, "The only American built hybrid to be released next year is from Saturn". I just as plainly showed you there were other "American" hybrids being released this year.


I said released next year, not this year. I did not say anything about this years hybrids released from the AMERICAN auto companies, because they are all dogs (something I refer to in my second post, you know that useless info on gas mileage/price you wondered why was there).

One went direct to GM's site and the other to "fueleconomy.gov"!


The GM website even says that the Silverado hybrid was released and available already. I do not count that as a next years release, when it is driving on the road now in 2005.

Also the site you're referencing has a chart showing availablity dates. Since this is fall of 2005 all models for 2006 are "already" out. The 2007 models will be available in fall of 2006 which is next year.


Available dates and Released are the same thing. I don't care what model year they slap on vehicle, it only matters when I can buy it. The Saturn, Nissan, Lexus, and Toyota are the only ones that will be released new and first time available to the dealers in the calendar year of 2006. I never said anything about model years.

The 2007 models will be available in fall of 2006 which is next year.


The chart specifically says available in 2006, not 2007 models. Two different things. An auto company can release early (having it available in 2005) like the Mercury hybrid and then slap a 2006 model on it. But they can also slap on a 2006 model and release in the spring of 2006, just like the Lexus hybrid are.

"2006 hybrid Silverado"!


But the Silverado hybrid has been available on the dealer lots since fall 2004. That hardly counts as a 2006 release.

You also missed a few....what about Nissan, Lexus or Toyota? These are from your chart on your provided link. "All" are made in America.


We were talking about AMERICAN AUTO COMPANIES or at least that is what the article is about. I may have put “American built hybrid”, but the whole article is about built by American Companies. The last time I checked Nissan, Lexus and Toyota are not American Auto Companies. If your wanting to play goucha, then OK you win over a small misconception on some ones part, dealing with American built and American Co. built in an article on American Auto Companies, Yaaaaaaa.

Playing Goucha over a stupid release dates is silly. I have shown that the only American Car company hybrid being released to the dealers in 2006 is Saturn. If you want to continue this Goucha game, go on. I gave you my reference (which wound up to be one of your references too), even after you requested it in a snotty manner. Sometime Dr. Miller you want to pick a fight using TRY AGAIN and YOUR WRONG over the simplest things, that just make you look obnoxious, obtuse and sometime hard for me to even want to post in other articles supporting you. You blame COL Gene of doing the same thing, when half the time your acting that way too, if not worse. Cool your jets man, this is only about hybrids.
Reply #7 Top
Playing Gotcha over a stupid release dates is silly. I have shown that the only American Car company hybrid being released to the dealers in 2006 is Saturn. If you want to continue this Gotcha game, go on. I gave you my reference (which wound up to be one of your references too), even after you requested it in a snotty manner. Sometime Dr. Miller you want to pick a fight using TRY AGAIN and YOUR WRONG over the simplest things, that just make you look obnoxious, obtuse and sometime hard for me to even want to post in other articles supporting you. You blame COL Gene of doing the same thing, when half the time your acting that way too, if not worse. Cool your jets man, this is only about hybrids.


You make a blanket statement. I show you where your wrong in your assumption, but now I'm "picking" a fight?


"2006 hybrid Silverado"!


But the Silverado hybrid has been available on the dealer lots since fall 2004. That hardly counts as a 2006 release.



Hate to tell you this but, if you can buy a vehicle during a calender year that is considered a release. So in all actuality a "2006 Silverado" is a 2006 release. Now if you want to say "new" vehicle release that is an entirely different matter. And do try to use a spell checker....it's "Gotcha", not Goucha.
Reply #8 Top
Hate to tell you this but, if you can buy a vehicle during a calender year that is considered a release.


Don't play dumb, your pulling at straws here. Release means new types and models. Not just the same model with one more years slapped on it. Just stretching for a "Gotcha".

Now if you want to say "new" vehicle release that is an entirely different matter.


WOW, you finally get it.... It took you what, three post.

And do try to use a spell checker....it's "Gotcha", not Goucha.


Please when you can't get any Gotcha, lets fall back to spell check, mister spell right:

Also the site you're referencing has a chart showing availablity dates


Hate to tell you this but, if you can buy a vehicle during a calender year that is considered a release.


You have even lambasted others for the pulling same trick on falling back on the spell check card in the past. But now you are jumping feet first into the same hole.

I didn't say anything about your spelling problems before, because to do so just stoops to a level not needed.
Reply #9 Top
Hate to tell you this but, if you can buy a vehicle during a calender year that is considered a release.


Don't play dumb, your pulling at straws here. Release means new types and models. Not just the same model with one more years slapped on it. Just stretching for a "Gotcha".

Now if you want to say "new" vehicle release that is an entirely different matter.


WOW, you finally get it.... It took you what, three post.

And do try to use a spell checker....it's "Gotcha", not Goucha.


Please when you can't get any Gotcha, lets fall back to spell check, mister spell right:

Also the site you're referencing has a chart showing availability dates


Hate to tell you this but, if you can buy a vehicle during a calender year that is considered a release.


You have even lambasted others for the pulling same trick on falling back on the spell check card in the past. But now you are jumping feet first into the same hole.

I didn't say anything about your spelling problems before, because to do so just stoops to a level not needed.


That's what I get for not running my spell checker and opening my mouth. Just checked...calender is actually spelled correctly! Just used the wrong word.


Main Entry: 1cal·en·der
Pronunciation: 'ka-l&n-d&r
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -dered; cal·en·der·ing /-d(&-)ri[ng]/
Etymology: Middle French calandrer, from calandre machine for calendering, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin colendra cylinder, modification of Greek kylindros -- more at CYLINDER
: to press (as cloth, rubber, or paper) between rollers or plates in order to smooth and glaze or to thin into sheets



Now if you want to say "new" vehicle release that is an entirely different matter.


WOW, you finally get it.... It took you what, three post.


It may have taken me 3 posts.....but can you point out where you made such a distinction during the 3 posts? And quite a "major" one it is at that.
Reply #10 Top
I read somewhere (sorry, no link) that while Hybrid's are better for the environment, there is little reduction in the cost of ownership for the buyer. The markup you pay on a Hybrid car does not overcome what you would save on gas over the lifetime of the car. Almost better off buying a small car with respectable gas milage then buying the current generation of Hybrids.

The good news is that the popularity of Hybrids is driving the industry to invest in this type of technology. Maybe not as quickly as some would like, but it's a start.
Reply #11 Top
The only(1) American built(2) hybrid(3) to be released(4) next year(5) is from Saturn(6). I would not subject(7) buying American (8) auto stocks(9) for the dividends(10) this coming year(11).

My family(12) is already planning(13) to buy a hybrid(14) for our next vehicle(15). I just hate(16) having to buy(17) Foreign(18) and waiting on a list(19) for what ever I can get. Knowing my luck I will end up with the ugly lime green(20) car(21).

1: Only: To mean single, not two or three but one.
2: American Built: Built by an American Company, not something who’s parts are mostly made in foreign countries and then assembled with in the boarders to the United States by a Foreign operated Company . Ford and GM are examples of American Built Companies. Nissan, Toyota and Lexus would not be considered in that category.
3: Hybrid: A type of auto mobile engine that uses not only combustion to move, but also other means of propulsion. This word it is to note the use of a hybrid engine within a model of car, because not all models exclusively use hybrid engine, and some models may not be limited hybrid engines.
4: Released: Made available to the public for the first time.
5. Next year: to designate calendar year and not model. That would be 1st Jan thru 31Dec of the year 2006, not 2004, fall 2005, spring 2007, but only the year 2006.
6. Saturn: Referring to the American Auto Company Saturn, not to be confused with the planet or mythological god by that name. The car referred to in this article was not built on the plant Saturn or by the god Saturn. Though I am sure at least one auto worker in the production of this car will dream of being a god once.
7. Subject was meant to be really suggest: an act of advisement, not a demand.
8. American: Usually People or Company born/started within the western hemisphere, though some exceptions may be made for people who have forgiven their past citizenship and completed the petition to the home security agency for citizenship.
9. Auto Stocks: A certificate of ownership for a Automobile Company, in this case an American Automobile Company.
10. Dividends: A portion of a Companies profits given to the owner (stock holder) of a Company.
11. This coming year: see number 5.
12. Family: usually consisting of a husband, wife, Children, uncles, nieces, ect... I this case it only refers to my wife and I.
13. Planning: to schedule or make preparations for a future event.
14. Hybrid: see number 3.
15. next vehicle: Not the present or a past owned vehicle, but future purchased vehicle after the presently owned.
16. Hate: Dislike very much.
17. buy: to purchase
18. Foreign: In this case anything not built by am American Auto Company. see number 2.
19. list: a group of names placed in order of when people awaiting purchase of a said item.
20. lime green: a color that was actually used on cars produced in the 1980s and US forestry service vehicles. Let it be note that I really do not think any auto company will issue a lime green vehicle unless a specific request has been made by a purchaser.
21. Car: usually referring to an Automobile of a specific design. (i.e. not a truck, SUV, van, station wagon ect...)

These definitions and footnotes are provide for those who have difficulties will reading comprehension or those who think Gotcha games over simple things makes them look smart to others, when it is just making them look like something else.
Reply #12 Top
The good news is that the popularity of Hybrids is driving the industry to invest in this type of technology. Maybe not as quickly as some would like, but it's a start.


I agree.

But I would like to see more American Auto Companies release smaller vehicles like the Saturn. I will be driving near 90+ miles to work and back soon.

I presently drive a car to work that does 30 mpg. That is about $9.00 a day for fuel. If I can double the mpg on my next car, I would save $5400.00 in the five years just to work and back. I would have to say that initial cost vs. mpg ratio may depend on the over all cost of future gasoline and how much daily miles are driven. But you are right, the hybrids may not be the most cost efficient at this time (especially the present hybrid SUVs).

Also the good feeling that your doing something to help out and conserve oil, are propelling some into these new hybrids.
Reply #13 Top
Does the electric engine kick on at low speeds or high speed, yes I could google and do the research but thought since you have done the research you could help with that one question please.
Reply #14 Top
the honda civic has a tiny gas engine 1.3 liters or 1300 cc's, the electric motor in this car is used for passing, accelerating or just a slow boost from a nice gentle start,
Reply #15 Top
It is strange how the American companies keep thinking bigger is better. Sure they sell, but they didn't learn anything from the 70's. They were too late trying to catch up then and too late as well again. I know gas was somewhat plentiful til recently, but still I think some just buy the big ugly trucks for status. I guess if they want to pay the price that is their problem. However American companies aren't trying enough to produce a good car with good gas mileage, or at least that is not the primary goal.
Reply #16 Top
Geesh,

Those Hybrid cars are SO UGLY !!

I pulled up next to a Toyota Precis at the light the other day ( in my Suburban, fuel tank mortgaged full ) it looked like something George Jetson would drive ( if he didn't have a hovercraft )

As the light changed I left the Toyota sitting at the light, in a thin cloud of diesel exhaust...it couldn't even keep up with a diesel !!!!

Speaking of exhaust, have you ever pulled up next to one of these flex fuel, or CNG ( compressed natural gas ) cars ?

Our city has half of their fleet stinking up intersections throughout town, even the cop cars smell of sulphur...ewww.
Reply #17 Top


not so dyno.. the civic hybrid looks just like any other civic. you, you, hybrid racist you! heh
Reply #18 Top
GASP !!!!

I've been branded a Automotive Racist ! Next you'll be accusing me of hanging a NASCAR flag in my closet, huffing premium fuel, and secretly gathering like minded racist for planning meetings.......
You wanna come over Sunday and watch the race with us ???