The dubya assholes give most of the technical clean-up and repair contracts to their friends, ie Halliburton and Bechtel, withot bid requirements, I might add.

Dabe, you really can't avoid the colorful language, can you?

Meanwhile, you may or may not be surprised to know that one of the families that my own family grew to most care about along our various ways was one of a construction worker that came from Mississippi and put in several years in our area. He rented the trailer home that my family lived in during the first few years of my own life, when my parents were fairly poor newly weds, my father was a lowly paid law enforcement officer working for the state, and my mother was a waitress when not laid off because of pregnancy.

That worker and his wife were some of the most down-to-earth people you'd ever know. He took great pride, as did his wife, in keeping a very nice and tidy home. They paid their rent on time every time. They kept their home neat, the grass cut and neatly trimmed, and were the kind of neighbors that every family should want.

The thing is that they rented the space back in a time when whites and blacks didn't get along very well in our country. Around the times of the riots in D.C. and other areas following the assination of Martin Luther King, Jr.

They were from a poor southern family that happened to be black. For a border state that had seen it's share of racial issues, my parents renting to them at all caused a bit of a stir in our small town area. But everyone that came to know this family quickly grew to love them, respect them, and believe that they were the best kind of people.

That worker worked for Bechtel.

Many others like him worked for them as well, and helped to build several landmark structures in the Chesapeake bay area.

My own grandfather worked for them several times. He, like the other worker before him, made good money for doing a honest day's work. Some times it was union labor, sometimes not. The jobs included good benefits that helped pay for the medical needs of my grandmother, our friends family and the other workers families like them.

You can trash Bechtel if you wish, and trash Haliburton if you wish, but in many (and I mean many) cases what and who you are trashing is honest, hard-working employees that are quite literally building "America" (the good old U.S.A.) These are people that are paid honest wages for honest work. Not menial wages, and not menial or trivial work. Skilled construction workers earn quite well in this country. Even non-skilled ones can and do when they work on sites in "connected" areas ala the Sopranos.

For as fat and rich as you (Dabe) and the C.O.L. may want to paint the guys at the top of Haliburton, Bechtel and others, you blindly ignore the subs and others that work on the contracts that are being given out to those companies to build, or rebuild places like New Orleans, Shreveport, Baton Rouge, Brownsville, and other cities that have been hard-hit by these recent Hurricanes, or in far more dangerous areas, places like Iraq where anyone that is helping to rebuild is most likely wearing a big fat target on their front/back/side and any other facing direction, which in turn leads to these companies having to make fantastic offers to prospective employees that will laugh in the face of danger and go for a chance at making a lot of money as quickly as possible.

So, again, go ahead and paint with the broad brush. While you are at it, take the brush and put it where you foot is most likely at, or use it to brush your teeth at least.


On to the real issue, how do you help the poor is a great question that we'll likely never get a real answer to. As soon as there are no poor to take advantage of, many liberals are out of a job, and many people who take advantage of those poor are also no longer able to find cheap labor. Neither side really has an incentive to fix the problem, and because of that, the only real way to help the poor is for the poor to help themselves. They can help themselves by doing as our family friend and his wife did - take advantage of the free education that is offered to everyone in this country. And then further take advantage of the system by excelling in school. Earn high marks, and if possible get an academic scholarship, or almost as good, get a grant of some sort. If necessary, get a student loan. If need be, work for McDonalds, or Chick-fil-a or a host of other companies that offer educational assistance to their employees (by what I know, even good old 'evil' Wal*Mart does that for some employees). Work your way up and out. And then once out, lend a hand to the ones left behind. Be a mentor, be an example, be someone that others can look up to and follow, and remind them that drugs aren't the answer. Alcohol isn't the answer. AFDC or other forms of welfare are not the answer. No one can be responsible for you but you.

Once that lesson is learned, and once someone learns that there are no easy ways out, then they can break the cycle of poverty without resorting to violence, or illegal activities like selling drugs, stealing cars, or other things that land much higher percentages of minorities in the legal system than other races do.

Or they continue to have children when they can't afford them.

... and there simply is no excuse for that to be happening either.

Thanks to very liberalized sex education teaching in school systems, and places like Planned Parenthood clinics (some of which also include abortion clinics or services/referrals) that pass out birth control materials for free(including Condoms, and other materials to help stop un-wanted pregnancies before they happen), no one really needs to be bringing children into the world that can't be cared for.

That some people still do is a testament to the idea that paying AFDC to unwed mothers is not fixing the system. Though we have reformed welfare somewhat, there are still places it can and should be reformed, including perhaps more funding for employment education and more requirements for those that get government money to work for it. Though, of course, we'll hear complaints about the jobs that are found through that training are low paying, don't pay living wages, don't provide benefits, and don't let people break free of poverty, which is not necessarily true. If someone wants to break free, they can.

What happened to the un-wed mother's family? To the dead-beat dad's family? Where are the relatives of that individual when it is time to provide day care for the child so the parent can get training? Even if we have to provide day-care for the child, we still should see the parent making more than just a token effort to get a job that will support her family.

And dead-beat dads are being dealt with. Many states and localities will suspend dead-beat dad's drivers license, business license, and other such measures in efforts to make sure that those individuals live up to their obligations. We waste (and I mean waste) tons of money paying for social services workers that help track such things and help fix such problems. I say waste because the human waste that try to cheat system are making us waste everyone's money because of their own failings. Those individuals should be forced to pay even *more* to cover the costs of making them pay their fair share. Perhaps then they'd make sure to spread the word that spreading legs isn't the answer.

...... I consider myself a moderate on this issue. I do believe that taking personal responsibility rather than being dependent is correct not only politically, but spiritually and morally. That sounds conservative, but I also intensely dislike "the useless feckless poor deserve their fate" mentality of some conservatives - the ones that make 'compassionate conservative' seem an oxymoron. The words "I have no compassion for..." deny 2,000 years of Christian culture more surely than any Marxist-Leninist.

Chak, this is one of the most insightful responses I've read on the subject so far. You sum up the issues between right and left so succinctly. Well done.

Dabe, you really can't avoid the colorful language, can you?

Nope. You really can't avoid being patronizing, can you?

We all have personal anectodotes about our experiences with being poor, or knowing poor people, or parents who were poor, etc. So, thanks Terp, for the anecdote that really doesn't address the issue I raised. My point has nothing to do with the workers who may work for Bechtel or Halliburton, and/or any of their subcontractors. My point is that by getting the no-bid contracts, then having the glorious presidential directive whereby they do not have to pay prevailing wages, they can now get away with paying employees less to clean and repair and whatever the mess in the gulf states. The result is they get to pocket the difference, because we all know (unless some of us are particularly naive) that they will get paid the same amount of mega money to implement the contracts, regardless that they are required to pay out less to their employees. Get it, terp? Understand now? So, your family, their workers, whomever are now going to get SCREWED by dubya. Get it?

The three step plan to avoid being poor.

1) Don't have children until you are financially able, even if it means waiting until you are older. If you never get financially able, don't have children; you can't afford them. Note, there is only one way to get pregnant. Ask your parents or a responsible adult if you're not sure how it works. Note #2, financially able means having a steady job, being responsible with money, and living within your means. See a financial advisor if you're unsure what this means.
2) Don't have children until you are in a committed relationship. With two people, it is not only easier to be financially able to afford to have children, it sets a good example for them and gives them much needed role models. This is necessary to break the cycle of poverty.
3) Read #1 and #2

Although this method is not guaranteed to work for 100% of the population due to severe mental or other health problems, it works very well for the huge majority of those who follow the plan rigorously.

they can now get away with paying employees less to clean and repair and whatever the mess in the gulf states.

and you are so damned cocksure that they are going to get away with paying less right?

Speak of patronizing, you take the cake.

How much do you think a worker that has to wade into the cesspool that is New Orleans to rebuild it is going to take for their wage?

Workers aren't that damned stupid (though liberals seem to think they are) and generally are not taken advantage of unless they let themselves be.

Understand that, because the people that are going to get the money, low bid, no bid, high bid, or whatever you want to do to protect their butts are going to get the same wages no matter how the money is handed out.

We have the same idiotic thinking trying to torpedo the building of the replacement of the Woodrow Wilson bridge in the D.C. area, and the soon to be new stadium for the Washington Nationals. Though shown multiple times that in trying to build in minority set-asides, local preferences, and other protections for workers (thanks to liberal governments that preceeded the current Republican Governor in Maryland) would result in higher prices for the projects and no higher wages for the workers, the local politicians bent over backward to try to win the governor's job for the liberal side. It didn't work, and thankfully the new governor in Maryland has tried to correct the contract situation.

In D.C. the liberal mayor, actually probably more moderate than liberal, has been chastised because he hasn't provided enough safeguards for some, too many for others, and no matter what, no one is happy that the contracts aren't just plain handing out money to local workers. In the end that is just what will happen though, because some one will sub out jobs just to meet quotas and then those "tokens" will sit on their butts and "earn" $$$ without lifting a finger.

And again, all of the employees for these groups will make whatever they can, because even as you and the C.O.L. insist that low wages are the prevailing thing, you miss the fact that the housing market is still pretty damned warm, paying people good wages to be electricians, carpenters, steel workers, and other "skilled labor" positions, which means unless your job is strictly to haul bricks, and even if it is, you are gonna make damned sight more than $10 an hour, or even $20 an hour.

If you'd prefer to be unskilled in any craft or trade, then hey, more power to you. The jobs at McDonalds do tend to pay only $6 - $9 an hour. The ones at Wal*Mart stocking shelves (heavy labor that requires, and lots of thinking too I'm sure) pay on the low end too. Perhaps we can put a few more liberals (you know, the folks that tend to be mentally deficient) to work in those jobs too so they don't strain their brains, and merely need to be able to move boxes around and put stock on shelves.

Even the cashiers tend to earn reasonable wages at many of those places because management has found that not paying cashiers enough tends to encourage the cashiers to find ways to pay themselves or their own friends.

Oh, I forget, you want health benefits for all of these folks, right? Except again, many of them never need the benefits anyway, or if they do need benefits, it's because of an injury on the job which is covered by Worksmen comp. If they need insurance for their families, then duh! again, perhaps they should be considering NOT HAVING FAMILIES until they can really afford to pay for the priviledge.

The dubya assholes give most of the technical clean-up and repair contracts to their friends, ie Halliburton and Bechtel, withot bid requirements, I might add. The contracts are worth billions of dollars.

WOW, since I own twenty shares of Halliburton in my retirement portfolio, I must be rolling in the money from dividends.....

Nope, I am receiving only a $.45 dividend this quarter. That is a full 10% less then the $.50 I have received for the last five years (up to before Bush came to office). Link I am part owner of Halliburton, and with inflation for the last five years, now I'm mad because I'm receiving less from all those no bid contracts. I think I'm going to have to sell my stock because I know other companies that make more money. I think I will buy ITT stock (you know the company contracted to issue out the welfare checks in over 35 states), because they have dividends of $.75.

I am part owner of Halliburton,

You should be so proud. You're supporting a war profiteer. Nice.

pictoratus

What do tell the millions of children that are born to parents that do not follow your advice? DIE?

For Dabe and the other rabid anti-no-bid contract types, how about turning around and explaining then why the Federal government, at almost all levels, shouldn't be replaced by the lowest bidder for all work they do?

Oh, you don't want to work for lowest bidders? They underpay because they underbid and didn't factor in enough overhead to pay decent benefits without skimming away profits from the skimmers at the tops of the companies, no matter how small or how large?

But seriously, we keep hearing screams from the government worker types when President Bush or others start talking about making those people compete for those jobs and justify why they should be federal workers, rather than contractors. We heard it about the TSA, we've heard it about DoD, and we'll hear it about others. Making civil service types justify why they should be government, rather than contract workers isn't fair. The money gets cut in one pot, but added to another, it just rewards the Haliburtons and the Bechtels and the IBMs and other companies of the world, right?

The hypocrisy is thick enough to get stuck in.

Dabe, you also btw support a war profiteer - or does the name Michael Moore (or, hell, for that matter C.O.L. Gene himself, he the author of the Bush bashing book series, not ring a bell for you?) Are you so very proud of yourself. How about taking money from scum like Soros? Or do you believe his money is so clean once it gets into the hands of people at the top of the DNC?

How about Jesse Jackson, and the millions that have poured into his hands, where is the outrage because that money hasn't helped the poor?

My book contains the documented results of the Bush policies. The fact that most would look at the results of Bush and his policies and conclude they are negative is the source of the Bush Bashing. Ever hear don't shoot the messenger.

My point has nothing to do with the workers who may work for Bechtel or Halliburton, and/or any of their subcontractors. My point is that by getting the no-bid contracts

So dabe....have you "ANY" idea just how long a bidding process takes? I don't think you do. Thing is we DON'T have time to go though all that rigmarole. New Orleans needs to be back up and running ASAP! There are people that would like to come home and can't, because the city is not ready yet for occupation. Had this been put up for bid no progress at all would have been made yet. Get over your blind hatred of all things that are even remotely connected to the current administration. The 2 companies you mention just happen to be the best companies with enough resources available to do the job quickly and efficiently.

Dabe, you also btw support a war profiteer - or does the name Michael Moore (or, hell, for that matter C.O.L. Gene himself, he the author of the Bush bashing book series, not ring a bell for you?) Are you so very proud of yourself. How about taking money from scum like Soros? Or do you believe his money is so clean once it gets into the hands of people at the top of the DNC?

Talk about stupid dumbass moronic righty spin, boy oh boy this maybe takes the cake.

You should be so proud. You're supporting a war profiteer. Nice.

Webster's II:

Prof-i-teer: One who makes excessive profits on commodities in short supply.

Notice the word "Excessive". $.45 is not excessive. My largest stock holding is in Granite Construction, a companies that builds infrastructor projects for the Government. I got $.86 last quarter Link

As for how much Halliburton is claimed to be making, it appears that there are many other companies making much more money that I could profiteer off of.

If I was you, I would check your retirment funds too. Unless you have what is a Green fund, you will find big tabacco, and defense related stock everywhere.

You still have to show me where I'm making more money from war progiteering with Halliburton, after the war started from these no-bid contracts. Because my Dividends are not showing it. They are lower now then before the war.

It is true, there is no time to bid the initial recovery work. However, Halliburton has overbilled the governmnt in the past and needs to be watched very carefully.

However, Halliburton has overbilled the governmnt in the past and needs to be watched very carefully.

On that, I'd agree wholeheartedly. Audit the bejeezus out of anyone that is doing Katrina and Rita recovery work, and make sure that you are getting value for the money that has been paid out. If anyone is caught gouging in any way, or embezzling in any way, throw the book at them, and make the fine so large that it'll take three lifetimes to pay off.

It is true, there is no time to bid the initial recovery work. However, Halliburton has over billed the government in the past and needs to be watched very carefully.

God, you have NO IDEA how much it pains me to say this. But I got to agree with Col. How you like that dabe? Me and the COL agreeing against you.

I am glad we agree on this issue.

How you like that dabe? Me and the COL agreeing against you.

I could give a rat's ass

You should be so proud. You're supporting a war profiteer. Nice.

Do you know John Edwards was buying and selling stocks in defense and weapons companies before the war? So if you voted for him then you supported a war profiteer also.

About 1,800 people who were depressed or had muscle strains avoided work requirements in the state's welfare program last year because Massachusetts considered them disabled, even though their maladies may have been easily treated, according to state statistics and interviews with specialists. The fate of disabled welfare recipients is a key element in an ongoing debate on Beacon Hill, as Governor Mitt Romney urges state lawmakers to adopt tougher federal disability standards that would force thousands of people considered disabled under current state standards to go to work. Some disability advocates say Romney is on the right track in forcing recipients with disabilities into the workforc

Link

How you like that dabe? Me and the COL agreeing against you. I could give a rat's ass

Just goes to show how utterly ridiculous you are.