Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

It's not the car you drive, it's the gallons you burn

Environmental hypocrisy

I cringe everytime I hear people yell about SUVs and their gas mileage. I was talking to a friend of mine in California who made some pretty...militant remarks about people who drive SUVs and their irresponsible behavior. To which I said, "Wait, don't you commute an hour per day to work?" To which he said, "Well sure, but I drive a Toyota Corolla." So what?

I don't care what kind of car you're driving, if you're driving over an hour (total) per day, you're burning a lot of gas. Some people have to drive that far and other people simply prefer to live out in the country. And I have no problem with that. But if you do live far away from work (or in the case of my friend simply have to drive through heavy traffic for long periods of time) then you can't go around condemning other people's car choices.

I don't have an SUV. But I do have a car that only gets 18 miles to the gallon. I also drive 6 miles to work and 6 miles home. I spend about 20 minutes per day on the road -- total.

The Corolla gets around 35MPG on average if you're driving it mostly in the city. My friend drives about 25 miles each way, 50 miles per day. So he burns 1.43 gallons of gas per day. I burn 0.67 gallons of gas per day. Over the course of the year, he uses over 500 gallons of gas. I use 243 gallons of gas -- less than half as much.

I don't care what kind of car other people drive. But if you're going to take on a holier-than-thou attitude on fuel standards, then you better be factoring in your commute distance.

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Good article. I'm in the same predicament. I've started walking to work as my car is 33 years old and not the most economical (though better than alot of SUVs!).

I guess in my own way I am trying to offset the amount of fuel I burn each weak but using public transportation and my bike. I look at it this way - what's the point of dropping down alot of money to save X dollars and gain a few extra miles per gallon if I INCREASE the distance driven and burn the exact same amount of fuel at the end of the week?

You get a cookie good job.

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I got Dejavu reading this.

Also a factor is the amount of people being transported.

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Excellent article Drag, but take it a bit further even. Add in the "how much gasoline you use per person" and then you are getting somewhere.

Go back to the example of your friend, how much does he use just for one person, vs. you for one person. If you put a second person into your vehicle, the economy gets much better for you. Same for your friend, yet your friend probably does as many in the country does - drives by themselves, and burns up all the more fuel.

Issues like per person fuel usage is part of why I greatly admire the "slug lines" that exist and work well for getting people into and out of the D.C. area. Total strangers hook rides with other total strangers every day. Into and out of the city, where they can go to work. It's a work of art really, and it does save fuel, it helps get people home faster as the added riders allow the driver to use the HOV "express lanes", and everyone is happier.

Yet today in the D.C. area we hear reports of people that are already bitchin' and moanin' that the ride is really gonna suck next week on the Metro (mass transit) because a lot of non-riders are gonna pile on and make the trains and buses more crowded than usual. Rather than being happy that they are saving fuel, saving money, and helping the environment, there's just griping that it's gonna suck, and grumbling that even with gas at $3.49 a gallon (or more) it's better to drive than ride on the Metro.

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I differ on a couple of (meaningless) points.

a) City driving uses more gas than highway. That's why we have city/highway on the sticker. Most people in the country that I know do a lot less menial travelling, simply because it isn't convienent to go to the mall three times on the weekend.

People with SUVs in the city still use more gas than people with economy cars. Granted, they still use less than someone who drives 50 miles one way to work in an economy car. That doesn't change the fact that they'd be using much less with a more efficient vehicle.

The problem with this debate is that it doesn't mean a damn thing. Demand for gas went up in the US because of SUVs in the 90's, and the price of oil didn't react much. China's increase in demand, though, is right now. China and Venezuala have more to do with the price of oil than consumers in the US. If everyone in the US was driving a Geo Metro getting 50mpg, gas would still be this price.

Granted, it wouldn't have as big an impact on the consumer themselves. That's up to the consumer, though. There is no shortage of oil in the US. The problem is global. The market for oil has become so competitive that in order to get gas INTO the US we have to pay more. Once it is here, it doesn't matter if we use a little or a lot.

So people who drive inefficient cars aren't hurting anyone but themselves economically, and if they want to pay for it, let them. Let the environmentalists bitch about SUVs, because they don't impact the price of oil.

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This is a silly attempt at justification of ones own excess.

Imagine if you drove those 6 miles to and from work, and had a car that got 35+ miles per gallon.

Being wasteful is being wasteful, regardless of the extent you are being wasteful. That is something that cannot be justified.

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' This is a silly attempt at justification of ones own excess.'
Definitely. He's posted a virtually indistinguishable article at least once before. I suspect it's a (repeated) attempt to assuage a secretly guilty conscience.

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" I suspect it's a (repeated) attempt to assuage a secretly guilty conscience.

As opposed to busybody assholes who feel the need to micromanage people's lives and what kind of car they buy.

I suspect it is yet another sad attempt to feel superior.

re: wastefulness, SUVs haven't caused enough demand to effect a fraction of the hike in price of oil. If people prefer to pay the extra for gas, it's their business not yours. If you want to address the current price of oil, talk to China, and the oil peddlers around the world.

Chavez can afford to give away oil to Cuba. Do you really think these hateful regimes make China pay the same for oil that we do? If anything, I'm sure they delight in our own needless self-blame.

People who hate Bush jack up the price of oil, and other ignorant people use it as an excuse to hate Bush and blame other Americans.

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The problem with this debate is that it doesn't mean a damn thing. Demand for gas went up in the US because of SUVs in the 90's, and the price of oil didn't react much. China's increase in demand, though, is right now. China and Venezuala have more to do with the price of oil than consumers in the US. If everyone in the US was driving a Geo Metro getting 50mpg, gas would still be this price.

Not picking on you Baker ... just using the quote for a point.

I wonder if all those Chinese and Venezuelan drivers are driving fuel efficient vehicles? I'm guessing they are.

Kind of ironic isn't it? SUV sales increase in the 90's and the price of gas barely budges, then fuel efficient car sales in China and Venezuela increase this decade and gas prices go through the roof.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I don't feel guilty. Why should I feel guilty? I don't happen to be one of those people that think CO2 emmissions are causing problems for the environment. So whether was driving 6 miles or 100 miles a day, I don't think it's an issue.

However, for those people who do go around trying to make people who drive SUVs feel bad, their hypocricy is thus illustrated.

I don't want a car that gets 32 miles to the gallon. I like cars that go very fast and are luxurious. I also use an air conditioner in my home too. Having some lamer calling my car "Wasteful" means about as much to me as some guy who doesn't use air conditioning in their house saying how bad I am for the environment. Boo-hoo.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Being wasteful is being wasteful, regardless of the extent you are being wasteful. That is something that cannot be justified.

I can justify my "waste" -- I enjoy driving my car. That's all the justification I need.

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Here's another way to look at it:

Let's suppose that Brad and his friend could both buy a hybrid vehicle that gets 60 MPG (not at all unreasonable, I'm told).

Brad would then use 0.2 gallons per day, or 73 gallons per year, saving the world 170 gallons.
His friend would use 0.83 gallons per day, or 303 gallons a year, saving the world 220 gallons. (Actual gas usage of "over 500" was 522.)

Clearly his friend is the more irresponsible of the two, for not buying a hybrid.

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If Brad is anything like myself - there is pride of ownership. Something of an dead concept in the leasing world.

There is pride in not making car payments.
There is pride in driving something that is pleasing to YOU
There is pride in enjoying the drive and not considering it an A to B commute like on a bus.

I will add the other big pollutor, turnover.

People who flip cars every 2 or 3 years consume far more energy than anyone else. It is one thing to drive a vehicle than consumes energy. Add the cost of manufacturing to the final energy usage. Since the manufacturing process is spent unrecoverable energy who is the bigger polluter now?

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Stegasord and FC are fine examples of how the enviornmental movement is being crippled by retards. Way to swing opinion away from your positions cornholes.

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Many people who drive an hour to work every day do it because they can not afford housing near their work. I know that is the case for many people at my work. None of us can comfortably absorb these gas prices, but housing in the city is frankly beyond us unless we stick three or four of us in one apartment.

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I'm no environmentalist. I'm just pointing out the guy seems to feel guilty and wants to post more about it so he can try to feel better about himself. I hate wasteful people, but I have a certain tickle now when I see people with gas hogs and SUV's filling their tanks for $90 at the station. But draginol is what most people call a evergy hog, he consumers more energy and is more wasteful than 10 combined families in the United Kingdom, and seems proud of this? This is an example of everything wrong with this country. The chest pounding about the excessive energy usage is even more disturbing. No wonder the world hates Americans. Sad.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

That's fine. But are you condemning those who save on resources by living closer to where they work but whose cars are less efficient?

Wow, talk about projecting. I am not sure what exactly I am allegedly feeling "guilty" about.

Let's walk through your..ahem..logic. You get a tickle about people paying $90 to fill their cars. Well, I hate to be the one to show you the obvious falacy of your statement but how much someone pays at the pump is purely a factor of how large their gas tank is. If a gas tank can hold 30 gallons of gas that costs $3 /gal then it's going to cost them $90 to fill it.

In my case, my "hog" (which isn't an SUV incidentally, it's actually a car made in the United Kingdom which is pretty ironic given your holier-than-thou attitude) burns roughly 1 gallon of gas per day (give or take). My tank holds 18 gallons. I don't let it go totally empty so I end up filling it every two weeks or so.

Tell me, Steg, how much gas do you burn per day? Who's being wasteful?

In my experience, and what inspires me to write articles like this is that hypocritical proto-environmentalists try to change the focus on gas usage away from the obvious -- HOW MUCH FUEL DO YOU USE to something fairly irrelevant -- how many miles can your car go per gallon. And that's because, too often, the people screaming about fuel economy are the people who drive 2 hours a day.

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But do all big SVU's in America park anywhere they like as they do in England ?
ARE MOST OF THEM BLOCKING UP ENTRANCES TO SCHOOLS TWICE A DAY PUTTING THE PUPILS AND OTHERS IN DANGER?

It seem the cost of fuel makes no difference to peoples attitude YOU (USA) pay $3 per gallon ( big gallon) we ( UK) pay $10 per , small gallon but I reckon there are more big 4x4 BMWS PORCHES,VOLVOES,NISSANS MItsubushies here than the more economical 1-2 litre saloons
AND THEY NEVER HAVE MORE THAN ONE ADULT IN THEM.

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ARE MOST OF THEM BLOCKING UP ENTRANCES TO SCHOOLS TWICE A DAY PUTTING THE PUPILS AND OTHERS IN DANGER?

Are your police retarded? Or is this simply hyperbole on your part. I think the ALL CAPS speak for themselves really.

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Funny how many people can always shift. It's not this but that.

Truly, it's both factors: what car you drive and how many gallons you burn

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nice twist on things brad, so the person that walks is a better person because they use no gas at all?

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I agree its not entirely the problem of what vehicle people drive as to how much energy they burn. That isn't driving up gas prices. People can buy things with bad gas mileage if it pleases them. Plus manufactuers are making them, and they certainly wouldn't be doing so if people weren't buying them.
The problem is that oil/gas is becoming more and more limited. Sure the resources will still last many years, but with more countries, especially China, moving into the automotive age there is less oi/gas for everyone else.
I think the world is way behind on trying to develop other means of powering a car. Of course part of the problem isn't that they aren't trying, people aren't receptive to their attempts. Its not possible for most alternatives to achieve prices that work for the average consumer, especially where the average consumer is mainly looking for speed and fun versus simply transportation to get them from here to there. I don't completely fault the car companies, but why should they completely foot the bill for choosing alternative means of power. They don't really want to change anyway since they don't see the market there.
It starts with the governments. Of the governments would switch over to alternatives, they have a better chance of catching on and also it would be easier to implement all over. Of course I don't feel the US government anyway at all cares about alternative power. Bush is all about oil/gas. I used to be proud of this country, taking a lead in the world. More so now I feel the US is going to hell.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

nice twist on things brad, so the person that walks is a better person because they use no gas at all?

I'm not the one condemning people for how much fuel they use, what kind of car they drive, or how far they drive.

What I am trying (and apparently failing) to point out is that in my experience, the people who scream about SUVs tend to be people who put a LOT of miles on the car.

Perhaps it's my engineering background but this issue seems pretty straight forward. If you're really uptight about the impact of fossil fuels have on our environment, then there's only one issue: How many gallons of said fossil fuel are you using?

Who's the bigger polluter? My retired father in law with his big, 10mpg SUV that he puts maybe 500 miles on per year? Or my holier-than-thou friend in LA who drives 500 miles per week on his Corolla?

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I totally agree Draginol. I take public transport myself.

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I refuse to pay the oil companies that are the biggest looters right now since the Hurricane in the Gulf states.
I don't drive at all now. I walk and/or ride a bike. I positioned myself in order to do that. I don't use natural gas or propane. I have things that have used petroleum based products in their manufacturing, but I propose not to buy anymore of it, ie the keyboard and computer I am writing this at among other things. I ask for paper instead of plastics at the supermarket.
So I think I can criticize the people that drive Hummers with the plastic Handicap sign hanging on the mirror... or can criticize the people who drive 250,000 motor homes that get 3 miles to the gallon that are seen up and down the tourist spots of this nation.

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I understand your point Brad.

I have a 3/4 ton truck that gets ~12 MPG and my commute to work is about 5 miles each way, so I burn less than a gallon per day commuting. If I have to drive to town or any other place that is a father distance I try to drive my s-10 pickup which gets 23 mpg. For me it's more about my own pocketbook and living a considerable distance from town than how much I'm burning. However it seems that if a person looks at it in the amount burned instead of mpg of the vehicle it makes alot of sense.

Many of the people where I work have gotten Geo Metros to do thier commute and they play the holier than thou game but, they have 50+ mile per day commutes so we burn essentially the same amount of fuel!

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