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Amnesty International & Hypocrisy

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Amnesty International & Hypocrisy

The Most Offensive Defence is A Spun Offence.

from JoeUser Forums

gulag.

amazing that one small word can be so powerful or evoke such a horrific response. 

i first became familiar with the concept while reading 'one day in the life of ivan denisovich' by alexander solzhenitsyn when i was still in grade school (clearly my recreational reading tastes were a bit precocious as well as extreme).  for a week during the summer between 7th and 8th grade, i shivered in the heat and humidity of late july in da motah city as ivan and i--convict slave laborers--endured the frozen extremes of siberia and the brutally inhumane excesses of a pitiless totalitarian state that had nullified our lives.

why were we there?  for how long would we remain?  there was no way of knowing.  worst of all, no one--least of all our former families and friends-- except those who kept us here and our fellow slaves knew for sure we even existed. 

amnesty international's international report, released on may 25, 2005, characterizes as a gulag the facility at guantanamo, cuba where the us holds some of  those captured in its war on terrorism.   not surprisingly, the current administration refutes that designation.  according to bush, it's an obvious case of disassembly (which he defines as lying).

not surprisingly, there are more than a few ju bloggers who are outraged by the amnesty international report.  

the war on terror is an honorable endeavor being waged against those who hate us and are willing to go to any length to destroy us because--as our president has proclaimed--they hate freedom.

finally  amnesty international has revealed its true agenda  and shown it hates us and our freedom as well.

how could we have been so foolish as to believe that an organization which has, for years, despised  the freedom enjoyed in north korea, china, vietnam, algeria, myanmar,  the maldives, turkey, morroco, today's russia, the former soviet union and its eastern european colonies, chile (under pinochet), argentina, cuba, the sudan and dozens of other bastion of freedom countries wouldn't eventually add us to the list.? 

fortunately we have plenty of examples on which to base our response---thanks to those nations for which this whole thing is old hat.

before we go there, let's clear something up.  guantanamo isn't a network of slave labor camps in the wilds of siberia into which millions of our own citizens disappear, most never to return.  hell, it's not even cold there.

on the other hand, perhaps amnesty international meant it figuratively.  after all, there are 500 people who've been locked up in gitmo for nearly 3 years without ever having been charged with any crime.  as far as they know, it could be another 20 years before they'll have a day in court.  their families have no clue as to their status.  no one except the force that's detaining them knows whether they're well or ill or alive.

nawwww.  that couldn't be it.

ai has a lotta nerve.  after all, didn't the president pledge in his 2nd inaugural address that the us was dedicated to spreading democracy and freedom.  aren't we spending billions and putting our military into harm's way to do just that in iraq?  if you can't trust our government, who can you trust?  

(who better to answer that question than those of you who join heston in announcing that they'll have to pry your gun outta your cold dead hands.  but then again, amnesty international doesn't own any guns huh?)

so anyway we're busy spreading freedom and democracy  not only by deed but by example--certainly there's no better advertisement than good example--and all amnesty international can do is criticize us.

no wonder cheney took offense and won't take ai seriously.  he's a flexible guy and just because he, the president and rumsfeld used to take them seriously enough to cite them multiple times in white house position papers  on hussein's iraq  Link  (In August 2001 Amnesty International released a report entitled Iraq -- Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, which detailed the systematic and routine use of torture against suspected political opponents and, occasionally, other prisoners. Amnesty International also reports "Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out." ) , don't mean he cant change his mind.  or maybe his mind is the same but amnesty international is different. ( i can hear him singing along with joe walsh...'everybody's so different, i'm still the same.' )

fact is, amnesty international provided a good deal of the source material used by bush, cheney and rumsfeld to justify their planned invasion of iraq.  so having ai slam em now must really not bother them a bit because the organization just doesn't have any credibility

not that everything ai had to say about america was bad.  they approved the supreme court ruling that requires a court hearing for prisoners of the 'war on terror'.   big deal huh?

the final straw has to be ai's outrageous demands that the us stop secretly holding prisoners incommunicado (ghost prisoners), permit the international red cross access to all prisoners, ensure due process for all prisoners, implement an independent investigation of all allegations of torture and prosecute all who cause detainees to be brutalized or tortured while in the custody of the us. 

if that sounds familiar, it's probably cuz those damn amnesty international freedom-haters stole it directly from past presidents who demanded the soviet union do the same thing at their gulags.

if all of this pisses you off, you're not alone.

i'm pissed off too.  pissed off really badly that my country has engaged in the type of thing for which we used to condemn rogue states like north korea and the soviet union.   pissed off that my president says he wants to promote democracy and freedom throughout the world while eroding the essentials of democracy and freedom at home. pissed off that such blatant hypocrisy is ignored and--even worse--approved by those who claim to be the most stalwart advocates of the rule of law and our constitution.

one final note: in another thread, one commentor said he was dismayed because amnesty international had diminished the horror of the gulag in its report.  after all, there's no comparison.   this same commentor claims to be a student of history.  not a very good student in my opinion or he'd remember that gulags--like rome--aren't built in a day.  once you lay the first stone, the next one is a little easier. 

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Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top

the detainees have it a lot better than most criminal prisoners


Where is your proof for this? If we are playing the "statements must be backed up by proof" game


How about we start with this one.


Guantanamo Detainees Receiving 'First-Rate' Medical Care
By Kathleen T. Rhem
American Forces Press Service

NAVAL STATION GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba, Feb. 18, 2005 -- In every case, enemy combatants held here receive medical care that is "as good as or better than anything we would offer our own soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines,". the general in charge of the U.S. detention facility here said.

Detainees at Navy Station Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, receive the same high-quality medical care available to U.S. servicemembers, the detention facility commander said, including surgery in this operating room at the detainee hospital. Photo by Staff Sgt. Stephen Lewald, USA
(Click photo for screen-resolution image); high- resolution image available.

Army Brig Gen. Jay Hood, commander of Joint task Force Guantanamo, said medical personnel at the detainee hospital here have helped detainees recover from "some very significant war wounds."

Active-duty U.S. Navy medical personnel care for detainees as both inpatients and outpatients from a dedicated facility at Camp Delta, the main detainee- holding facility here. Most routine medical care is administered by corpsmen who visit each cellblock every two days or whenever a detainee requests care.

More serious health concerns among detainees are treated at the small, state- of-the-art medical facility dedicated to their care. A senior administrator at the facility called it "equivalent to a community acute-care hospital."

The facility is equipped with 19 inpatient beds (and can expand to 28), a physical-therapy area, pharmacy, radiology department, central sterilization area, and a single-bed operating room. More complex surgeries can be performed at the base naval hospital, which also is equipped with an intensive-care wing.

The detainee hospital also features an isolation room to prevent infectious diseases from spreading. So far, however, this room has only been used when ruling out diseases. For instance, an official explained, one detainee stayed in the isolation room when doctors thought he might have an active case of tuberculosis. The detainee was removed from the room when cell cultures disproved that preliminary diagnosis. To date, no detainees at Guantanamo Bay have been diagnosed with active tuberculosis or other infectious diseases, the official said.

As in every other part of Camp Delta, security is a constant concern. A dedicated force of Army military police officers is assigned to guard detainees receiving treatment in the hospital.

The Navy medical personnel who treat the detainees pride themselves on the quality of care they provide, said Capt. Barry Barendse, a Navy nurse and the deputy command surgeon for JTF Guantanamo. "The standard of care here is the best possible standard of care (the detainees) could get," he said.

Barendse said humane treatment is "second-nature" for medical personnel.

"It's not that we like hanging around the bad guys," he said. "The thing about it is that the job we do for a living is a very humane one, and we just keep that mindset."

And the detainees' actions or attitudes do nothing to deter the staff from their dedication to providing high-quality care. The captain explained that detainees have told staff members "they would kill them if they had the chance and go after the rest of their family if they could." And still, the standard of care never wavers, he said.

Today detainees held here form a generally healthy population. They've received immunizations most of them never would have had available to them in their home countries, Hood said.

Some detainees have been provided life-changing care, Barendse said. He cited prosthetic limbs and removal of cancerous tumors as examples of the level of care provided to detainees. "Some of them have even told us that they're very happy we're taking care of them," he said. "We've given them new life, some of them we really have."

Psychological care also is available here for detainees who need it or request it. Barendse noted that most Americans "have the luxury" of seeking psychiatric care if they need it; that's usually not an option in the countries most of these detainees come from.

Psychiatric care for the detainees, like any other medical care provided to them, is important because it's the right thing to do and "because of the possibility they may not be in this prison the rest of their lives," Barendse said. "If they were sick when they got here or they're sick while they're here, we still want to get them well, so wherever and whatever they're going to do can be done in a normal state."


And then this one:


Detainees Living in Varied Conditions at Guantanamo
By Kathleen T. Rhem
American Forces Press Service

NAVAL BASE GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba, Feb. 16, 2005 -- The detainee population at the U.S. naval base here is a diverse group. The roughly 545 detainees hail from some 40 countries and speak at least 17 different languages.

The entrance to Camp 1 in Guantanamo Bay's Camp Delta. The base's detention camps are numbered based on the order in which they were built, not their order of precedence or level of security. Photo by Kathleen T. Rhem
(Click photo for screen-resolution image); high-resolution image available.

But nearly as diverse as the individuals themselves are the conditions in which they're held.

Since U.S. officials began holding enemy combatants here in January 2002, an elaborate system to manage those detainees in a humane manner, protect guards and maximize intelligence has evolved here.

Today, prisoners are divided into four levels, based on how well they comply with camp rules, explained a senior Navy petty officer serving here.

Navy Master Chief Petty Officer Tracy Padmore, an aviation maintenance technician from Naval Air Station Jacksonville, Fla., explained that detainees are placed in levels based solely on how well they cooperate with guards' instructions. "(The levels) have nothing to do with what a detainee's (intelligence) value is or what he might say or do in an interrogation booth," he said.

"Humane" and "consistent" seem to be watchwords for members of the joint task force here. Anyone working with detainees uses these words right off the bat when describing what they do. Guards and officers at Guantanamo consistently appear genuinely offended when asked about allegations in the civilian media about detainee abuses at Guantanamo Bay.

"I'm not here to say we're all perfect," Padmore said. "But these young men and women carry out their duties in a highly professional manner." He added that when minor infractions of the rules by guards have occurred, they've been punished swiftly.

"Detainees here at Guantanamo are treated in a humane manner at all times by the security folks and the intelligence folks who work with them," Army Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, said.

He said all JTF members are strongly focused on their mission, "the safe, secure, humane custody of the detainees under our charge."

Hood explained that information collected since the detainees have been held here has helped officials learn how best to handle the detainees' continued detention and to design suitable facilities.

Level 1 detainees wear white "uniforms" and share living spaces with other detainees. At the other end of the spectrum, Level 4 detainees wear orange, hospital scrub-type outfits and have fewer privileges.

Padmore, who is assigned to Joint Task Force Guantanamo based on prior corrections experience, described a typical Level 1 detainee as "compliant and willing to follow camp rules." Whereas, Level 4 detainees generally "have a litany of offenses," from threatening other detainees or guards to hurling bodily fluids at guards or refusing to come out of the cell when ordered.

To a certain extent, the level a detainee is placed in determines where he is housed, as well. Most Level 1 detainees are afforded extra privileges in Camp 4. (Camps are numbered based on the order in which they were built, not their order of precedence or level of security.)

Gone are the days of concrete slabs and open-air chain-link enclosures in Camp X-Ray. Hood explained that Camp X-Ray was a hastily built structure to deal with a rapidly changing situation in the war on terrorism and that the facilities there were never meant to be used for long-term detention. Engineers began construction on Camp Delta, which replaced Camp X-Ray in April 2002, shortly after detainees began arriving here, he said.

In Camp 4, part of Camp Delta, detainees live in 10-man bays with nearly all- day access to exercise yards and other recreational privileges.

Sgt. 1st Class Todd Rundle, an Army Reserve military police officer, explained that Camp 4 is Camp Delta's only medium-security facility. Doors in the camp are normally opened with keys, but a mechanical override can be controlled from inside the centrally located "Liberty Tower," the camp's command post, in an emergency.

Detainees generally are allowed out in exercise yards attached to their living bays seven to nine hours a day. Exercise yards include picnic tables under cover and ping-pong tables. Detainees also have access to a central soccer area and volleyball court.

Rundle said the large amount of outdoor time is a huge incentive for detainees to want to be transferred to Camp 4, which is based on good behavior. "The increased incentive of the additional time out here, that's a big thing for detainees to be able to come out for that duration of time over the course of every single day of the week," he said.

Part of the rationale behind the living arrangements at Camp 4 is to rebuild detainees' social skills, "which might have been lost over time," Rundle said. Detainees are provided games -- chess, checkers and playing cards are the most requested items -- and are responsible for keeping their own living areas clean.

They also eat meals together within their cellblocks. Food-service personnel bring the food, always culturally sensitive, and detainees apportion it among themselves at mealtime. Padmore said a guard always supervises so "Detainee A is not getting three plates while Detainee B gets none."

Books and other reading material are available during periodic visits from a designated librarian. A security official explained Agatha Christie books in Arabic are very popular and that camp officials are working to get copies of the Harry Potter books in Arabic.

Also in Camp 4, detainees are issued a full roll of toilet paper each week. In other camps detainees have to ask guards to apportion toilet paper when they need it. Padmore said many people take toilet paper for granted and that the detainees in Camp 4 value having their own supplies.

Other privileges unique to Camp 4 include electric fans in the bays, ice water available around the clock, plastic tubs with lids for the detainees to store their personal items, and the white uniforms. White is a more culturally respected color and also serves as an incentive to detainees in other camps.

"It's almost like a status symbol," he said. "Detainees come past and see detainees from Camp 4 playing volleyball, playing soccer or in white uniforms. The hope is that other detainees will play by the rulebook and aspire to get to Camp 4 to get those privileges afforded to them."

Not too far away, in Camp 1, some detainees are just one step away from being moved to Camp 4. They wear tan uniforms and are afforded such comfort items as prayer rugs and canvas sneakers. Many of these detainees are being considered for transfer to Camp 4, Rundle said.

Detainees in Camp 1 are housed in individual cells with a toilet and sink in each cell. The have 30 minutes in one of two exercise yards at the end of each cellblock twice a week, Padmore explained. Showers are allowed in outdoor shower stalls after exercise periods.

There are 10 cellblocks with 48 cells each, but guards generally don't fully populate the cellblocks to minimize the guard-to-detainee ratio.

Movement into and within the camp is funneled through "sally ports," entrances and passageways with two gates. One gate must be closed before the next can be opened. Military police officers man each sally port from inside.

Each detainee gets basic items such as a "finger toothbrush" -- short and stubby so it can't be used as a weapon -- toothpaste, soap, shampoo, plastic flip flops, and cotton underwear, shorts, pants and a shirt.

Guards are not allowed to remove basic items, but comfort items can be taken away for behavior infractions. Comfort items can include such simple things as Styrofoam cups and caps to the water bottles.

Some seemingly innocent items are kept from detainees to prevent them from harassing guards. For instance, sport tops on water bottles can make it easier for detainees to shoot bodily fluids onto guards, Padmore said.

The most recently completed detention facility, Camp 5, is a state-of-the-art prison that many states would envy. The $16 million facility, completed in May 2004, is composed of four wings of 12 to 14 individual cells each.

The two-story maximum-security detention and interrogation facility can hold up to 100 people and houses Level 4 detainees and those deemed to be the most valuable intelligence assets. The camp is run from a raised, glass-enclosed centralized control center that sits in the middle of the facility, giving the MPs a clear line of sight into both stories of each wing. Army National Guard Maj. Todd Berger called the control room "the nerve center of the camp."

Berger, who in civilian life is a state trooper in New Jersey, explained that all detainee movement in Camp 5 is monitored and controlled through touch- screen computers in the control center.

Thick steel airlock doors clang shut with a hiss and an echo as guards move through the cellblocks. In Camp 5, media and other visitors are not permitted to tour occupied cellblocks. The modern facility features some cells equipped with overhanging sinks and grab bars on the toilets for detainees with a physical disability and 10-foot-by-20-foot outdoor exercise yards that detainees generally have access to for an hour every day.

Camp rules are posted in four languages -- Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, and Pashto -- in the exercise yards in each of the camps. Recently, the enclosed bulletin boards have also featured posters with information about the Afghan elections. "It talks about the fact that 10 million Afghanis freely elected their own government," Rundle said. "So it's a bit of news from home … for a chunk of the detainee population here."

Cultural sensitivity is consistently practiced in each of the camps. Respect for Islam is evident in many of the policies. For instance, in each cell in Camp 1, a Koran is stored hanging in a surgical mask from the cell wall. The purpose of the surgical mask is to hold the Muslim holy book "in a place of reverence," Padmore said.

In each cell block a painted arrow points toward Mecca, Saudi Arabia, so the detainees know which way to face during their daily prayers. During Ramadan, detainees were allowed to break their daily fast with water and dates at the appropriate time, and prayer calls are broadcast over loudspeakers five times a day.

Regardless of his assigned level or camp, no detainee is considered to be more or less dangerous than another. "I can't say who's dangerous and who's not," Padmore said. "I consider them all dangerous people because they're here."

The above quotes came from here: Link
The list just goes on and on. Here's what it's like in most prisons in the US.


Prison conditions
Research paper English III 13 March 03 Environment in the Slammer In the movies prisons are depicted two ways. They are either grossly overcrowded, or a clean utopia where criminals go for a break or vacation. Although the public does not want prison to be a pleasant experience, they also do not want it to be agonizing torture. Amnesty International has launched a worldwide campaign against the United States. They accuse America's prison system of "persistent and widespread patterns of human rights violations" (CNN.com). Amnesty International (AI) is a nonprofit organization dedicated to preservation of human rights. AI investigates human rights violations all over the world and brings their findings to the public. Of the twenty-five human rights violations in AI's report, they cited ten dealing with infractions in America's prison system (Beaudoin 14).
America's prisons are in a downward spiral. They were once a place for rehabilitation, a place where inmates were strongly encouraged to continue their education. But now due to the increased population and a stronger emphasis on punishment rather than rehabilitation, abuse of prisoners and a filthy living environment is beginning to be the norm (Bender 92).



Now I have backed up my assertions....can "you" do the same? I don't think you can.
Reply #54 from PolMach Forums Top
Vune, this post originated by someone who was pissed off about hipocrisy and the lack of due process for these detainees. You have slowly but surely turned it into an abuse scandal. Regardless of the links you have come up with, the biggest issue at Gitmo is the legal status of the detainees. But when you can't win the legal status arguement, you go for the let's investigate allegations of abuse card.


The beginning of finding out what is going on in the camp, and proof either way beyond doubt, is surely a start to an answer.


Actually, you as an accuser, have the sole burden of proof; or have we changed the legal system? You see the guards at Gitmo are innocent until proven guilty unless you want to lower yourself to the level of Bush. You liberals twist around in whatever direction you need to be in order to make the arguement of the hour. Wait a minute Vune, is your real identity John Kerry?

I will repeat myself here. I have no proof either way as to the conditions at Gitmo. My arguement all along has been kingbee's original statement that these guys have been denied due process. We CANNOT give these guys due process. We will not find them guilty of any crime other than hating Americans and wanting us dead. Some of us are just willing to be the ones to say that they must be held if for no other reason than to keep American lives safe. As Bush said, they are enemy combatants, they are guilty of no crime punishable under our justice system. Our justice system is designed for thieves, rapists, murderers, etc... It is not designed for a guy who has been taught by his church since birth that Americans are evil devils who must die. In fact he has been taught that if dies taking a few Americans with him, he will be met in paradise by his 70 virgins. These are people who believe that Allah has declared that we must die. I AM ASKING FOR AN ANSWER TO THAT PROBLEM VUNE!! I really don't give a crap about your bleeding heart liberal babble about tight handcuffs, loud music, beatings and Koran desecration and let's just go to court. HOW HOW HOW is our president to protect us from those sort of fanatics?

I am not questioning Bush's tactics because I have know better alternative. Does it make me sick to my stomach what is happening? YES!! Do I have a better solution? NO!! Therefore I won't cry about his methods until I can offer up a better solution. You and your damn day in court BS is enough to make me physically ill. The idea that you can put a fanatic in a courtroom where some ACLU hotshot will have him back on the street in five minutes is perposterous. That's your answer? Well your answer sucks. Your answer fails to address the real issure of how we protect ourselves from radical Muslims. YOU SIMPLY CAN'T ANSWER IT. You have no answer other than some BS "2 rights don't make a wrong" cliche.
Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top
Anyway, I have to head on, can't sit around here all day sparring with you right w(h)ingers!

I remain to be convinced. I hope that you are right and these guys are being given first rate care, having lives saved and living it up on extended vacation in sunny Cuba but I doubt it
Reply #57 from JoeUser Forums Top
Actually, you as an accuser, have the sole burden of proof; or have we changed the legal system?


I don't think I am the only accuser. I also don't think I'll be allowed the access to a high security establishment when even most of the prisoners lawers aren't
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top

was about to but then I reminded myself of what you said earlier

Note the 'If I claim......".  I never claimed.  I asked a question.  As you can see, it is not the question you wanted, but any answer you give either must be eye witness testimony, or the guilty proclaiming their innocence.  That is the trap you fell into.

Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
Note the 'If I claim......". I never claimed. I asked a question. As you can see, it is not the question you wanted, but any answer you give either must be eye witness testimony, or the guilty proclaiming their innocence. That is the trap you fell into.


The trap that you fell into was the one where you thought "i'll be really clever and basically call him a wife beater, then, when he takes offence and raises he issue I will cliam that I never claimed, so therefore he cannot claim that I claimed. Mwohahaha! .....I am clever"
Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top

Does detaining men in somewhere akin to a concentration camp under the juristicion of the US make sense to you?

You apparently have no conception of a concentration camp.  That is not only insulting to the american soldiers, but to the millions so condemned by Hitler.  You should be more careful of who you insult in the future.

Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top

The trap that you fell into was the one where you thought "i'll be really clever and basically call him a wife beater, then, when he takes offence and raises he issue I will cliam that I never claimed, so therefore he cannot claim that I claimed. Mwohahaha! .....I am clever"

Dont put words into my mouth.  I fell into no traps.  If asking a question is falling into a trap, you are in an inescapable one.

When arguing with liberals, one does not need to be clever. They always trip themselves up and then change the subject.

Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top
Consider it one hell of a restraining order that he is under. If a man gives someone a reason to believe that he wishes to harm them, can we arrest the guy? Can we put him in jail? No, we just create a restraining order keeping from contact with that person he wishes to harm (which I consider to be laughable, how many women have been killed by husbands that have restraining orders against them?). Just consider the guys at Gitmo and Mr. Padilla at the base in SC to currently be under one whopper of a restraining order.


Now I'm going to edit that quote so you can fully comprehend what you said.

Consider it one hell of a restraining order that he is under.(which I consider to be laughable)


To all of you who are asking for evidence that the detainees are being mistreated, why isn't the Red Cross allowed to do an inspection?
Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top

62 by Içonoçlast
Thursday, June 09, 2005





Consider it one hell of a restraining order that he is under. If a man gives someone a reason to believe that he wishes to harm them, can we arrest the guy? Can we put him in jail? No, we just create a restraining order keeping from contact with that person he wishes to harm (which I consider to be laughable, how many women have been killed by husbands that have restraining orders against them?). Just consider the guys at Gitmo and Mr. Padilla at the base in SC to currently be under one whopper of a restraining order.


Now I'm going to edit that quote so you can fully comprehend what you said.

Consider it one hell of a restraining order that he is under.(which I consider to be laughable)


To all of you who are asking for evidence that the detainees are being mistreated, why isn't the Red Cross allowed to do an inspection?



More BS!
Want to try again?


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The International Committee of the Red Cross has charged in confidential reports to the U.S. government that the U.S. military has intentionally used psychological and sometimes physical coercion "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The finding that the handling of prisoners detained and interrogated at Guantanamo allegedly amounted to torture came after a visit by a Red Cross inspection team that spent most of June there.
The USA and Torture
Doctors and Torture, an article by Robert Jay Lifton

Legalizing Torture


The team, which included experienced medical personnel, also asserted that some doctors and other medical workers at Guantanamo were participating in planning for interrogations, in what the report called "a flagrant violation of medical ethics."

The report alleges that doctors and medical personnel conveyed information about prisoners' mental health and vulnerabilities to their military interrogators.

That information, according to the report, was usually transmitted through a group called the Behavioral Science Consultation Team, or BSCT. That team, known informally as Biscuit, is composed of psychologists and psychological workers who advise the interrogators.

The U.S. government, which received the report in July, sharply rejected its charges, administration and military officials said.

The report was distributed to lawyers at the White House, Pentagon and State Department and to the commander of the detention facility at Guantanamo, Gen. Jay Hood.

The New York Times recently obtained a memorandum, based on the report, that quotes from it in detail and lists its major findings. It was the first time that the Red Cross, which has been conducting visits to Guantanamo since January 2002, asserted that the treatment of detainees, both physical and psychological, amounted to torture.

The report of the June visit said investigators had found a system devised to break the will of the prisoners at Guantanamo, who now number about 550, and make them wholly dependent on their interrogators through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions." Investigators said that the methods used were increasingly "more refined and repressive" than what the Red Cross learned about on previous visits.

The report also said that in addition to exposure to loud and persistent noise and music and to prolonged cold, detainees were subjected to "some beatings." The report did not say how many of the detainees were subjected to such treatment.

Asked about the accusations in the report, a Pentagon spokesman provided a statement saying, "The United States operates a safe, humane and professional detention operation at Guantanamo that is providing valuable information in the war on terrorism."


Internal debate

The conclusions by the inspection team, especially the findings involving alleged complicity in mistreatment by medical professionals, have provoked a stormy debate within the Red Cross committee. Some officials have argued that it should make its concerns public or at least aggressively confront the United States.
Why America Fights the ICC
The American government fights the International Criminal Court for reasons that are obvious:

The USA promotes the use of torture

The USA engages in torture

The USA has fought against the strenghtening of a treaty on torture, specifically because it would result in inspections of its prisons.


Why we pay attention to U.S. human rights issues

The report from the June visit said that the Red Cross team found a far greater incidence of mental illness produced by stress than did U.S. medical authorities, much of it caused by prolonged solitary confinement. It said the medical files of detainees were "literally open" to interrogators.

Last month, military guards, intelligence agents and others described in interviews with the New York Times a range of procedures that they said were highly abusive occurring over a long period, as well as rewards for prisoners who cooperated with interrogators.

The people who worked at Camp Delta, the main prison facility, said one regular procedure was making uncooperative prisoners strip to their underwear, having them sit in a chair while shackled hand and foot to a bolt in the floor, and forcing them to endure strobe lights and loud rock and rap music played through two close loudspeakers, while the air-conditioning was turned up to maximum levels.


Sexual taunting

Some accounts of techniques at Guantanamo have been easy to dismiss because they seemed so implausible. The most striking of the accusations, which have come mainly from a group of detainees released to their native Britain, has been that the military used prostitutes who made coarse comments and come-ons to taunt some prisoners who are Muslims.

The Red Cross report said that complaints about the practice of sexual taunting stopped in the last year.

Guantanamo officials have acknowledged that they have improved their techniques and that some earlier methods they tried proved to be ineffective, raising the possibility that the sexual taunting was an experiment that was abandoned.

Red Cross officials are able to visit prisoners at Guantanamo under the kind of arrangement the committee has made with governments for decades. In exchange for exclusive access to the prison camp and meetings with detainees, committee representatives have agreed to keep their findings confidential. The findings are shared only with the government that is detaining people.

The report said the Biscuit team met regularly with the medical staff to discuss the medical situations of detainees. At other times, interrogators sometimes went directly to members of the medical staff to learn about detainees' conditions, it said.


'False allegation'

The report said that such "apparent integration of access to medical care within the system of coercion" meant that inmates were not cooperating with doctors. Inmates learn from their interrogators that they have knowledge of their medical histories and the result is that the prisoners no longer trust the doctors.

Asked for a response, the Pentagon issued a statement saying, "The allegation that detainee medical files were used to harm detainees is false." The statement said the detainees were "enemy combatants who were fighting against U.S. and coalition forces."

"It's important to understand that when enemy combatants were first detained on the battlefield, they did not have any medical records in their possession," the statement continued. "The detainees had a wide range of pre-existing health issues including battlefield injuries."

The International Committee of the Red Cross, which is based in Geneva and is separate from the American Red Cross, was founded in 1863 as an independent, neutral organization intended to provide assistance for victims of war.
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
Vune, it isn't serving your argument to just make a joke and dodge the question, or answer a question with a question.

I asked you very plainly if you think Amnesty International would be considered a reliable, unbiased witness by any jury against the Bush administration. Witnesses with a vendetta aren't taken seriously, thank God. The 'gulag' statement and continual over-the-top grandstanding makes them suspect. They have shown themselves to be on a 'mission'.

So, you are claiming that accusations are proof, and those accusations are coming from sources that would almost certainly be considered very biased against the 'defendant'. You pretend you have proof, but all you offer are the hateful accusations of people on a campaign against the Bush administration.
Reply #65 from PolMach Forums Top
Now I'm going to edit that quote so you can fully comprehend what you said.


Editing people's quotes is one of the oldest liberal tricks. Icon, what kind of a moron would take my words edit them for all to see and try to convince people that is what I meant to say?

Edit my quotes all you want but you and Vune will NEVER be able to give a viable alternative to Bush's war on terror. You can only sling mud and disagree with him.
Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top
kingbee,

The problem I had with the "gulag" statement was that it was a subjective judgement, horribly uncharacteristic for Amnesty International. Have the actions at Guantanamo Bay been somewhat questionable? Probably. Do they compare with a forced labor camp where the Soviet Union sent its dissident CITIZENS? Definitely not.

This does not in any way condone or support the actions at Gitmo, mind you. I have not had a chance to dissect the AI 2004 report as of yet, but their previous reports have been well constructed and full of quality objective analysis. If the bulk of this report differs from that pattern, I will be surprised.

AI has generally been a nonpartisan watchdog group, and we can thank them for much of their work, INCLUDING their detailing the actions of Saddam Hussein upon which much of the justifications for our military actions were based. Equally valuable were the reports on the actions of Taliban led Afghanistan.

I disagree with the use of the word "gulag". While I believe the statement was meant to show the level of international disgust that Gitmo has drawn (comparing THAT, rather than the actions of our troops, with "gulag"), it is an unreasonable comparison and an overreach that does not belong in their report.
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top
Editing people's quotes is one of the oldest liberal tricks.


Bwahahahahaa...why, I can remember my great grandfather complaining about the nasty liberals going around editing his quotes, too.
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top
Maybe I might pay a little attention to a.i. and there report on gitmo, IF one just one member of a.i. stepped foot in gitmo and saw something with there own eyes instead of relying on the reports and complaints of the terrorist themselves.

I do not trust government much kingbee, but trust the terrorist even less.
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top
Editing people's quotes is one of the oldest liberal tricks. Icon, what kind of a moron would take my words edit them for all to see and try to convince people that is what I meant to say?


You made a connection between the detainees' status and someone under a restraining order, then you said the restraining order is laughable. It's not as if I didn't include your original statement.
Reply #70 from PolMach Forums Top
Frankly I don't give a damn about the treatment crap, I'm still waiting on one of you bleeding hearts to come up with a plan for our safety from radical Muslims.

I would also like a detailed description of the techniques that you would use to interrogate and extract information from the same radical Muslims.

Again, answers, not smug comments. Criticize Bush all you want, at least he's got the balls to do what you guys obviously have nightmares about. Seriously, if you bleeding hearts ran the country, every American might as well walk around with a bullseye on their back. The terrorists would decimate us all and hide behind their ACLU lawyers claiming it was justified because we ripped their Koran or some other lame ass bleeding heart excuse.
Reply #71 from JoeUser Forums Top
about what tex? heh heh heh


Well, from what I remember him telling me, the liberals were always taking his quotes about the Scopes Monkey Trial and posting them out of context. It really infuriated him.

He warned me to never trust a liberal when it comes to posting quotes. I guess he was right.
Reply #72 from JoeUser Forums Top
I would also like a detailed description of the techniques that you would use to interrogate and extract information from the same radical Muslims.


Are you aware that we have actual guidelines for what methods are appropriate (and successful) and which ones are not? There's a great little interactive online that covers these, and if I weren't so lazy, I'd find it for you.

Perhaps you can google it.
Reply #73 from PolMach Forums Top
You made a connection between the detainees' status and someone under a restraining order, then you said the restraining order is laughable. It's not as if I didn't include your original statement


My reference to restraining orders being laughable was in the context of a typical restraining order issued under our justice system. You are mincing words because you cannot come up with a better alternative to merely detaining these radical Muslims. You are not jumping on the fact that I admitted in the same post that they are essentially unconvictable under our justice system. You are not jumping on the fact that yes, they are being held under what would be considered an illegal status and condition. No all you can do is edit my words to give your point of view. If you found my analogy lacking, congratulations.

Again, no liberal will take up my challenge. Come up with an alternative to Gitmo. I have conceded that the courts and our justice system is not designed for this sort of individual. They have commited no crime, but rest assured they will. So what do we do? Do we stand by our principles and wait until they have committed a punishable crime under our justice system? Again, I am conceding the fact that an ACLU pig would have one of these guys on the streets in a matter of minutes in our justice system. So please kngbee, please Vune, please icon, quit the criticisms of Bush and my analogies and give me an alternative to Bush's methods.

Think about it, here's your chance to add to the liberal American roll call if you can only show me that there is a better plan out there than the current administration's.
Reply #75 from PolMach Forums Top
Wahine,

I am going to type real slow so maybe you will understand. No smug comments, a real answer is what I am looking for. I don't care about the "appropriate" guidelines. Once again, these people have been taught from birth, by their church, that we are all evil (even your bleeding heart) and we should all die. These people are willing to blow themselves up as long as they take a few Americans with them so that they get their 70 virgins in paradise. These people are not a bunch of patriotic men paid by their government to kill enemy soldiers. These men kill men, women, children, babies. These men did not come here and target just military installations; no they hit two buildings with the express purpose of killing as many American CITIZENS as humanly possible. Yes, before you reply, I don't need to be reminded that they also went for the pentagon and the white house. We are not interrogating a man simply wanted for murder. We are interrogating people who may just have the information that could save thousands of lives. Look at these guys in California, under the right amount of "stress" shall we say, they might could give us the location of the terrorist training camp that they recently visited so we could put it out of business.

Considering what we are up against with these people, I want YOUR answer, I don't want to google and find the bleeding heart guide to "asking a radical Muslim to please tell me where I can find his fellow terrorist buddies". I want you, Mr. intellectual liberal to tell me how we should get information out of these guys that will lead us to their buddies out there plotting how to kill us and get to heaven. Let's say that you knew that you could save as many lives as were lost in the trade center attacks if you could only get some terrorist to give you the info; would you honestly stick to your principles and allow their deaths? My guess is unfortunately yes you would.