Sorry, that was an aside for our economic discussion.

Cheers

Greatest US president poll

Date unknown

Interesting that Clinton scores higher than dubya. Score one for the democrats.

Cheers

Carter was a suprise too!! And Dubya Sr being so low. weird.

Hardcore liberals and Greens *love* Carter. Bush the First surprises you? Anyone who would even think about picking him would pick Reagan.

Pardon my ignorance, but what did JFK do that was so great, besides get killed?

The whole moon thing, civil rights started under him, etc.

Cheers

Don't forget defusing the Cuban Missile Crisis. (And founding the Peace Corps! )

Refuting the phony claims spammed here:

"FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did."

Japan certainly did attack the United States on December 7, 1941 — then, four days later, Germany declared war on the United States.

(One citation.) (A bunch more.)

The United States responded by declaring war against Germany, and that declaration even mentions Germany's declaration of war:

Congressional Declaration of War on Germany, December 11, 1941:Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States.

But you say FDR was responsible for this? He made poor Japan and Germany declare war against the United States first, helpless victims of his control?

"Truman finished that war and started one in Korea"

Yet history reports that the North Koreans started it on June 25, 1950, when they launched a surprise attack on South Korea, even taking Seoul.

"North Korea never attacked us."

All those American soldiers who died defending South Korea just committed suicide, right? Because the poor innocent North Koreans never attacked them!

"John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962."

Do I really have to explain how utterly false this claim is?

Kennedy had nothing to do with starting the Vietnam conflict.

The Pentagon records the Vietnam War's starting date as November 1, 1955.

Eisenhower sent US military there, before Kennedy became President.

Kennedy was elected in 1960, and actually took office in January 1961.

Whenever you get around to actually studying history, or even (shock!) visiting the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC, look up the names of Dale Buis and Chester Ovnand, who were killed by Viet Cong guerrillas on July 8, 1959, in Bien Hoa, Quang Tri province, South Vietnam.

(Look on the Wall at Panel 1-E, Row 1; they're the first names listed.)

Though I must admit there's some remarkable historical ignorance out there. The website for Shuttle commander Eileen Collins has her saying, as part of her recollections of growing up, "Also, of course, the Vietnam War started in the late '60s."

So I suppose if you were just growing up in the 1960s, and only became aware of the Vietnam War then, you might think that's when it started.

"Vietnam never attacked us."

Oh no, certainly not, Buis and Ovnand simply choked on their popcorn?!.

Not to mention all the tailgate-party drinking that soldiers succumbed to during the Siege of Khe Sanh, where Max Cleland lost three limbs — as Ann Coulter claims he went there to "have a few beers with friends"?! (Some beer... Cleland was awarded the Silver Star for valor in action there.)

And all the other drinking deaths during a certain Tet celebration?!....

"Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent"

I notice you're not mentioning NATO. It's NATO that went in there.

"He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan..."

I'm happy to say that Richard Clarke debunked this thoroughly in his book "Against All Enemies". There's a lot of history you just don't know.

Sudan did not offer Osama to the US. The US would have accepted him.

"... and did nothing."

What he did against Osama got him accused by Republicans of "wagging the dog".

It was the Republicans who didn't think Osama was a real threat, which is why they did nothing about him once they got the Presidency.

"Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions."

Yes, and Clinton managed to block many of those attacks, but you didn't know that either, did you?

Foreign terrorist attacks averted by the Clinton administration:

"Attempts to blow up the Holland tunnel, the Los Angeles airport, to blow up planes flying to the Philippines, an attempt on the Pope's life, an attempt to blow up the biggest hotel in Jordan over the Millennium weekend, to destroy a Christian site in the Holy Land, to plant bombs in cities in the Northwest and the Northeast, and many others."— Clinton, 11/07/01

Also see NARA, 1998

The 1995 report "US Initiatives Against International Organized Crime" included:

Arrested and brought back to the U.S. to stand trial terrorists hiding in Nigeria, Pakistan, the Philippines, Jordan, and Egypt.Made swift arrests following both of the major terrorist incidents that have taken place in the U.S. (World Trade Center and Oklahoma City).Broken up two major attacks on the U.S. that were about to take place, before they could happen (New York: UN and Holland tunnel; Manila: US flag 747s)

As CNN reported :

In the 1995 terrorism trial over a failed plot to blow up five New York City landmarks, the jury deliberated seven days before returning guilty verdicts against Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and nine others.The trial lasted eight months as evidence was presented about the plot targeting the U.N. General Assembly building, the New York FBI building, the Lincoln Tunnel, the Holland Tunnel and the George Washington Bridge.

Also see this CNN report.

The International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism details, among other arrests, in an article from 09/17/01:

The planner of the WTC operation, the Palestinian Ramzi Youssef, escaped arrest in 1993 and in 1994 devised a plot to plant bombs abroad twelve U.S. airliners operating in the Far East. In a trial run, the group exploded a bomb aboard a Philippine airliner, killing one passenger. These plans were discovered when Youssef flew to the Philippines, where he prepared the assassination of the Pope. Youssef was later caught and extradited from Pakistan to the U.S. where he was sentenced to life in prison. ...In December 1999, an Algerian, Ahmed Ressam was arrested while trying to smuggle explosives and detonators into the U.S. from Canada, and a plot to bomb the Los Angeles airport was foiled. Ressam's arrest led to the discovery of more Algerian terrorists and their supporters: Abdelmajid Dahoumane, indicted along with Ressam; Mokhtar Haouari, an Algerian accused of providing money and support for the attack on the airport; Hamid Aich, an Algerian arrested briefly in Ireland, then released; Mohambedou Ould Slahi, a Mauritanian who might link the Algerians directly to bin Laden.

"In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has"

... still not caught Osama bin Laden...

"liberated two countries,"

Iraq is "liberated"? The end of the fighting hasn't hit the news yet.

But what does that have to do with terrorists attacking us?

"We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11."— George W. Bush, September 17, 2003.

After Pearl Harbor, should FDR have attacked Jamaica or the Bahamas, and then claimed it was an effective response to the Pearl Harbor attack?

The author of this delusionary tripe doesn't even live in the real world....

Bush is THE worst president in our history. What does cutting taxes for the richest one percent do to help the economy. We're the laughing stock of the world. Watch his campaign ads, all he says is " A great president during times of trouble". That is what were going to have to here from now to november. Every single thing he does is just wrong. I heard someone in this post earlier that said they were tired of the liberals "arrogance" Well the republicans are the ones that don't look at what's in front of them, they just defend themselves with nothing. Does anyone know about Bush's environmental record, well it's PROVEN the worst we have ever had, by far. I'm not a big fan of Kerry, but I, nor the rest of the world, can take another four years of him.

Raven- great comment, and the last line is something I've noticed about so many. I keep wanting to ask "what world do you live in?"

Lets all agree Iraq had little to do with terror. Lets all remember though that both parties voted for the war......and now one of them has decided that they've always been against it. I'm sick of war arguments, because people do have good arguments both ways....I think the anti-war people who actually have an argument probably have a better argument than pro-war people. I'm not pro-war because of WMD's(even though I always have to put this in that I still believe they were there up until near to the war....they still might be there buried, not hard to do) I'm pro-war because once we can get through messes like this week, the humanitarian benefits to the country will be worth it.

I'm glad I finally got a reason why Bush is the worst president ever....he has an accent!!!! Good job PoetPhilosopher you convinced me. I hate the man now.

Economic downturn was because of the internet bubble bursting, if you think otherwise, you seem to forget how big that was. On unemployment....I thought I heard somewhere that unemployment is actually below what it was through most of the 90's? I may be wrong.

FDR didn't lead us into world war II, Japan attacked so we fought back, the reason that we got involved in the Europe side of the war is because Hitler and the nazis were countries away from taking Europe. Now imagine how wonderful the world would be if the US would have stayed out of world war II?

Kennedy DID NOT start the vietnam fiasco, it was a stupid attempt from greedy bastards in power that wanted to change a country's way of life for a profit. (HUH? whrere have a heard of a similar case recently?) Kennedy got assassinated because of this. He didn't want part of vietnam and/or of the bay of pigs fiasco.

IS ENTIRELY TOO EARLY TO DECIDE IF BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY. HOWEVER, I HAVE NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT HE IS THE DUMBEST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY. LET'S NOT FORGET THAT MORE SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS HAVE DIED AFTER THE IDIOT TOLD THE WORLD THAT "MAJOR COMBAT IN IRAQ HAD STOPPED" THE COUNTRY IS UP TO ITS EYEBALLS IN DEFICIT AND THE IDIOT IS ALREADY ASKING CONGRESS FOR MORE TRILLIONS FOR WEAPONS. IF HE DOES NOT WANT TO GO DOWN AS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY HE NEEDS TO LET THAT IRAQ SHIT GO AND CONCENTRATE IN US. CONCENTRATE IN THE POOR AND NEEDY IN OUR GREAT COUNTRY. I THINK THAT EVERY PRESIDENT SHOULD FOLLOW THE SAME FOREIGN POLICY: IF THEY WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER, FUCK THEM. AS LONG AS THEY DON'T BRING THAT SHIT AROUND US.

Reply #3 By: BulbousHead - 2/15/2004 2:14:51 AM 1. If the idea of waging war against Nazi Germany leaves a bad taste in your mouth (and I think you're alone on that one), then think of it as Roosevelt "liberating France." (Remember: if you call it "liberating a country," you can do whatever you want!) Germany and Italy declared war on us as soon as we declared war on their ally, Japan. If you think the war in Europe was somehow not necessary or otherwise avoidable, you're an idiot. 2. Nobody today likes the Vietnam War. 3. Bush went to war in Iraq in 2003. Iraq never attacked us. Phony intelligence was used to justify the war. No weapons of mass destruction have been found. And how many servicemen and women have died since Bush lied to us and said that the fighting was over?

WRONG! You like all the rest forget THEY attacked us. By "international law" their shooting at our naval and airforce places enforcing a *UN approved* no-fly zone is considered an attack by anyones book. Except maybe yours?

5. Our relations with the entire world (except for the perpetually in-our-pocket United Kingdom) have been severely strained completely unnecessarily. We have all but strangled the purpose of the United Nations.

The UN are a "bunch" of crooks that need to go. (oil for food anyone?)

6. Hello? Massive unemployment? Not *everything* is about terrorism, y'know.

Wrong again. 5.2 is what it is now and that is lower than Slick Willie ever had.

Reply #6 By: john weisdorn (Anonymous) - 2/15/2004 5:43:10 AM it sounds like you need a history lesson or 2.....!do you even know why world war 2 started, you don't.if you are going to contraindict somebody you should know the facts.......why is the american economy going down and down.....becouse people like bush, and the rich are selfish , and could care less about you and me, so it 's all about the dollar, which i may add is going to be devalued in the near future, unless, we stop screwing up .under the democrats the usa is better off. oust george w. bush... www.citizen.org/

They may need a history lesson, but you need one in economics. Unemployment DOWN, home ownership UP, Stock market UP, prime interest rate DOWN. What more do you want?

> John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never > > attacked us. > > Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives > > were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

nope Ike got the united states involved way before kennedy.... kennedy was looking to withdraw american troops in 1963 before he was murdered by oswald {I think johnson and the mic} then johnson escalated the conflict. I hate the word conflict btw was full out war.

Reply #6 By: john weisdorn (Anonymous) - 2/15/2004 5:43:10 AM it sounds like you need a history lesson or 2.....!do you even know why world war 2 started, you don't.if you are going to contraindict somebody you should know the facts.......why is the american economy going down and down.....becouse people like bush, and the rich are selfish , and could care less about you and me, so it 's all about the dollar, which i may add is going to be devalued in the near future, unless, we stop screwing up .under the democrats the usa is better off. oust george w. bush... www.citizen.org/

last unemployment rate is 5.2% better than any other point in history, included the much touted clinton era.

The first large scale scale invasion of American troops in World War II was in French North Africa. The French had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. So by some people's logic, it must have been "wrong". After 9/11, Iraq became a necessary target in the war on Terror. I always find it amusing when someone claims that Bush was the worst President or even a bad President. Look at what Poet says above. "Yes, undeniably." And why? No reason given. It's "undeniable". This is one reason I have so little respect for the opinions of the left. The arrogance. How could anyone, for instance, say that GW Bush was worse than say Jimmy Carter? Or how about LBJ? Carter's policies helped create a serious recession. His cuts to the military made the US unable to carry out even basic operations. His terrible foreign policy decisions made the world more dangerous. That doesn't mean I think GW Bush is a great President. He's not. He, like Clinton, will likely go down as a middle of the road Presiden

The entire article is very skewed. Bush is far from the worst President, Buchanan who simply pushed all the descisions on his sucessor, but IMO he has not been a good President either. He is perhaps the worst diplomat in US history taking us from the whole world being behind us after 9/11 to the whole world being against us over Iraq.
While the first actions were against the French, these were French who were allied with the Germans. We did all we could to avoid fight with them and for the most part suceeded.
The US first became involved in Vietnam in 1957 under the Eisenhower administration, not in '62 under Kennedy. Kennedy was forced by right wing pressure that he was soft on communism. Does anyone here really believe that had Nixon won in '60 that our involvement in Vietnam would have ended? More likely we would have escalated to Johnson type numbers earlier. Despite running on a pledge to back us out of Vietnam in the '68 election, he escalated the war to bombing in North Vietnam and commiting troops to Cambodia.
Carter's policies didn't start a recession. The country was already in recession because of the oil embargo. In fact the recession started in the later days of the Nixon administration, or do you forget his plan to freeze prices and wages because of excessive inflation. I do find it a bit extrordinary that inflation magically dropped by 5% the first month Reagan was in office. Perhaps it was kept artificially high to elect a President who was friendly to big business.
I always find it amazing when the right begins their arguments for the war in Iraq with 9/11. The two have no connection. Even the administration would have to grudgingly admit that. But the belief that the two were connected was part of the reason he was reelected.

Also, does anybody who feels that Bush is one of the worst Presidents think he's worse than Andrew Jackson? I'm just curious.

Oh, no you didn't! Of course he's worse than Andrew Jackson! It's not that I think Bush is bad (though I don't think he's that great) but that I think Jackson was a near great president.

I love when someone copies/pastes these mass emails. It's a WONDERFUL substitute for THINKING!

Also, does anybody who feels that Bush is one of the worst Presidents think he's worse than Andrew Jackson? I'm just curious.

I'm kinda guessing you meant Andrew JOHNSON, not JACKSON (otherwise, would have a hard time seeing how you would rate Ol' Hickory as one of the worst).

I really don't agree that Bush is the worst president in history, time will see that out after his tenure is complete. That said, I don't care for the majority of his policies which can be debated as to whether they have produced more harm then good.

According to the conservative website RealClearPolitics, the majority of Americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls.html