The price we pay

One idiots opinion

from JoeUser Forums
Howdy folks,

I have been following Dabe's article "The Confederate Flag" recently. Rarely do i ever feel the need to expand on someones thread. I figure it's not my place to run with or against the author's writings. But, as usual the ever touchy subject of racism has turned ugly. I just wanted to say one thing to everybody on both sides.....ok?

You don't have to like the other person or their arguement. But, you have to accept the fact they have differing opinions. It's part of the game.

On a personal level, i find the rebel flag offensive and believe that it should be relegated to the trash heap of history along with the Nazi flag. It represents a defeated enemy of the United States of America. I find it ironic that those who fly the rebel colors also proudly wrap themselves in the stars and stripes. I also find it hypocritical, and disrespectful to a vast majority of americans as well.

But hey, I'm just one person! I know for a fact that there's millions of people who will vehemently attack me for my beliefs.

That's the price we pay for freedom of speech.

I'm with you on the issue Dabe. But i have to say that it's private citizen's right to fly any flag they want. Even if it does represent an ugly and tragic past.

Thanks for reading,
thatoneguyinslc

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19,890 views 43 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Very nice piece (I said piece) and well worded. I didn't see the article that inspired this, but from what you've written here, it sounds as if it's turned real ugly and I usually try to avoid posts like that.

I agree with you completely. I also find the flag distasteful, at best. I'm struggling with how to word how I feel, but simply put, American citizens stood beneath that flag and killed other American citizens in a war that should never have been fought. And that's just to start.

But, I agree also, that other peoples' opinions are just as valid as mine. I may not agree, but it's their right to believe as they do and my right to disagree. Just as it's my right to speak my opinion and be disagreed with.

Thanks!
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm with you on the issue Dabe.


Dabe does not present issues... she presents tyrades of opinions... then refuses to listen to another one.. even if its on her side.Tp present an issues is to do just that...but to defent that issue you need an open mind and the ability to communicate. Dabe does not have that.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dabe does not present issues... she presents tyrades of opinions... then refuses to listen to another one.. even if its on her side.Tp present an issues is to do just that...but to defent that issue you need an open mind and the ability to communicate. Dabe does not have that.


Excuse me mano, but I expressed my opinion, then got vilified for it. I am so hated here, that all I do is post anything, and it's called a diatribe. I posted my feelings about the racism associated with the confederate flag. People didn't just post their opinions. It veered into a "let's hate dabe" frenzy. I respond accordingly.

Besides, have you read any of moderateman's diatribes lately. Those are more than opinions; they are tirades of hateful diatribes, by all definitions of these terms. I find it interesting that he can post his venom, and get all these sloppy back-slapping affirmations. I find it interesting that someone can use the confederate flag as an avatar, and get all these same back-slapping jingos come to his defense, with these amazing rationalizations and denials of its symbology. It's shameful, at best. I find it amazing that someone with the senses you have about our world can join these jingo hatefests. Mano, you should take a long hard look at who you're selling out when you respond about my "diatribes". In my opinion, you're selling out your own concience in order to have these jingos love you. Think about that, instead of immediately attacking me, the messenger.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Shaking head)

I think i understand how Dabe feels. I've been in the same boat before. You may not like what she has to say. Nobody says you have to like what anybody says. Including those who oppose her here on JU.
But everybody is entitled to their opinions. If you dont like what someone is saying...Don't read and/or comment on their posts! That goes both ways too. If you don't like what Mod says, Don't read his posts either!

C'mon folks, We are adults here.

And thanks Chip.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I used to have a little fun with the "The South Will Rise Again" folks I served with in the Army. I'd laugh and say...

"Well, how does it feel to have taken an oath that says that if the South does try to rise again, you'll do everything in you power to beat it right back down?" ;~D

For the record Dabe, I doubt I've agreed with much you've ever said, and I've probably thrown a few keyboard cracks your way, but I can honestly say that I've never hated you.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

YOur points are well taken.  But the ones who made that flag a symbol of racism, was not the southern bigots, it was the northern Republicans (Read NJ's series).  And that stereotype is perpetuated to this day.

No one is going to change what the flag represents to some, but to others that flag represents their heritage.  A heritage not based upon hate or bigotry, but a kinder simpler time.  You may not agree with that assessment, but that is the truth.  It is no wonder they call it the Ante-Bellum south, for the war drastically changed a way of lilfe, and I am not talking about the slavery aspect of it.

The problem with Dabe's article is that she branded everyone who owns or holds that flag dear as a bigot and racist.  And that is just a bigotted and racist statement with no bearing on the truth.

You may not like it, I may not like it, but many southerners do for the reason it is a part of history, their history.  As this is America, it is not against the law to own the flag, or even to display it.  And it is not against the law to hate it.

But to label everyone a racist because of it is stupid and ignorant.  And that is what got her into trouble.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
In the end Guy, it's not Dabe who made that flag a symbol of hatred and bigotism. It was the folks who flew it during a racist and cruel period of our countries history. To blame it on the north is inacurate. To say that everyone who likes the rebel flag is a devout follower of those principles is also inacurate.

Racism will always dog those who fly it. It represents racism to a great many americans. Not just black folks. It also represents a group of people who are proud to be from the south who aren't racists. It's a double edged sword at best.

Just like anything else in life. It's all about how you view it.

Ted,

That's pretty funny, and sad at the same time. Insightful too! You get a cookie man!
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

In the end Guy, it's not Dabe who made that flag a symbol of hatred and bigotism. It was the folks who flew it during a racist and cruel period of our countries history. To blame it on the north is inacurate. To say that everyone who likes the rebel flag is a devout follower of those principles is also inacurate.

The problem here is the use of the absolutes. 

As Dabe did.  That is why she was BBQed.  Not for stating her opinion, but for calling everyone (even those she never has or will meet) a racist bigot.

I will not debate who made it a symbol of hate, as I take it that is not the point of your article and we can debate that at another time.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Absolutes? I left the door wide open! Sheesh!
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

The problem here is your use of the absolutes. I stated none. You cannot use absolutes to make a point because there are always exceptions, and you just did.

Absolutes? I left the door wide open! Sheesh!

YOu are correct, and I appologize.  I misread your previous statement.  I left that part above, but corrected the original post.

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks Guy. Appreciate it!
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am from the south. I grew up in rural Alabama in the late 70's. I have seen a burning cross first hand. I lived in Tennessee for a while. I have seen the KKK march in Pulaski, TN. I have seen many examples of racism up close and personal. These are terrible symbols of hatred. I saw the cross burn in the yard of my 4th grade teacher because she offered aid to a young black girl and it offended the hateful members of the KKK.

I am from the south. I grew up in rural Alabama in the late 70's. I have seen the beautiful anit-bellum homes that line Government St. in Mobile, AL. I have seen the way the Azaleas bloom in the fall and the beauty it brings. I lived in Tennessee for a while. I have seen the majesty of the Great Smokey Mountains. I have seen the power and glory of the Mighty Mississippi. These are wonderful symbols of my heritage and upbringing.

I have seen the flag in question flown in both of these worlds. I have also seen and been victim to racial hatred. I was held at gun point because seven black guys wanted to scare the little white boy.

I don't let that one experience of hatred dictate my impression of every black person I meet and I will not let what some people choose to use a symbol of my heritage for cloud what it means to me. To me this is a symbol of my heritage. Don't let it dictate your impression of me without getting to know me first.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Excuse me mano, but I expressed my opinion, then got vilified for it. I am so hated here, that all I do is post anything, and it's called a diatribe. I posted my feelings about the racism associated with the confederate flag. People didn't just post their opinions. It veered into a "let's hate dabe" frenzy. I respond accordingly.


No.... you were villified for the "hate and contempt" that *you* put in the post. Stating ones opinions are well and good. But there was never any need for the hate you put in it. And "that" is why people respond the way they do to your posts. Because the hate shows up in each and every post.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
I fly the rampant lion (Scottish flag). Why do I do it? Because I have sworn allegiance to Scotland...NO! Because my HERITAGE is Scottish, and it's a heritage I am proud of.

I don't fly the confederate flag, but because it's the flag of a foreign nation, NOT because it represents HATE (if you think it does, a little more research is in order), NOT because it represente the Klan (which has been FAR more powerful in NORTHERN states such as Indiana and Ohio than in the south).

I have seen racism in both the north and the south. There's a substantial difference, and, frankly, the NORTHERN racism concerns me far more than southern racism ever did.

But back to topic, let's "clean out our own backyard first", so to speak and encourage black youths to stop using the "N word" as a badge of honor, as so many still do. That bugs me worse than seeing a confederate flag.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

As a social experiment, (and to help prove his point) he titled it "No doubt about it, White People ARE the Master Race.) The body of the article had nothing to do with racism itself, the headline was a trick to get us to click, and nothing more.

Thanks for the link.  I had purposefully skipped that one cause I thought it was just what Shovel was describing. 

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

That's because you don't know Shovel! He writes wonderful, masculine adventure tales, poignant personal musings, and really insightful pieces about life and love and women and harleys and women and beer and women and even god sometimes.

I do read most of his stuff, and yes, thought that was very atypical.  Until I did actually read it.

I dont recall reading Dylan.  I hope she is not gone, as I would like to check her out.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am a firm believer in the "reap what you sow" philosophy. My purpose in writing this article was not to choose sides. I do hold the same opinion as dabe when it comes down to it. But the reason i wrote it was to point out that neither side in this issue was gaining any ground.

I do need to point out one thing Whip. (you're not gonna like it, but i say it in the vein of "constructive criticism" so don't hate me for it.) I have seen you on many occassions react in a similar manner when challenged on an issue. That's not to say it's right or wrong. Not my place to judge. But because of this, i find it very hard to believe what you are saying holds water when it comes to wether or not Dabe is on a rantful diatribe.

I support her right to voice her opinion. Much like i support Miler's opinion. I don't agree with it at all, or some of Dabe's methods.

But that's the price we pay. Y'all need to accept it and get over this. Really!
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
I missed her comment on Shovel's article. I'll read it later.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thatoneguy--Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the confederate flag. I often question the motives of people who fly it--but have found that, like Dr. Guy and others have pointed out, many are flying it as a representation of the past glory of the South--granted slavery plays a part in this, but racial superiority is not what they are "celebrating."

That said, my own disdain for the flag should not prevent someone else from flying it. I may not like it, but I do not have the right to tell someone that they can not fly it. It is the same with flag burning--it might make me sick/offended/hurt to see it, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be allowed.

I fly the rampant lion (Scottish flag). Why do I do it? Because I have sworn allegiance to Scotland...NO! Because my HERITAGE is Scottish, and it's a heritage I am proud of.

I don't fly the confederate flag, but because it's the flag of a foreign nation


I'm confused--are you saying that the flag of Scotland is not the flag of a sovereign nation, and the confederate flag is? I think I missed something in reading that. But, since I enjoy useless trivia--here is some on the Rampant Lion. The Rampant Lion is actually the royal flag of Scotland (the St. Andrew's cross being the more traditional flag--also believed to be the oldest national flag of any country). The Rampant Lion should, strictly speaking, be used by Queen Elizabeth (or monarch in general) in her official capacity as the Queen of Scotland. In 1934, King George V signed a Royal Warrant declaring that the flying of the Rampant Lion was a "mark of loyalty" to the crown.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
shades,

Chalk that statement up to the "poorly worded" file. The confederate flag represents a foreign nation with which 1) I do not identify, and which, as a foreign nation, declared open and active war on my country. While Scotland's sons provided conscripts for Britain in the revolution, they were not a sovereign nation at the time, but subjects of the British Empire.

Apologies for the poor verbiage.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

While Scotland's sons provided conscripts for Britain in the revolution, they were not a sovereign nation at the time, but subjects of the British Empire.

They were the vassals of a sovereign nation that declared war on the US.  Small difference.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
shades,

Chalk that statement up to the "poorly worded" file.


I thought I wasn't getting it, but wanted to empty my brain of that useless information on Scottish flags anyway! Hope you don't mind!
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
The confederate flag represents a foreign nation with which 1) I do not identify, and which, as a foreign nation, declared open and active war on my country

Actually the Confederate States simply seceded from the Union. The Union declared war on them in response.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
On a personal level, i find the rebel flag offensive and believe that it should be relegated to the trash heap of history along with the Nazi flag.


To compare the Confederate flag to the nazi one is an insult & a lie. You owe your fellow Americans an apology.

Contrary to popular lie, the Confederate flag represents a proud people fighting for their way of life.

To say that the Confederate flag represents slavery & racism, you must also say that the Union flag also represents slavery & racism. Both sides had slave owners & both sides had racists. The Civil war was not fought over slavery, the Union was not so altruistic. It was fought over two conflicting ways of life, nothing more. And as in any war there must be a winner & a loser. Only after the war start did the Union used the issue of slavery, & it was used as a political tool & a leverage.

To say all Confederates are white racists & support slavery (then & now) is a lie. Most are not racists & hate racism. To be honest there are racist Confederates, but there are racists of all types; white, black, north & south. Nobody has a monopoly on it. During the war the bulk of the soldiers didn't own slaves & the majority of them didn't believe in it. Now-a-days, I think most Confederates would be appalled if they ever heard someone say they wanted to own another person. I know I would be & I wouldn't be very polite in my response. I think if people take a close look at their family tree they will find blacks, whites & indians somewhere in there. I know when I joined the military I had to be a minority, in my area, to get in. No whites were allowed. Wasn't a problem for me to get in.

I'm struggling with how to word how I feel, but simply put, American citizens stood beneath that flag and killed other American citizens in a war that should never have been fought.


And what about the flag of the Union? You must also hate it as well. It represents the exact same thing. In fact there is not one flag on this planet that hasn't had another's blood on it.


War is a history lesson of what will happen when 2 sides cannot sit down, be adults & talk to work out their differences.