Draginol Draginol

Why I support inheritence taxation

Why I support inheritence taxation

Inherited wealth and complacency

My wife and I are looking for lake front property up near Higgins Lake Michigan. There's not much lake front property now.  Not surprising given the law of supply and demand.  But the realtor told me something telling -- the reason there's not much land available is due to multi-generational inheritence.  That is, 150 years ago people bought land up there and simply hand it down from generation to generation.  Family land. How can that be bad?

At first glance, such generational property ownership might sound like a good thing.  And I think it is good -- to a point.  But on the other hand, as a society, how fair is this? When talking about limited resources, such as water front property, how "fair" is it that one family gets to live on the beech simply because their great great grandfather bought the property a century or more ago?

Or more often, ancestors who squatted on the land.  I am a strong believer in things being kept in the family. But I am also an opponent to concentrated unearned wealth.  Sometimes the contradiction becomes an issue.  At some point, a society has to make some tough decisions.  If we want an upwardly mobile system, then there has to be a mechanism in which generations can't simply inherit wealth and sit back and do nothing generation after generation. 

The lake front example is just that -- an example of such stagnation.  Without inheritence taxes, the natural resources of society really comes back to being a "whose ancestors got there first"?  I tend to think that our society should give everyone an equal shot. 

I don't think the government should be confiscating land from people.  However, I do think that inherited wealth should be treated as any other type of income.  Like most people, the money that puts food on the table comes from my labor.  The income from that labor is then taxed.

When someone inherits money from a friend or relative, it's still income. In fact, it's more than income, it's unearned income.  I don't see why it shouldn't be taxed at the same levels as regular income.  This has all kinds of benefits for society and if we're going to tax people's hard work, why not tax income that came from simply being born?  The benefits include ensuring that we don't stagnate society.

In an egalitarian society such as the United States, much of the American dream is premised on the concept of hard work leading to great reward. Anyone can make it.  But if the children of successful people can simply inherit immense wealth wholesale without having earned it that strikes me as not being good for society.  This is especially true when it is property -- land holdings -- that are being inherited.

That said, I am not in favor of massive taxation of inherited income.  I don't agree with the whole "that money has already been taxed" argument at all, however.  After all, money gets taxed as it passes hands all the time.  Why would inherited income be treated differently?  It's still income.  What I would like to see is a healthy balance between what is good for society as a whole and what is good for individual families in particular. 

I'm all for people at Higgins Lake being able to have cottages that pass on to their next generation. But that next generation should have to put something up too to get it so that there is at least the hope that other citizens may have a shot at buying that property to pass on to their children too.

Post Notes:
Some people are reading this article as "Oh greedy Brad just wants cheap land."  Sigh. I was using thiis example to illustrate a general point.  I have no problem with inheritence, I am simply saying that inheritence should be taxed as any other income at the same rates as other income.  So technically speaking, I'm in favor of LOWERING the inheritence tax but I still support there being an inheritence tax.

18,272 views 49 replies
Reply #26 Top
All of the justifications in the world won't change the basic message. People should be taxed off of their land so that someone with money can buy it out from under them. It's just wrong.
Reply #27 Top
I'm finding it difficult to agree with you here, Brad. The money that buys that land or gets passed on to beneficiaries is very much "after tax" money, having been taxed a whole bunch of ways on the way from being earned to becoming an asset. I'd rather just be sure the individual is fairly taxed in the first place (get rid of all the loopholes or go to a consumption-based tax) and get rid of the death tax. The only real reason it exists is that the government needs a guilt-free way to recover some of the money that dodged taxes during the first pass due to all the silly loopholes extended to the rich in the tax code. Worst case acceptable scenario would be to tax the appreciation in value when the asset is disposed of, at ordinary income tax rates.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #28 Top

Sorry Brad but this is just wrong. When that money was earned it was taxed. And now your saying that they should be able to tax it all over? Would you not consider that double-dipping?

Every time money changes hands it's taxed. It's a fact of life unfortunately.

Reply #29 Top

All of the justifications in the world won't change the basic message. People should be taxed off of their land so that someone with money can buy it out from under them. It's just wrong.

On the contrary, I don't accept your premise.  I don't think descendents have an automatic right to inherit everything.

No one is kicking the owner of the land off.  When that person dies, the inheritors certainly have a priviledged advantage at getting it, but I don't think it should be automatic.

Reply #30 Top
Drag - sorry, I (like others) have to take you to task on this one. Normally I pretty much agree with you, but in this case, as your later added note says, it seems that this just points out your own jealousy in wanting something for yourself that others already have.

Inheritance taxes are not the answer. They do nothing to really make these properties available, or at least to make them available at a reasonable cost. In fact, they may do just the opposite in many ways - they may wind up sold off to pay the inheritance taxes, but of course because the person receiving the inheritance wants to maximize their new wealth, the property must be sold at the highest possible prices.

I don't want to see properties like the ones you describe handed down in perpetuity either, but having the government tax it away doesn't solve the problem. Where do you draw the line? 3 generations is enough to hold on to something, but 4 is too many? 1 is too many? 2 is too many?

You can't make it fair by taking it away via taxes in the name of the government. All you'll do is add more money into the government and someone with just a bit more money left to them, or earned via hard work or a lucky stroke of software coding can come along and still lock up the property you long for.

Perhaps the answer isn't so much in inheritance taxes as it is in getting the government to take some properties via other methods so that the property can be turned into public lands and facilities. I will say that it (to some extent) broke my heart to drive along the PCH (Pacific Coast Highway) and see so much of the coastal land literally littered with cruddy homes that provide some lucky individuals a fantastic view of the ocean. Of course there are negatives with those properties too -- including the potential for mud slides and more. But my point is that where I would much prefer to see a fairly pristine skyline (similar to the public beach and park lands also along the highway), there are parts which have been private for many years.

For the greater good, perhaps less private ownership of some areas would be a good thing, but again, not done through taxation as much as other methods of having the government acquire the lands and property.
Reply #31 Top
So you've decided not to comment on my blogs for awhile. Very well. (plonk) (if you can't discuss the issue civilly don't discuss it at all -- I don't care of people comment on my blogs so I have a low tolerance for having my arguments name-called)


"Plonk" me all you want, it's your blog. However, if you make a stupid statement, I'm not afraid to point it out to you. At least with the rest of your post you made some decent points (even if I don't agree with them). I'm just calling it how I see it, the same as you.
Reply #32 Top

I don't mind someone not agreeing with me.  But I expect people to not state that my arguments are "stupid".  If you can't be civil enough to disagree without being insulting, then I'll remove you from my blog.

My intelligence is not based on what degree I agree with your opinions.

Reply #33 Top

Terpfan - All I am saying is that thhose who want to do away with the "death tax" may not be considering the repricussions.

If we're going to tax EARNED income, then we should tax UNearned income as well. I don't see why this is so controversal.

Reply #34 Top
Draginol

For ever person that calls you greedy in their eyes, I believe they are just as greedy to want to receive free income without taxation.

Think about it people, do you really want the Hinze-Kerry fammily to contunue as they are with someone elses hard earned money?
Reply #35 Top
For ever person that calls you greedy in their eyes, I believe they are just as greedy to want to receive free income without taxation.


So why not tax the inhereted income (if we are to tax income in the first place), but at the current rate for that income? The way it is right now, the "inheritance tax" is based on the value of the whole estate. That means, if my parents have a home in Northern Utah, a winter home in Southern Utah, a couple of cars, and so on... The inheritance tax is taken from the value of both homes and cars.. etc... We (the beneficiaries) will only get 1/6 of the estate each. If we were each taxed based on our "income" from the inheritance, then we could decide what we would do to cover the added taxes.

So, it really is a "death tax", instead of an "income tax" because the tax is assessed on the assets of the deceased, not the "income" of each beneficiary.

Think about it people, do you really want the Hinze-Kerry fammily to contunue as they are with someone elses hard earned money?


Nice shot! ;~D Why should the Hinze-Kerry family have any less right to decide what they want to do with their assets than anyone else? On the other hand, why should anyone have to hire lawyers and CPAs to make it so their money goes to their family, instead of Senators like Kerry? ;~D
Reply #36 Top
Nice shot! ;~D Why should the Hinze-Kerry family have any less right to decide what they want to do with their assets than anyone else?


But the origanial man who made the money, that family loves to support ultra liberal causes with, is most likely screaming from the grave "FOR GODS SAKE STOP!!!!!!!!!"

Also, wouldn't you like to see any of the Kennedy family have to accualy work? The only one that I know of that works is married to a Republican.
Reply #37 Top
"We currently have an inheritence tax. Get rid of it and I suspect you would see "hereditary lands" in the hands of the very rich much more often."


The "very rich" have no problem with inheritance taxes, because, well, they're rich. Its people who have struggled to build an inheritance and who don't have a ton of liquid assets that are weeded out. And, as I said, even the ultra wealthy very rarely hold these properties for more than a generation or two.

So, it seems more like you are weeding out most of the middle class to me. Hmmm... could this be zoning by taxation?

Reply #38 Top
I disagree with this article on a basic fundamental level.

Reading it I get the feeling of socialist land barons of the 21st century.

Inheritance tax needs to go, specifically for the reasons stated in this article.
Reply #39 Top

Making a bunch of money simply because you were born is not my idea of merit.

And if the kids worked for their parent unpaid until the age of majority and the parents wish to reward them with an inheritance it should be the parents right to decide the "merit" of this income. Once you start handing the Government the reigns in determining what constitutes quality of work for pay you have a whole new system of government.

Ok there are probably a tiny percentage of folks who inherit significant assets "just beacause they were born" but do you really want the Federal Government making the determination on income "merit"? I know there are plently of ideological Luddites in the Senate who would certainly classify software income as meritless.

Reply #40 Top


All of the justifications in the world won't change the basic message. People should be taxed off of their land so that someone with money can buy it out from under them. It's just wrong.


TRUE! I can see now that land that was once used for food and fiber production and raising families on is now used for rich people to play on. So sad...
Reply #41 Top
TRUE! I can see now that land that was once used for food and fiber production and raising families on is now used for rich people to play on. So sad...


...and other land that was once used to produce food is not.. why? Because the government is paying the farmer not to grow food on that land. The farmer then takes that government money and sells the option to investors, who give the farmer a lump some now in exchange for the government subsidies for X number of years. So, the money going to the farmer, to not grow food is now used by the rich to play on. Oh, before I forget... and whose kids will probably not get to work the land when their parents die, because, while they make $30-50k a year working the farm, the estate will be taxed based on the millions the farm is worth....

So, in reality, all they are working towards is the joy in paying Draginol's much celebrated "inheritance" tax. Ask a person who grew up on a family farm why they're subdividing it now... Answer? Because it makes a whole lot more sense to sell the farm now, and pay capital gains tax now (especially since that is based on what each family member gets from the sell of the land) than inheritance tax later (which is based on the total value of the farm).

But, Draginol, at least it would give you a better chance to get your mits on other people's property.
Reply #42 Top
I see your point here, but at the same time doesn't that mean that those families of hard working people lose the land because the next generation can't afford to pay the new income tax?

Do they still get to own the land and at least sell it to pay for the new income they inheritted from someone in their family? Do they have to pay the new income before they get the land?

I don't know... this seems to hurt not only who earned the land through hard work (as well as oppertunity, because after all you can work as hard as you want, it is oppertunity that gets you to a statis of 'making it'), but it hurts poor members of a family who gin such a inheritance. I think this is a two fold folly that hurts the rich and poor alike. Both end up loosing out or getting taxed again for getting something from a family member such as land. The land can be sold, the land can be a place to live, an OPPERTUNITY to not be poor anymore (thank you rich uncle), a place for good ole grand mama, my disabled sister and her nurse.

I am not sure his would work.
Reply #43 Top

So why not tax the inhereted income (if we are to tax income in the first place), but at the current rate for that income?

This is what I advocate.  But some people want to do away with the inheritence tax completely.

Reply #44 Top
Personally I don't know what Farm you guys are working on, but my uncle turned his farm into a Corporation. He has already given his shares to both of his sons and he is labeled as an employee. This type of Corp. manipulation is taught in almost every Midwestern collage of Agriculture.

Of my four uncles two are now incorporated, one died but gave his land to his sons first and the last has refused to incorporate. Every body feels the last uncle that refuses to incorporate will get screwed, but he refuses to give quote: "My bastard sons anything".

The only reason I'm not a farmer now is because my Grandfather believed my mother (only girl in family) should marry a farmer and don't need any land. I worked four summers moving cattle, fixing fences, repairing irrigation system and other jobs. I was paid through a Corporate check, but my two cousins were paid by check and Corporate shares. We all paid federal income taxes and they ultimately got the share of the farm they worked for, without paying inheritance tax.

In the Beatrice Nebraska area I don't know to many old fashion Family farms left, most have converted to the more profitable/secure Corporate farm I described above.
Reply #45 Top
Wealth is finite....pure and simple. As is real estate.

Our Capitalistic system as many flaws such as huge wealth disperity that is unrelated to hard work or 'merit'....but most accept it in the hopes that they will end up in that 10% that owns 90% of the wealth.

As for taxes, I find it un-American to speak of taxes as 'theft' . The government is US. You really need to get over this sophomoric way of seeing the government as some nefarious group of shadow-men out go get you.

We pay less taxes here in the US than in any other modernized nation, and we have a higher standard of living.

Ever notice that the ones who whine about taxes the most are the ones with 3 cars, a swimming pool, and the new plasma tv?

Yeah, thank God Paris Hilton got that much needed tax break by doing away with the inheritance tax.

She'll prolly buy lake Higgins with the tax savings and turn it into a porno set for her next dvd.
Reply #47 Top

And if the kids worked for their parent unpaid until the age of majority and the parents wish to reward them with an inheritance it should be the parents right to decide the "merit" of this income. Once you start handing the Government the reigns in determining what constitutes quality of work for pay you have a whole new system of government.

I think this is nonsense. That's such a HUGE if.  So some former slave plantation in the south should just automatically "Stay" in the family because 200 years ago some settlers squatted on the land and claimed it on their own because the latest generation may have done some unspecified "unpaid" work?

If great great great grandson X inherits 50 acres of land that is worth $5 million, then that grandson should pay income taxes on that.  If I work my ass off and EARN $5 million, I sure have to pay income taxes on it.  It just baffles me that someone woudl argue that someone sitting on their ass should be able to just get $5 million simply because of shared genetic material.  If the grandson isn't has been a reasonable success, he should be able to come up with a way to pay the income taxes on it.  If not, he sells the land and pockets the money that he inherited that wasn't owed in taxes (i.e. ~$3.5 million of it).

The inheritor gets first shot at keeping the land in the family. And in fact, assuming "the family" is more than one person at this point, they could go in together to make up the difference.  And if not, then it opens the land for a new generation of people.

Reply #48 Top
The inheritor gets first shot at keeping the land in the family. And in fact, assuming "the family" is more than one person at this point, they could go in together to make up the difference. And if not, then it opens the land for a new generation of people.


No! That's assuming that the inheritor can "scrape" the money together to pay the damn tax in the first place! If not then the family farm goes bye-bye! So what your saying then is that if the inheritor is an "only" child/inheritor and can't get the money together to pay the tax....tough shit, you lose bud! Either that or sub-divide the family land to pay the tax. That's just a large load of crap! You can't equate slaves/slavery to what we're talking about. That's apples ands oranges.