Draginol Draginol

Terry Schiavo's end speaks poorly of our judicial system

Terry Schiavo's end speaks poorly of our judicial system

It's about the law

As far as the law is concerned, it has spoken. Many courts have heard Terry Schiavo's case and concluded that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive through artificial means.

That is what this case boils down to. People have the right to decide whether they want to be kept alive via artificial means.  And the courts determined that there was sufficient evidence through testimony that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive this way.

However, it's the "evidence" that is problematic here in my opinion.  She had no living will. Hopefully this incident will encourage people to start making living wills so that the judicial system can't be screwed around like this.  Terry's parents say she would not want to be starved to death.  Terry's husband says she would.

In my view, the word of Terry's husband is meaningless. He's moved on.  He has two children with another women.  As soon as he had a child with another woman, his "guardianship" rights should be reverted to the parents.  And the parents want her to be kept alive.  She's not on life support, she simply is incapable of feeding herself.

That is where I think the focus of the debate exists.  Frankly, we really don't know what Terry wanted.  I know I would not want to be kept alive via artificial means but on the other hand, I don't know if I'd like the idea of being starved to death over a two week period. I think when most people think of being taken off "life support" they picture themselves in a coma without the ability to breath on their own. 

That's why this case is so compelling.  We really don't know what Terry would have wanted and so many people feel that the default option should be life and not starvation.

Anyone who has ever worked in a group home for the mentally disabled can tell you that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who would die without what would seem to most people extraordinary intervention.  She we starve them to death too?

In fact, why stop there?  How about the people are incapable of feeding themselves without government subsidies? Billions are spent providing food to people who somehow have managed to screw up their lives to the point that they can't afford to pay for their own food.  Should we stop providing them food?

What's ironic is if Terry were a convicted murderer, one could almost imagine the far left out in force protesting on the other side.  It gives the impression that the only lives that the left really wants to fight for are those who either have killed people (murderers) or want to kill people (terrorists). I know, that's a cheap shot but it does strike me as odd that the kind of same people who will camp outside a prison to protest the execution of a convicted murderer have contempt for the people who want to keep Terry alive.

I am a strong believer in individual choice.  If Terry truly would have wanted to die this way, then I am all for that.  I am just not convinced that that is the case based on the publicly available evidence.  And if we're going to choose death as the default when someone can't keep themselves alive on their own, then that takes us down a slippery slope that I'm not sure people want to go.

31,027 views 82 replies
Reply #26 Top

No, I think that it was her decision to make, just as it is Terry Schiavo's husband's decision to make. The law doesn't say "Unless the spouse in question is a louse." (And by the way, I think that is exactly what he is. No offense to the rest of the lice out there.)

The issue isn't whether he's a louse or not.  The issue is whether he should have life and death decision making over a woman who he is only "married" by the most strict legal definition.  He's already had 2 children with another woman that he lives with.  He's not the person who should be making this decision.

For me, this all boils down to a question of what the state's DEFAULT ruling should be.  Condemned killers get more benefit of the doubt than this woman has.  We don't know with any real certainty what this woman's wishes are.  Therefore, the default ruling should be for life. She's not on life support. She simply can't feed herself. 

We don't know what Terry wants. We do know where the parents want. Why are we so quick to kill off this woman?

I mean look, as a hard carrying member of the culture of death I'm generally pro-death. There are MILLIONS of people on this planet that are as if not more disabled than Terry is. Why not off them?  Like I said, we spend billions on providing food to Americans too stupid to figure out how to pay for their own food. Why not cut them off?  I hear it's a painless way to go..

Reply #27 Top
I think that you are so right with all the examples you showed. I know I would not want to be kept alive if I had to be kept on life support, but at the same time I dont want to starve to death.
Reply #28 Top
Spouse for spouse and parents for minor children is the law.


Ignorance, Stupidity, or just a lie... You decide...

I have personally treated & transported spouses against the wishes of the other spouse. Why? Because, with a lack of a signed, and legally authorized "Do Not Resuscitate Order" or "Living Will", if I had have complied with the spouses wishes I would have been breaking the law! "Abandonment", "Negligence" and "Malpractice", would each be used in the charges against me, my partner, my ambulance service, the city or county (if I worked for a municiple service) and my medical control physician.

It is plain and simple. Without a signed and legally authorized document, any wishes are "hearsay" and not acceptable.

Of course, unless you're a judge who would rather play politics than interpret the law.

WHy would they give her morphine if it was painless?


Morphine could be used for a few of reasons. 1) To relieve pain (of course), 2) To relieve stress on the heart, 3) If the drip rate were set high; to depress the heart (thus stopping it faster)....

Either way, it doesn't make the liars look good. If #1 is right, then you make a great point. If #2? Starva... er... I mean, "being denied nutrition and hydration" cause extreme stress on all cells of the body (including myocardial cells), so why administer a med to relieve stress to just some? If #3 is right then the whole idea of "not killing her" is proven a lie.

Good Question!!
Reply #29 Top

Either way, it doesn't make the liars look good. If #1 is right, then you make a great point. If #2? Starva... er... I mean, "being denied nutrition and hydration" cause extreme stress on all cells of the body (including myocardial cells), so why administer a med to relieve stress to just some? If #3 is right then the whole idea of "not killing her" is proven a lie.

I know that is from experience, but it lends so much to the debate, at least here.  And for that I thank you.

Reply #30 Top
Yes if you can't live on your own without assistance from a machine and there is no immediate (i.e. soon!) hope of you coming out of it and not requiring it, the support should be withdrawn. Should we let them starve to death? No, we should give them a huge overdoes of a pain killer and be humane about it, but they shouldn't be kept alive. Certainly not for 15 years.

If you're mentally incapable of feeding yourself, the government shouldn't help you. If someone wants to volunteer, so be it, but leave me and everyone else out of your value system. It isn't the government's job to do your bidding, it's the government's job to ensure that you're free to do your own bidding on your own terms without interfering with other people's ability to do the same.

Yes, if you fuck up your life to the point where you can pay for food, then you shouldn't be getting it from the government. If people want to donate money freely and of their own will to organizations that feed these people, that's your CHOICE. It however is not MY CHOICE to spend money on losers that got to the point where they can't feed themselves through sheer stupidity. (anyone can work behind a counter at 7/11 and pay for a couple of happy meals a day, little own a place to live) And just like cable companies can deductively bill, the government shouldn't be able to either. If I don't use it, I shouldn't have to pay for it. (and before you say that I choose to pay for it because I'm an American/Canadian, that's like arguing to black during the 60s that they don't have any freedom and will always be enslaved simply because they choose to live in the US and if they don't like it they should go back to Africa. Taking my money without my permission and without providing a service to ME is theft. That you value charity is fine. That's your value system, it is not mine. If you want to pay for it, go ahead, no one is stopping you. However you don't get the right to force your values on me and force me to pay for your value system. (which is the scariest part of this whole thing..... freakin religious right...)

Life is not the government's interest. The government's interest (and this is directly from the founding fathers) is to ensure the safety of it's citizens from threats both foreign and abroad. I.e. To ensure that you are safe to live your life freely without the interference of government and physical violence from others (government or otherwise). The most fundamental right you can possibly have is the right to die. And that means the right to choose to die without the interference of government, and the right to have someone else assist you in your right to die. Terry, whatever her horrible state married this man, whether you like him or not. (the signs are mixed on him... see ars technica article on the subject) As a result, she put her trust in him to act on her behalf in case something like this happened, and thus chose him as her decision maker if she couldn't make decisions for herself. Thus she has spoken, through her choice to marry the man just as assuredly as if she had had 20 beers and decided to drive and then killed someone. Whether you like the case or not, whether you like a society that is free, you have to respect freedom, because if you do not, it is only a matter of time before it is your values that are being oppressed in the name of morality, it is your life that is being dictated and it is your life that gets burned up in a gas chamber. Freedom is a two way street. You neither get to interfere with other's ability to harm themselves, speak their mind, or otherwise act without physically harming others. As a result you get to expect that others are held by the same principle. Freedom is an absolute. You can't be free at one moment because others happen to agree with you and not free the next because a large, vocal group that happens to have the ear of the president (i.e. right wing religious nuts) says that your position is evil. Chose: Do you want to live in a country that is ruled by religion like Iran or Syria or any number of other evil nations, or do you want to live free, and accept that there are a lot of people that have different values than you and no matter how much you don't like that, you are not free to interfere with them unless they physically, without permission, harm another.

And keep in mind. This is a woman that on a CT scan shows absolutely no brain activity beyond autonomic functions. Her brain has atrophied. She feels nothing, little own pain. Thus however distasteful it is that we allow someone to die by starvation because we don't have the guts to do it humanely, it isn't hurting her. It's putting to rest a body that holds nothing of what Terry once was, because her mind is no longer there.
Reply #31 Top

Terry Schiavo's end speaks poorly of our judicial system

you've made the assertion but  i doubt you can provide convincing evidence to condemn the judicial system.  as nearly as i can tell after reading way too many transcripts, pleadings, rulings, etc., all of the judges involved from the point the family first walked into court through 3/22/05 based their decisions on the law; when they varied from what might otherwise have been considered standards, they did so to accomodate the shindlers.  the decisions from 3/22/05 to present are pretty much pro forma....there was nothing new to consider.

it certainly ain't america's judicial system thats exploiting this family's troubles.

 

The issue is whether he should have life and death decision making over a woman who he is only "married" by the most strict legal definition. He's already had 2 children with another woman that he lives with. He's not the person who should be making this decision.

actually the decision has been out of his hands for several years.  when the family feud began getting really ugly in the late 90s, michael schiavo invoked the trial court's jurisdiction to allow the trial court to serve as the surrogate decision-make--as provided for by law (and regularly done in other cases involving children and those unable to act in their own interests).

Reply #32 Top
Drmiler you misunderstand what I mean. What I meant is that the time threshold for action was conditional to the amount of publicity the case was receiving. I am speaking about taking the son-in-law out of the picture. Once it got too big there was no way the father could do what was right and make a move against the son-in-law. He would need to contract it out and I highly doubt the guy would know anyone who could help him out with such a thing. And because of his lack of contacts his only option would be to do it himself. But like I said, the situation became too hot for him to have done anything himself. This Michael husband guy, he hasn't really done anything that would make it harder for someone to take him out. His actions would mean great satisfaction should something happen to him. Her parents and especially the father have the familial duty to take any form of action to save their child's life. No matter how drastic. I mean this in no jesting manner. If I were as old as her dad is I would easily take the chance and do the real right thing. What would he lose in comparison to what he would gain? A few more years out in society with no shred of family honor left, or a few more years and the knowledge that things have been settled in a fair and honorable manner? Being made a fool of isn't very condusive to living a life worth living. Maybe the father needs 50mg of prozak for a backup insanity plea.
Reply #33 Top
"The major issue, to me, about taking the decision making away from doctor's and the courts is that it sets a precedent that we will have to live with for some time."


But that is the essence of "law". If the law is a good one, and well constructed, there shouldn't be all this "deciding". The fact is, especially in this case, Americans are seriously uncomfortable how blurry the line between "handicapped", and "doomed to die" is.

"Life is not the government's interest. The government's interest (and this is directly from the founding fathers) is to ensure the safety of it's citizens from threats both foreign and abroad.


I think you mean "at home and abroad", and in that case the legal issue of when you may or may not kill your wife falls perfectly under the responsibility of lawmakers.

You seem to think this is an issue of the government "supporting", T.S., John. When has that ever entered into it?
Reply #34 Top
Drmiler you misunderstand what I mean. What I meant is that the time threshold for action was conditional to the amount of publicity the case was receiving. I am speaking about taking the son-in-law out of the picture. Once it got too big there was no way the father could do what was right and make a move against the son-in-law. He would need to contract it out and I highly doubt the guy would know anyone who could help him out with such a thing. And because of his lack of contacts his only option would be to do it himself. But like I said, the situation became too hot for him to have done anything himself. This Michael husband guy, he hasn't really done anything that would make it harder for someone to take him out. His actions would mean great satisfaction should something happen to him. Her parents and especially the father have the familial duty to take any form of action to save their child's life. No matter how drastic. I mean this in no jesting manner. If I were as old as her dad is I would easily take the chance and do the real right thing. What would he lose in comparison to what he would gain? A few more years out in society with no shred of family honor left, or a few more years and the knowledge that things have been settled in a fair and honorable manner? Being made a fool of isn't very condusive to living a life worth living. Maybe the father needs 50mg of prozak for a backup insanity plea.


Your right.....I misunderstood. And I should have inserted the word "legally" in my post. Although if it was me and the opportunity presented itself. I'd still take the butthead out. I wouldn't care how big it had gotten.
Reply #35 Top
Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU.
Reply #36 Top
Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU.
Reply #37 Top
Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU.
Reply #38 Top
You seem to think this is an issue of the government "supporting", T.S., John. When has that ever entered into it?


that is the very crux of the issue. florida's law--as does texas'--intends to acknowledge and protect the individual's right to refuse treatment. acting as her proxy of the first priority reserved to the spouse by law, ms schiavo's husband has informed the court that she directed him to forego artificial life support measures in the event she was unable to do so herself. based on the evidence presented to the probate court, a judge ruled in her favor.

"Choices about death touch the core of liberty. . . . [N]ot much may be said with confidence about death unless it is said from faith, and that alone is reason enough to protect the freedom to conform choices about death to individual conscience." justice stevens.
Reply #39 Top
"Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU."


What evidence? We don't hand over people's estates based on hearsay wills. The manager of an estate has more responsibility than this. This isn't a spouse testifying that his wife wanted her nephew to have her car, this is someone saying that someone should be starved to death. Do you really think that we should starve people to death based on hearsay directives?

Another major factor is his title as "husband". When the man moved on, so should have his title. We don't accept polygamy. You dont' go find yourself a new spouse and manage the old one like she was a piece of rental property.

""Choices about death touch the core of liberty. . . . [N]ot much may be said with confidence about death unless it is said from faith, and that alone is reason enough to protect the freedom to conform choices about death to individual conscience.""


I would agree wholeheartedly if there were a directive here. There isn't. In addition, this is the loosest possible standard of "life support" imagineable. The only thing shallower would be "a spoon". This was assisted suicide, not terminating life support. As it stands, assisted suicide is illegal, and it will NEVER be legal when the person's only directive is hearsay testamony of a spouse...

If we make it so, then any handicapped spouse who loses the ability to speak for themselves can be offed at will...
Reply #40 Top

Most advanced medical directives and living wills are for "do not resuscitate" or "no life support".  A feeding tube is not considered by any hospital that I have been to, or read about, considered "life support".  If they were, there would be a lot of paraplegics who are on daily "life support" because they have trouble swallowing.

If she did say that she never wanted to live in that state, I could understand ending her life.  What I can't understand is the way they are doing it.  She obviously was in good health.  She has lived quite a long time without food or water.

I read an article on CNN that explained why she was given Morphine.  It was because the staff saw her muscles tense and heard moaning from her as if she were in pain.  If she were as brain dead as people have said, why was she in pain and moaning requiring pain medication?

It just doesn't sit well with me.  You get put in jail for starving a dog to death, but somehow it's legal to starve a person to death.

My husband and I were talking about this case.  We have a daughter, and can't imagine being in a legal battle over her life with a "husband" that had a new family.  I can't believe that the courts are even considering him her husband considering that he moved on and has a couple kids by his "fiancé".  How can a man in that position retain Terri's best interests? 

Hopefully this case will prompt people to draw up advanced medical directives and living wills.  Too bad it's too late for Terri to voice her opinion.

Reply #41 Top
"~Judges used little more than "hearsay" evidence to come to their decisions."

Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.

"~It was the wife killer, Michael Schiavo (not Terri Schiavo's Doctors) who ordered her physical therapy and further tests discontinued."

A doctor couldn't order the ending of the therapy. But according to Wikipedia, Michael only ordered the ending of the therapy after the doctors told him that there was no use continuing it.

"~the wife killer, Michael Schiavo has already lied several times, including about her condition, so why accept "this is what she wanted", especially after she had already been "living this way" for years before he "magically" remembered her wishes."

I find nothing odd about taking three years (1994 to 1998) to decide that everything is over and only then implementing her wish. You have to make a substantial assumption to claim that he only remembered her wishes then. I suggest you must have come to the conclusion that Michael is the bad guy before you came to the conclusion that he "magically remembers her wishes" rather than vice versa.

"~There are NO medical protocols which would allow medical professionals to accept a verbal living will in any other case."

Th medical professionals didn't accept the verbal living will, the courts did. The medical professionals accepted the court's decision.

"~The judges apparently did not interpret current laws, they simply listened to one side and made their choices."

If this was true governor Bush or president Bush would certainly feel that they could interfere. I'm afraid it doesn't seem to be true.

ParaTed2k, this is how witch hunts are started. I doubt that Michael Schiavo would survive a meeting with the demonstrators very long if these views continue to be distributed as fact. It doesn't matter whether he is an evil bastard or not, this must not happen.

The facts are that he IS the legal guardian of Terri (whether we like it or not), that we do not know whether Terri wants to stay alive or not (and he is legally the best source we have for her wishes, also regardless of whether we like it or not), that it is possible that he is telling the truth, in which case what is being done to him now is terrible and must therefor be avoided if only to avoid that situation, and that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state (according to her doctors, whether we like it or not) and as such is unconscious and unaware (whether we like it or not). The videos we have seen are only a few minutes and her actions in them represent instinctive or random reactions. I do not trust my emotional views of wanting somebody to live and react against the opinions of medical professionals who claim the opposite.

We have absolutely no proof or reason to believe that Michael is lying except the fact that we don't like him and want the woman to live.

"If she did say that she never wanted to live in that state, I could understand ending her life."

And that's the point. We legally know that she did say this. The court didn't find any reason not to believe her legal guardian when he claimed such. How can we assume that the courts are corrupt and that he did lie when we clearly know less about him or the case that the judges who have ruled and when some of us even believe in new "facts" that have clearly been made up because they fit the Michael-is-the-bad-guy theory, which is the most convenient way to mix his impression on us and our emotional need to support the dying woman and save her life.

"Terry Schiavo's end speaks poorly of our judicial system"

It might speak poorly of the laws, but the judicial system worked perfectly, even when popular opinion was completely against the ruling according to current law. This is how a judicial system is supposed to work and it is amazing that it did.

However, I would not be surprised if Michael Schiavo, the evil bastard, was attacked or even murdered soon.

That would speak poorly of our society though.


Reply #42 Top
Why didn't the Supereme court take this case?
Reply #43 Top
And that's the point. We legally know that she did say this. The court didn't find any reason not to believe her legal guardian when he claimed such. How can we assume that the courts are corrupt and that he did lie when we clearly know less about him or the case that the judges who have ruled and when some of us even believe in new "facts" that have clearly been made up because they fit the Michael-is-the-bad-guy theory, which is the most convenient way to mix his impression on us and our emotional need to support the dying woman and save her life.


Don't you think that it's a bit blind to think the courts infallible, and the husband incapable of lying? I'm not saying that the courts are corrupt or that the husband did lie, but we can't simply deny that possibility because it would make us feel terrible if we ended the life of an unwilling person.
Reply #44 Top
"~Judges used little more than "hearsay" evidence to come to their decisions."

Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.


Sorry but your wrong! NOBODY heard Terri say anything. Nobody except Michael that is. And by ALL rules of evidence that is hearsay. There are no coberating witnesses nor any evidence to back him up.


A doctor couldn't order the ending of the therapy. But according to Wikipedia, Michael only ordered the ending of the therapy after the doctors told him that there was no use continuing it


Funny that the therapy was disontinued right after Michael won the court case. Not one dime of what was supposed to go for Terri's care was ever spent in that fashion.
Reply #45 Top
I heard Michael Schiavo's attorney today describe her setting. He said the room had music playing, there were flowers, and she had a stuffed animal under her arm. I submit this is all carefully crafted window dressing to make the scene more palateable. What does it mkatter her surroundings when the key element is the utterly cruel means used to enforce her exit from this life. If the surroundings had any relevance, we'd have to allow that if Saddam Hussein had simply had some cheery wallpaper on premises, the rape rooms used by his psycho sons would have been just ducky. Sveral points have been raised that need to be investigated. Perhaps they should have been addressed years ago, but they haven't been so addressed. But allowing Teri to die makes everything moot. A judiciary which cannot allow that it is fallible is a terribly dangerous thing to contemplate. It is more important to get the rulings right than it is to cover your tracks or make more bad rulings to justify other bad rulings. We are prepared to become less as a people when we will allow someone to die this cruel death whose only crime is a failure to leave written instructions regarding her wishes should she become incapacitated. If there is such a thing as divine justice, Teri's husband should not sleep well at night ever again.
Reply #46 Top
"Don't you think that it's a bit blind to think the courts infallible, and the husband incapable of lying?"

I think it is a bit blind to think that the courts cannot possibly have been right and the husband could not possibly have been saying the truth in this case. Read the comments above. Do you think anyone gave him the benefit of the doubt and didn't assume he was a crook?


"Sorry but your wrong! NOBODY heard Terri say anything. Nobody except Michael that is. And by ALL rules of evidence that is hearsay."

I am not wrong. I didn't say Terri said anything (to the court anyway). I was saying that Michael _IS_ her legal guardian and as such legally entitled to tell the courts what Terri's wishes were. The rules of evidence do not say that what a legal guardian says is hearsay. In fact I think you should not tell anybody that this was so, not only because it isn't true, but also because in this case it makes matters only worse when you do anything that creates more hatred among those who believe that Michael is a crook.


"Funny that the therapy was disontinued right after Michael won the court case."

And again the witch hunt appears. What is "funny" about this? In fact, why is it so important to make everything sound as if Michael was a crook? Incidentally, the two statements, yours and mine, might very well describe the same event. But I didn't include the word "funny" in my description of the situation.

"Not one dime of what was supposed to go for Terri's care was ever spent in that fashion."

Says who? The Wikipedia article (which might not be the perfect source, but it is a lot more precise that what I found elsewhere) says the following:


Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. Due to the attention she has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, Terri Schiavo has never developed any bedsores.

Raising the issue of a possible conflict of interest is the fact that Mr. Schiavo stands to inherit the remainder of Mrs. Schiavo's malpractice settlement upon her death. Mr. Schiavo has publicly responded to this charge by claiming that of the original $1,050,000 awarded in the malpractice suit, less than $50,000 is left, the rest having been spent under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo and the ongoing legal battle. This, however, is disputed. He had also had a contract drafted stating that should the Schindlers refrain from any further legal action, he will donate whatever his inheritance may be to charity. The Schindlers refused the offer.


Now, I am not claiming that I am privy to the information that it is definitely true that the money was spend under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo. But I am wondering why you are so sure that "not one dime" was ever spent in that fashion. Can you point me to the source?


"Saddam Hussein"

We are at Saddam already? Isn't that a bit quick? After all, Michael has only been the most evil man who ever lived for a few weeks now.


Reply #47 Top
"live our her life mentally handicap"

Draginol,

according to her doctors that wasn't an option. A persistent vegetative state is not a mental handicap you live with. That is why Terri's parents (want to) doubt that it is true.

The question here is not whether Terri would want to live her life mentally handicapped or rather die, but whether she would have wanted to be nominally alive but unconscious and unaware for several more years or rather die.

I believe that changing the subject from the second question to the first adds the wish that the woman should recover to the equation (and nothing else) but that it does cloud the issue and changes the facts.


In general:

It makes us feel good to wish for Terri to recover and it is even better that there is somebody we can blame for her death, but if doing so has to involve changing the facts and spreading rumours about Michael's evils, then doing so, I propose, is no longer acceptable.

Reply #48 Top
OK
2 things I disagree with

One: she is being tortured byt starving to death
Two: Most doctors who have examined Schiavo have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state

One more thing that is inportant to understand: Married sposes have the last word, not reative or parents (in other words, he might not even have NEEDED witnesses to Ms Schiavo saying she would not want to live like this... his word was enough)


A persistent vegetative state is not handicapped as far as I know. Her condition is not a type of severe brain-damaged that accored by an accident (and this accident should be investigater further).

While Ms Schiavo's parents say that she is responcive, no doctor (not even the court doctors) have concluded the need to say she is not in a vegetative state nor any hope she would come out of it. They concluded that she is gone. KEEP IN MIND that there is, as far as I know, any law that states that persistent vegetative state is considered handicapped.

So there you have it. If you wonder why the judge's hands were tied it was because:

A) Husbands and wifes get the last word (they are the legal guardian of each other)
B) They could find no evendince that she was not in persistent vegetative state or that she would come out of it and this state is not considered handicapped. (she didn't get this way from old age, nor was she born this way)


As you can see, the judge didn't have much room to go on. The criminal investigation of Mr. Schiavo was 'inconclusive' (which means there was just not ENOUGH evidence to bring to trial).

Heck, as wrong and stupid as it sounds, him 'just remebering' that she didn't want to live this way doesn't mean anything to the court because he is the guardian.



Becuase of all of this MY CONCLUSION is that there needs to be a change of law (not a special law just for Terri Schiavo to save her life). This law will detail how future cases will be judged. The fact that he remembered 2 years later should be taken into account (but currently it doesn;t matter). also taken into account should be his lack of wanting to try to bring her back, the fact that he broke his marriage vows by having an affiar with another woman and having children by her (of which totally concludes that he is with her not Terri).

These facts should have been acceptable in the court of law, but currently it is not. While he could say she died 15 years ago and he is trying to carry out her wishes (but obviously could not hold his life at bay until her body passes), the reality is that he did not clearly try to save her, he moved on almost immediatly after her 'death' (of which would be ok if it wasn't for the fact that her body was still alive and there were many things he could have done to try to bring her back) and has not excepted any possibility of treatment to see if she can be saved.



The reality is that she is considered persistent vegetative state (not handicapped) and her husband (however wrong he is) was at the time of injury her husband.

Being that there are NO current laws that detail how something like this would be judged, we have the conclusion. It is also the reason why the Supereme Court did not take it up. There was no error in fact or law


Change the law, this is the lesson here.
Reply #49 Top
Says who? The Wikipedia article (which might not be the perfect source, but it is a lot more precise that what I found elsewhere) says the following:


Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. Due to the attention she has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, Terri Schiavo has never developed any bedsores.

Raising the issue of a possible conflict of interest is the fact that Mr. Schiavo stands to inherit the remainder of Mrs. Schiavo's malpractice settlement upon her death. Mr. Schiavo has publicly responded to this charge by claiming that of the original $1,050,000 awarded in the malpractice suit, less than $50,000 is left, the rest having been spent under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo and the ongoing legal battle. This, however, is disputed. He had also had a contract drafted stating that should the Schindlers refrain from any further legal action, he will donate whatever his inheritance may be to charity. The Schindlers refused the offer.




Does anybody have anything to say against this? I don't know if it is true or not.

Also, many state starving and going without water is a painful way to go, but everything I have found says that is not so (especially for those who are ill). Plus, she is getting pain killers.

Anybody disagree?

What I don't like is that they take the food away from her and then say 'your on your own'. I think we all know what the final result of this is. Instead of the whole starve and thrust (with the off chance it COULD be painful) why not end it? I think it is still cruel and unusual to let it drag on her. No one is throwing her out the hosptial, no one is rejecting her from other hospitals... why can't she just stay where she is at instead of the long dragged out case? Why not just leave it be or let her go peacefuly with an injection?



This case really bothers me. The law needs to be changed. Legal guardianship rights need to be revamped or reviewed.
Reply #50 Top

Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.

Hearsay is defined ast relating what another said.  MS related that TS would not want to live that way.  That is hearsay.  Pure and simple.