You don't like taxes eh? Remember, life ain't fair..

Some responses to the right from the left

from JoeUser Forums

    On raining evenings such as tonight I visit favorite websites like JoeUser and time after time I see Draginol (webmaster of JoeUser) sharing his right wing techie thoughts of the world. Hey, good for him. It's a free country and it's his site. I'm delighted that JoeUser.com is now open to others to contribute to it. I can still get the pure, unadulterated Draginol stuff on his home page. Even better, thank goodness, that other points of view can make their way to the home page.

    I hear a lot of bitching by the "right" about how we're over taxed. Or how "unfair" it is that the top few percent should pay all the taxes. Or how the left is trying to distort the "war on terror". But you know what? It our turn to give a few reality checks. "Life ain't fair" is a popular rejoinder on the right. You're damn straight it's not fair. And it's time for the right to suck it up and accept that truth...the whole truth of that statement. The reason why wealthy people (like Draginol) have been able to obtain their wealth is because they happen to get the luckiest roll of the dice in human history, they happened to be born in the United States. By being born in the United States they automatically gained home field access to the world's largest single market. They were brought up in relative security with reasonably good and free education. No doubt he went to a state subsidized university which put him on the road to success. So who built this society? The top 5%? No. All of us or at least the top 90% or so.

    Before someone from the right comes on and shows these figures about how many jobs the top 5% "create" let us remember that these jobs are created not out of any sense of altruism but because they need help. The top 5% benefit very disproportionably from the wealth built by society as a whole. So why shouldn't the top 5% contribute disproportionably to the very system that created the world's wealthiest and most stable society in history?

    The whole problem with the "I shouldn't have to pay taxes" right is that they forget that the wealth of our society is created by a team effort. Bill Gates may have co-founded Microsoft but its vast wealth was not generated by Bill Gates. It was a combined effort of tens of thousands of Microsoft employees. Sure, without Gates and Allen Microsoft wouldn't have happened. Is anyone going to argue that Gates and Allen haven't been well compensated for that fact? And what about CEOs who make $10 million a year running a company made up of people who's mean wages are $40,000 per year? Is the CEOs contribution to the bottom line really 300 times that of the average worker there? Really? Do you really think so? I think not. Because in reality, the success of companies is based on the quality of the employees as a whole. A good CEO can only magnify the inherent good qualities of the employees of the corporation. And don't we all know someone who works at some big corporation who is doing very important work that goes overlooked and unrewarded while some manager or sales person takes home a huge bonus by largely taking credit for the work of another? Taxes are the great equalizer. They are not intended to eliminate the differences in income, but they do soften the inequities of society.

    Mr. Burns and his ilk on the right would no doubt respond with "Let the market place decide..." Right. The market-place. The market place that, if left alone, would have the entire world controlled by a single corporation called Standard Oil. That market place. The same market place that we all know, deep down, would have long since poisoned the planet. Where's the profit in cleaner cars right? No thank you, I'll take a mixed economy where the government plays a role in promoting the general welfare of the population. And oh, by the way, that part is in the constitution.

14,098 views 8 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Do you think it's the government that created our civil society? You sure seem to think so...

Or perhaps, just perhaps, our society created our government in our own image in the first place. I'm not willing to credit our government for creating the secure, prosperous society we have today. I credit the American people. All the government in the world wouldn't bring us security and wealth if our culture weren't fundamentally honest, peaceful, and entrepreneurial.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
"I'm not willing to credit our government for creating the secure, prosperous society we have today. I credit the American people."

Agreed.

And, at this time, taxes being used for social programs represents the will of the American people. Social Security, Medicare and even Welfare are all programs that the majority of Americans favor.
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Taxes are the great equalizer. They are not intended to eliminate the differences in income..."

Exactly wrong and exactly right. Taxes are intended to fund the government's function--i.e. defending and governing the country. Taxes were NEVER intended to be an "equalizer" when the ability to tax was first granted to the government. Such ideas are the offspring of socialism, nothing more and nothing less. There is absolutely no reason that the government should be responsible for giving free handouts to whoever it thinks deserve them. If you need money then get a job or get help from family/local charities; if you want to give money, then great, give it to local charities or directly to those in need. The government should have no role at all as a middleman extorting money from some and giving it to others like it is now.

Time to wake up. People don't get rich by luck, they do it by hard work. And if the people working under them to help them get there weren't being justly compensated, logic would dictate that they would demand raises or quit. And as it stands already people with low incomes pay no or amost no taxes at all.

Taxing the rich to give to the less rich is only the will of the people insomuch as so many people anymore are lazy, greedy bastards that are willing to vote for idiots who will give them their handouts in exchange for power, no matter the cost to the country. No sane and responsble (read: not a leftwing nutjob) person supports such socialistic BS being shilled out to those who are not in dire need of help. And certainly not when we are already paying more than 30% taxes on average on our incomes already, the majority of which goes to exactly that purpose.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
The entitlements created by FDR and LBJ and other democratic proponents of big government are theories steeped in socialism. The problem with entitlements like Welfare is that it ruins peoples lives, people who collect Welfare professionally have unknowingly been stripped of their potential, these people should be sent to programs that send them in the direction of learning marketable skills and getting jobs so that they could have a sense of self worth, just giving them a barely survivable wage and allowing them to grow comfortable with resigning themselves to a life of poverty is wrong.

Programs like welfare help liberal agendas because it keeps people down and it keeps taxes up. Welfare keeps people dependant as it strips them of all hope and independence, this is a form of communism and it should be changed.
Welfare has become a tool of the left, a tool being used to gain leverage and appease an army of failed citizens, citizens who resign themselves to failure in a country like America where their potential is limitless. The left want to punish and punitively tax people who work hard and have the ambition to become successful, that’s the Democrat agenda, Tax the successful and appease the poor with this money, effectively turning the government into a Robin Hood type circus.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
No one likes giving up money that they have earned, but every member of society has a responiblity to fund the government. I didn't agree with any of the tax cuts and refunds Bush II gave to people. If there was really a surplus then the money should have gone into a fund for a rainy day (read: Iraq war). Any business would be shivering at the idea of running without a reserve cash fund, so why does the US government run that way?

Any way back to topic, taxes are used to fund many things some I agree with and others I don't. I try and fix the way taxes are spent thourgh voting. The programs started by FDR and LBJ were very socialist but that doesn't equal bad either. The whole point was to raise the standard of living for every American. While a great many of those programs have become blotted and abused they still serve a function. That function is the increased stability of the socitity as a whole. Poeple who have food and shelter are less likely to steal for it. Someone who has a choise between killing someone for food or get a handout will take the handout. But if you leave no choise that person will kill to feed themselfs and thier familys. I do feel that the welfare money should be tied to some sort of work program or education program.

As for the current tax setup in America I would lower the taxes but kept the graduated % of income as we have now. But I would get rid of the IRS. What ever money the government takes from your pay check is what they keep. If you got married or had a kid then you would change your status and your taxes would be ajusted accordandly. There are way to many loop poles that people and bussiness use at the end of the year to get out of paying any taxes.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Calor, I completely agree with your analysis regarding the disparity in pay between the top ladder and bottom ladder in a company. I wish there was something we could do about it. It's the same type of disparity that pays sports figures millions of dollars and teachers a fraction of that amount. It's the free market that creates this disparity. I recognize that we can't have it both ways. We can't be pro-free market on one hand and anti-free market when disparities occur. Government can have a role in leveling the playing field since it is often greed and self-interest that creates the disparities.

Regarding taxes. We ARE overtaxed. Income taxes are only the most visible form of taxation. If you count up all the other taxes such as sales taxes, state taxes, corporate taxes, gas taxes, etc. we are taxed a huge amount. The way Governments tax is often motivated to encourage/discourage certain behaviours. I would like to see us move to a flat-rate tax that would eliminate all the cheating and ability for those with money to avoid paying taxes due to loop-holes and misuse of the tax system. I don't oppose progressive taxation, and I think most people would feel better about the taxes they paid if they felt everyone was paying their fair share.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
In Ontario they just voted in left wing nuts which will raise our taxes.

Here is economics 101 people have money they spend it buying goods
Creates jobs and more people have money to buy goods.
People in these new jobs pays taxes everybody is happy.

Raise taxes people can not buy stuff, they lose their jobs and Taxes
have to be raised to support these people. Tax money always gos down the drain creates
nothing but rich unions.
Who is happy here a few civic unions.

And tax the rich does not mean the top 5% it means everybody.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
"There are way to many loop poles that people and business use at the end of the year to get out of paying any taxes. "

Can somebody tell me *exactly* what these loop holes are? I have heard people say this (mainly as a way of complaining about rich people) but what are those loop holes? I see how much Stardock pays in taxes (after deducting all the stuff that you can legally deduct) and it makes me cry every year. Do you have any idea how many more people we could *employ* if we didn't have to pay those taxes? If taxes were cut for businesses (especially single businesses) then everyone could employ more people. More people employed = less taxes needed for social funds like welfare. More people employed means that the economy would be strengthened by more people spending money on homes and cars and all the other stuff that employed people buy.

Don't even get me started on social security....man how I wish I had that chunk of my paycheck to invest myself...but, oh! wait! the government decided that I was too stupid to invest my own money, then started using it for other social project...sweet....

Being one of the few people in my family that has actually done something with my life (my immediate family is like me, but my extended family is not), I have a different perspective on welfare. I have watch generation after generation on welfare. One of my aunts actually asked me once: "Why do you spend your time working when you can just live off government money?" When asked if she knew where that money came from, she looked at me like I was insane and said: "the government". She had no clue that it was all us schmuck working people who paid for her house, food, and life. Her kids are on welfare to, and I'm sure her kid's kid's will be, too. Yeah, that makes me happy about paying taxes.

Now, before you label me as a far right freak- I do believe that there are some people who need help. that is not to say that I think that they should get a free ride (just like I don't think that people can declare bankruptcy and walk away). "Help" is one thing. "Free ride" is another. We have an all or nothing system right now. I single Mom working at McDonald's will have a lower standard of living than the single Mom on welfare, and that's just not right. We have to reform the system to encourage people to get into the workforce and work to become independent.