Mmrnmhrm

Join Date 02/2005

France was never a friend of the US

Setting the record straight

French intellectuals like to sniff that Americans have no culture and no history. They're right partially on the latter's account, most Americans have no sense of history and it's a good thing for the French that they don't.

The French play the "We've always been friends with the Americans" on the naive American public who seem to actually believe it. A few Americans may vaguely have heard of Lafayette, the famous French soldier who came to the US to fight for American freedom. What they don't know is that he did this in violation of a specific order from the crown not to do so.

During the American revolution, the wilily Benjamin Franklin managed to convince the French monarch that helping the colonists would be a good way to tweak the British. The French were no friends of the US though, they helped but only because it was in their best interest - they wanted to weaken Britain, the "hyperpuissance" of the day.

During the peace treaty negotiations, the French were secretly trying to push Britain into having the western most territory of the US stop before the Appalachian mountains. Luckily, the US negotiators caught wind of this and negotiated with Britain directly. Of course, during the war itself, after a series of setbacks, the French pushed the Continental congress to negotiate for peace early with some parts being independent and the rest part of Britain still (if that had happened, much of the south and New York would be separate countries today). That isn't to say the French weren't helpful, but they weren't particularly helpful. They were doing what was in their best interest throughout it all.

Not long after that war, the French began stirring up trouble for the US culminating in the infamous XYZ affair where the French demanded bribes to even speak to US diplomats. The first actual significant naval clashes of the US Navy were against French ships. Things continued down hill to the point that the War of 1812 was nearly a war against France (the senate voted that down 18 to 14 -- but it was a close thing).

The Louisiana Purchase was no gift. Napoleon had planned to fortify New Orleans. But after a disaster in the Caribbean where his invasion force caught Yellow Fever, he had to give up his New World ambitions and needed cash. The US happily obliged.
The French continued to be a pain throughout the 19th century with the culmination of the US Civil War where France wanted to recognize the south's independence early on as a means to thwart the growing strength of the US and enable them to move forward on re-colonizing the new world (which they did briefly by overthrowing the government of Mexico and installing their own "emperor" -- incidentally, the French military, despite having huge advantages in numbers, lost several battles against the Mexican "army" -- foreshadowing future French military performance).

During the Civil War, the French got so bad that they were supplying money, arms, and ships to the south including allowing southern ships to refit and upgrade in French ports. The only reason the French didn't officially recognize the south is that they wanted Great Britain to do so as well as to avoid any isolation in the event the South lost. The British were not quite as keen on the South because of the issue of slavery and a general cautiousness.

The French went through a few more governments during this time. After the French got their rears handed to them by the Prussians in 1871, the French became more pliant -- for awhile.

In World War I, the French were about to lose again and in fact a massive mutiny was only put down thanks to Marshall Petain's reassurance that the Americans were coming and the war would be over soon. The Americans did come and their added weight along with Wilson's 14 points convinced the Germans to sue for peace. But unlike the relatively benign treatment the French received at German hands in 1871, the French insisted on a crushing peace settlement including requiring Germany to assume responsibility for the entire war ("war guilt"). While one might argue that the Prussians pushed pretty hard in their peace settlement in 1871, it's worth bearing in mind that the Prussians actually won that war and had essentially conquered France. France, by contrast, wasn't occupying any of Germany at this point and was only a "victor" in that they were a passenger of the British/US victory train. France's insistence on humiliating Germany helped seal the fate for another war.

In World War II, were not allies of the US until 1944. From 1941 to 1943, technically the French were neutral at best, Nazi puppets/collaborators at worst. When the US invaded French North Africa, they were met with stiff resistance from teh Vichy forces in many cases. Some of the first American ground combat deaths were at the hands of the French. In Metropolitan France, the general population was not particularly unhappy with the Vichy regime. A 1942 election between DeGaulle and Petain (leader of Vichy France) would almost certainly have put Petain on top.

After Britain and the US rescued France..again the French immediately became pains in the asses again to US and British commanders to the point where Eisenhower had to threaten to cut off French supplies if they didn't quit going off on their own.
After the war, the new menace was the Soviet Union. In response, NATO was formed. And the French did little to help with that -- at one point dropping out of NATO completely.

In the 80s, France refused to let the US use its air space to retaliate against a terrorist attack ordered by Libya. In fact, the only time French air space has been used by the US on combat missions has been to liberate France -- which ironically the recognized government of France complained about US/British violation of their airspace then too so technically, there is some consistency.

In 1991, the French, technically was part of the coalition. But even there, they refused to do very much and were generally a pain in the butt -- to the point that Bush Jr. probably was not too keen on having French "support" again such as in Afghanistan or Iraq II.

This is just a highlight reel of US/French "Relations". It's a lot easier to find obnoxious, hostile, and occasionally acts of war commited by France against the United States than to find acts of significant friendship (the Statue of Liberty being one of the few things but even that had an ulterior motive).

I don't think France is an enemy of the United States as some neo-cons do. But it has never really been much of a friend to the US. Today, the French really have nothing left. Their subsidized farmers, their poorly made manufactured equipment, and their subsidized competition of US aircraft makers along with their petty meddling in foreign policy that is designed for short term French gain (why should the French care if their actions ultimately lead to Europe's endangerment? They know the Americans will come running to protect them).

The French are many things. Friends of the United States? Not so much.

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Countries can't really be friends. Period. What appear to be friendships are transitory, often born out of convenience or proximity rather than any love between two or more nations... because almost any time where one country can benefit at the expense of another, there will be a schism. That's just the way of the world.

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Few points I'd add...in the first gulf war, France sent an aircraft carrier there.....but not before removing every aircraft and helicopter and replace them with trucks...essentially making it a cargoship...go figure...another point...with the exception of the UK, our allies during Iraq 1 capabilities were less than their media and ego's hyped...

In the aftermath of Iraq 2, reams of evidence have been piling up showing our "friends" illegal arms deals (which wont be paid for since the regime is no longer in power), they act like its normal and we get pissed....kinda shows where they thought their bread was getting buttered, but fear not...for while they have lost a potential arms buyer (Iraq was a major financier of Frances gov controlled arms companies) France in it's ongoing effort to be a pimple on the ass of the world(annoying but of no consiquense) is trying to void the European arms embargo on China helped by other European "friends" showing that when its all said and done for....keeping their withering arms companies alive is all that matters...

P.S., if France and our other friends in Europe suceede in getting the China embargo lifted....you can almost bet that when China does go after Taiwan militarily...and we along with a few other nations step into the gap and stop them....should we send the bill and the names of all who die because of their behavior to those nations....after all arming enemies of the US and the free world again should carry a high penalty.

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What both of you say hold some truths. But how you look at international relations/foreign affairs greatly influences how you look at the relations of nation-states.

I myself am more of a realist, and see French/German lead EU opposition (or beginnings there of) as a natural reaction of a 'State' acting in their best interest to off balance the leading global power in a multi-polar system. If we weren't the top dog, they would work against who ever was. It is in any states best interest to check or deminish another states power in an attempt to increase their own power.

However, being in the position where we are seen as the topmost of the multiple poles in this multipolar system, we are a natural target of angst and their efforts either directly, or indirectly. But being in this position, we have the priviledge and the penance of attempting to mantain or postion.

As for Europe in general, during the cold war, which the international system was truely bipolar, it was in their best interest to support the US against the USSR. Now that there isn't that immediate threat, and due to the fact that they don't see islamic fascist as a direct threat (currently) they shall not be inclined to side with us in the foreseeable future. They will keep good relations due to the fact that our economy is currently the strongest developed economy (China is developing but certainly not developed (but every nation has helped it to develop since the 70's (which is another subject, but one that we shall all pay for in due time))) and thus provide them a reliable product for their goods. But beyond that they shall seek to be more indepent of our influence until the time they see it in their best interest to cuddle up with us again.

As for the United Kingdom they have chosen to ally themselves with us to influence us. This gives them power via proxy. As long as they are capable of strongly influence US actions, they have power. The point in which we completely ignore the UK, is the point where the will turn more towards the EU. And thus why they are still engaged with the EU. Although historically the UK fears continental Europe due to its historic instability (both politically and economically), it undestands with the EU, Europe theoretically has become more stable. And unless they become engaged now, they amount of influence they can have in this new IGO will be overshadowed by the likes of Berlin and Paris (which is the case right now).

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Wow, I guess those French Artillery troops we got together with once in awhile weren't "really" combat troops.. right? ;~D

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This statement borders on the offensive:

"France, by contrast, wasn't occupying any of Germany at this point and was only a "victor" in that they were a passenger of the British/US victory train."

France suffered 1.3 million soldiers dead during WWI along with over 4 million wounded. Total French casualties stand at 6.3 million or 75% of men mobilised. Your satement cruely diminishes the enormous sacrifice paid in blood, pain and suffering by French soldiers and agrandises what was an essentially small contribution by the US. You place the US in a position of primacy along side Great Britain (one million dead) in winning the war when it made nothing like the sacrifice and did almost none of the work. Historians continue to debate the actual effect of the US entry into the war (did you know that Australian historians have also claimed their nations' importance in the final victory?), but one thing is for certain, the US tasted far, far less of the unspeakable wretchedness of WWI than you wish to claim. War is a wicked, futile disease of humanity and you treat it like some kind of contest to prove national vigour - the same kind of thinking that contributed to the start of WWI in the first place.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/FWWcasualties.htm
http://www.nv.cc.va.us/home/cevans/Versailles/greatwar/casualties.html

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So because the French lost lots of troops they deserved something special? The Germans lost a similar number of dead in WWI so what's your point? The Germans in 1871 had totally defeated France and didn't impose anything like what the French insisted on the Germans in 1919 and the French had certainly not defeated Germany in 1918.

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So because the French lost lots of troops they deserved something special?

Yes. You see a similar principle behind our court system, after all, with damages being awarded to parties a judge deems deserving (though I am but a layman, and could be grossly wrong). In the case of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was ordered to pay massive reparations. While I'd never say France didn't deserve these reparations based upon the huge toll in both casualties and economic/geographic devastation WWI caused, they were certainly naive to expect Germany to be capable of paying off the reparations. The German state was every bit a shot as France was, and having to pay reparations only kept them in a quagmire of depression.

Wilson, IMHO, seemed to have the right idea with his fourteen points. France did deserve the Alsace-Lorraine back. But I refuse to believe that nobody could see where the undue hardships the ToV placed upon Germany would lead, namely the re-emergence of Germany as an belligerent nation in the late 1930's and subsequent outbreak of war in Europe again.

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So because the French lost lots of troops they deserved something special?

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I myself am more of a realist, and see French/German lead EU opposition (or beginnings there of) as a natural reaction of a 'State' acting in their best interest to off balance the leading global power in a multi-polar system. If we weren't the top dog, they would work against who ever was. It is in any states best interest to check or deminish another states power in an attempt to increase their own power.

---RightCow

I might agree with this, if we hadn't been on the same side as France for the last entire century and more, even to the point of taking it upon ourselves to spill our own blood and rend our own flesh to bail them out of two world wars. We've been no threat to their security; in fact we've only served their interests on that point (and quite well, at that), only to find in recent years that they've been working at undermining ours (Iraq and China).
We even tried to help them with their efforts against the Communists in Vietnam, and look where that got us.
From what you say, it's just fine that they want to make things difficult for the Big Bully on block, even though that same Big Bully held a more belligerent, much closer Big Bully at bay for them (referring to Germany and France both) for 40 years. It's even normal for them to do so. How cynical.
I understand about the intrigues of international relations, but it's still not good to bite the hand that helps you. We completely rebuilt both countries after the War, and have been good allies to them since. This is the thanks we get?

Two-faced Frogs are not a recent genetic anomaly; they've been around for centuries. Everyone hates the French and they know it. They just don't care.

Great article, Toughlove.

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Okay, with the understanding of Politics and why France has done what is has, where are these same people when it comes to supporting the United States for acting in the same way as France?

Against France?

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Let us slaughter the French pigs like the beasts that they are!

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

I don't think anyone argues that France doesn't/shouldn't do what's in its own best interest. But it's absurd to argue that France has somehow traditionally been an ally of the United States. It's not been a traditional adversary of the United States only because it was either too weak or too incompotent in its adversarial behavior to register in the minds of Americans.

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I have this poem to offer about the french that pretty much sums up how I feel about them

the french,,,, the french
are a funny race
they fight with their feet
and fuck with their face.

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Island Dog

Join Date 06/2003

+1047

What I find most interesting is how poeple, mostly on the left, worry so much about what the French think of us. That is one of their best lines, "Look at what Bush did, he made the french hate us."

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I thought the French only liked themselves and nobody else.

I also remember from History books that the US had a Quasi-war with France after the American Revolution, not to mention the XYZ Affair during President John Adams term in office.

I don't hate French people or French culture but the French government so bent on undermining the US or attacking the US through subterfuge is what I loathe.

France the land of cheese and wine --
where men whine about people who step out of their line.

- Grim X

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Hey, don't forget about that little French-Indian tiff before the revolution.......and by the way, the french do love some Americans.....Jerry Lewis and John Kerry both come to mind.............

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As that great statesman once said, "nations don't have friends; they have shared interests". Why should any American care if the French don't like them? To be honest I find it surprising that it's considered so offensive that they don't. The US has never really gone out of its way to help France (in both world wars America was more an ally of Britain than France; France was simply the unwilling and incompetent battleground), and France has never really gone out of its way to help the US. So to assume that there should be some common ground, a shared love for each other because of something that's as yet undefined seems kind of stupid.

The Columbians don't like the US. The South Africans don't like the US. Noone seems to care about that though. Why is France so special? Is it because they're white like you are? Is it because you named your style of hot chips after them? Is it because of the giant statue they gave you? It bewilders me why their opinion is considered so important that they must be slandered/supported every few weeks.

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The Columbians don't like the US.

--Cacto

The Colombians are drug dealers. South Africa, I know little about them except that we buy their diamonds.
Personally, I think that with France it's a loyalty issue; we feel a certain sense of betrayal that they try to resist or undermine seemingly anything we do, even if it might be in their best interests in the long run.
Many of us (me, for one) may feel that they owe us, perhaps...I hate to reiterate, but there are many, many American-born corpses lying beneath Flander's Field and in the ground above the beaches at Normandy. We won and returned to them what they were either too incompetant or unwilling (or both) to win back for themselves.
We deserve more than political resistance and arrogant dismissal of our society and culture for that.

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As in acting in its own self-interest, Rightwinger. They'll defend France for doing this but scream NO MORE BLOOD FOR OIL about the US...it's so hypocritical.

I see. Helix...sorry..I think I misunderstood you.

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The French still regard Napoleon as a hero. I suppose its OK to be a despot as long as you're a french one. The French have always been adversarial to the US, Lafayette not withstanding. In fact, the French government ordered him not to go, but he went anyway, with doesn't prevent them from puling that card out whenever it suits there purpose.

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Napoleon was not French, he was Corsican...though when you think about it France has never had a strong leader who was French and unless you count Joan of Arc but the French betrayed her and watched her burn. Ah well, so much for French loyalty to even their fellow Frenchman (woman in this case).

I think France is a particular focus here because:
a) title of the article and topic of the post

people defend France as an ally when clearly our history should tell us otherwise
c) they whine the loudest, hands down, second would be Germany but there is a huge gap between first and second.
d) wish to rearm (personally) Mainland China ending the weapons embargo emplaced on Mainland China after the incident in a square
e) unlike South Africa or Colombia, France is a big trading partner plus a world power. After all one does not even bat an eye at the very mention of a Colombian or South African Military attacking people.
f) Colombia may dislike the U.S. but loads of Colombians come to the U.S. after all I have met a few just recently in my small town who immigrated from Colombia under less than legal circumstances, might because the country is riddled with Drug lords who can buy the Military who can control the country...or not.
g) South Africa has enough internal problems that they don't really lose any sleep worrying about us, but yet have supplied (off the top of my head) two lovely actoresses, Charlize Theron and Musetta Vander (Musetta is known to B movie people, a lovely brunette who did not receive the large break as Charlize but has made the most of her career anyways).
h) Would you like to know more?

- Grim X

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I like the way you added the Mexico battles. Many people think that Cinco de Mayo is Mexican Independance day, but in reality it is just a celebration (mostly in the US) of when a small band of Mexicans defeated a vastly superior french force.

Seems France has a good record in losing!

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Seems France has a good record in losing!

Which is undoubtedly one reason why they got their rep for being so sneaky and underhanded; they can't manage on the battlefield, so they fight their battles in other ways. They haven't won a significant battle since Napoleon....and as someone pointed out, he wasn't even French!

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Hi all !

Always a delight to read this kinf of writing...

Funny that as a child during the 80s I've always seen american as friends and the ones who helped liberate us... Funny that after the 9/11, the main french newspaper was titling on first page "we are all americans" and everybody felt this way... Funny that some american understand "allies" as "vassals" and wont accept any contradiction. Funny that few are ashamed that the most powerfull person in the world, leading the so called "biggest democraty" needs to present false indications and proofs to lead his own people to take them to war. And half of the nation stands behind in patriotic transe.

Don't get me wrong, as they are people in US to stand up against the actual nonsens, they are others in Europe to look with criticism the current & past behavior of our countries. I don't think selling weapons to china is a good idea either...

Poor america, I hope you wake up before it's too late...

Never has the word freedom been so misued and meaningless. I'm even ashamed to use it..

PS:
"Their subsidized farmers, their poorly made manufactured equipment, and their subsidized competition of US aircraft makers along with their petty meddling in foreign policy"

Have you ever been to France ?

You'll see it's pretty nice even if a bit strange : we have our own culture and language ! you won't believe it ! Some of us even refuse to simply switch to english as their only language ! and you know what ? it's the same in all european countries... incredible.

A good example of friendship.

Do you know that it's because of the US that France started the "Ariane" space launcher program ? The story is quite funny, Germany and France in the 70's created the most advanced telecommunication satellite of the time, USA was really supportive and said it would launch it and that the developpement of a European launcher was meaningless and a waste of time & money... When ready, the only "problem" in the USA launch contract was that France and Germany were not allowed to use the satellite for commercial purpose

So started the ariane development...

Now we've been told that Galileo, the european Global positioning system is a waste of time and money because amercian GPS system is available and free... Thanks ! maybe we'll do it anyway...

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Have you ever been to France ?

I am French as the day is long. My Great Grandparents came over to America. Until my Generation, everyone grew up speaking French and English (I learned French, but it was not used in the house).

I have been to France. It is dirty, and the people are rude crude and uncalled for. The France you describe is not available to Americans. If the French find out you are American (I assumed it was all foreigners, but in that I could be mistaken), you are spat on and treated with the utmost contempt.

Dont Lecture to me. Try visiting your own country as a visitor and not a native. You will see what I mean.

BTW: I lived in Europe, so it was not like a 2 week vacation. I visited France many times in that 2 years.

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