O G San

Why Shouldn't Iran Have Nukes?

Why Shouldn't Iran Have Nukes?

Thirty miles from where I sit typing this is the country of North Korea, which announced last week for the first time that it has nuclear weapons. When I first heard this news I paused for a moment of trepidation. And then, like everyone else in this region, I got on with life. After all, last week's announcement was not "news" as such, but merely confirmation of what, to use the Belfast parlance, "the dogs in the street know". Like it or not, we in north east Asia are learning to live with the fact that the regime in Pyongyang has nuclear weapons.

In a year or so it is quite possible that the people of the Middle East will have to learn to live with a nuclear-armed Iran. It seems more and more evident that Iran, if it does not actually possess nuclear weaponry yet, that it will soon have the capability to manufacture said weaponry quickly should it feel threatened.

All the sabre-rattling from the US on this issue can't disguise the fact that the world's only hyperpower has limited options when it comes to confronting Iran. America can't give Iran a taste of Iraq's medicine because the current patient has the doctor by the throat.

Just as America's ability to stop Iran getting nukes is limited, its case for doing so is flimsy. One question which the US, or Britain, or France, or Israel have never satisfactorily answered is this: If you can have nukes, why can't Iran? There is, it seems to me, a quite startling hypocrisy at the heart of each of these country's posture towards Iran. What is so terrible about Iran having the big one, as opposed to say, France?

Is it because the Iranian regime is belligerent? Well, let's do a little comparison. Since the 1979 revolution, Iran has only been involved in one conflict, with Iraq in the 1980s. Tehran went to war on that occasion on the far from unreasonable grounds that the world's largest Arab army had turned up at its door looking for a scrap. This is hardly the record of a prerennial warmonger.

Now let's take the record of one of the "established" nuclear powers, the UK. In the same period, Britain has gone to war five times, against Argentina, Iraq (twice), Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. On only one of these occasions, the first, was British territory actually attacked. Yet no-one seems to lose any sleep at the thought of Tony Blair's finger hovering over the red button.

Is it because Iran is a Muslim country? Perhaps, but why then is it OK for Pakistan to have nuclear weapons? The regimne of Pervez Musharraf is tight with the West. If the world can live with one nuclear-armed Islamic state, then why not two?

Is it because Iran has a poor human rights record? Possibly, but again look at one of the "established" members of the nuclear club, China, which leads the world in executions. And again, we've learnt to live with Beijing having nuclear weapons.

Is it because Iran could share its nuclear weaponry with international terrorists? Once again, this can't be ruled out, but it seems that other nuclear powers present a far more pressing danger in this respect. First we have Pakistan, where A Q Khan was for some years running a sort of Nukes'R'Us business.

Then there is Russia, with its huge arsenal and its withered government infrastructure. Finally, we have North Korea which might just sell one of its bombs for a bowl of rice sometime in the future. These three scenarios seem a whole lot more plausible than the idea of Iran, implacable foe of al-Qaida, giving nukes to terrorists.

Now imagine just for a moment that you are Iran. Take a look at your neighbourhood: Three countries over is your implacable enemy Israel - which has nuclear weapons. Next door to you is Pakistan - which has nuclear weapons. To your north is India - which has nuclear weapons, then China - which has nuclear weapons, and finally Russia which, wait for it - has nuclear weapons. To top it all off the US - which has nuclear weapons - has moved in next door to you on both sides. Considering all this, is it any surprise that the ayatollahs feel like Tim Roth at the end of Reservoir Dogs?

In the short-term, Iran having nuclear weaponry might actually serve to improve global security by bringing a balance of terror to the Middle East. At present, only one country in the region, Israel, has the ability to wipe other states off the map. This may be good news for Israel, but it's not good news for those, such as Iran, who may be in line for a wipe off.

Once Iran gets the big one though, the old Cold War "logic" of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) comes into effect. Iran can wipe out Israel but Iran won't because Israel can wipe out Iran. Israel can wipe out Iran but Israel won't because Iran can wipe out Israel. And they'll all live happily ever after!

Or at least in the short to medium term they will. MAD has a certain demented logic to it, but in the long-term, possessing nuclear weaponry is all demention, no logic. I rue the day that a species as singularly destructive as ours acquired the power to end all life on this planet. As an incurable pessimist, I can't help thinking that one day we'll utilise this capability. If the ice-caps don't get us, the mushroom clouds will.

But in the meantime, I fail to see how having ten nuclear states, rather than nine, should create such a great crisis.
17,598 views 46 replies
Reply #26 Top
>These are very good arguements. But lets take it a bit further shall we? Is the US or the UK likely to use those nukes?
>I don't think so. Will N Korea?

Says who?
Every four years bring a new regime into power ... with their own "interests"

>For all our *war-mongering* when have we ever used or threatened to use a nuke besides Japan in WW2?

How about the development of "bunker busters"???
The "Depleted Uranium Shells" used to decimate Fallujah is pretty close ... Did you read news reports claiming witnesses
seeing U.S soldiers scrubbing the place with water tanks?

What were they trying to "clean up"?

>But will those hotheads over there see it *before* some idiot pushes the button?

Listen, they are getting it for THEIR defence. If you dont attack them they dont use it.
So, DONT THREATEN THEM AND YOULL BE FINE!!!

>With us it takes more than just the presidents say so to use nukes.

How about the guy walking around with the brief case with the "launch codes" ... if theres any truth to that then it only
takes HIM to stop a madman

MAD .. its all thats keeping us alive. I vote for more countries joining the Nuclear Club.


This post shows your ignorance. We will NOT use because we're not willing to pay the consquences. Maybe *you* are? Making Bunker Busters are NOT threatening to use OR useing nukes!
There were NO depleted Uranium shells used in Falluja. Before you start babbling on armament KNOW what your talking about. Depleted Uranium is used for one thing and one thing only and that's armor piercing cannon rounds, PERIOD! And lastly your comment about the man carring the codes. Again shows what you DON'T know. No such animal. The codes are kept in safes. And just because someone has a launch code does NOT mean that they can get to the launch controls! Now go back to your playpen and grow up.
Reply #27 Top
You know something, rombios....from this post on I'm ignoring you.
Say what you will...you're an America-hater deep in your soul, and anything you say and do on here will reflect that. Anything I say or do will not change that, either, so I will not bother acknowledging your presence from here on out.
You are a psycho who is woefully biased and terribly uniformed, yet you continue to wage your battle of wits even though you personally hold no weapons.
Everyone here knows this. Leave.

Go on over to the Nickelodeon website and debate cartoon characters with the 6-year-olds. Maybe there you could win. Goodbye.
Reply #28 Top
>And just because someone has a launch code does NOT mean that they can get to the launch controls!

You say tomato, I say toMAto ... whats your point?
If you have an administration filled with LOYAL SYCHOPHANTS, then who will stop you from taking the Nuke option???

>Now go back to your playpen and grow up.

Seems I have touched a nerve!
Methinks these exchanges are so much easier for YOU "drmiller" to deal with, when NO ONE is challenging you
Reply #29 Top
If you have an administration filled with LOYAL SYCHOPHANTS, then who will stop you from taking the Nuke option???


Okay, one last time....after this I'm ignoring you. I had to respond to this one, because you are so myopic that you can't see that you're actually killing your own position. You're good at that.

Which government holds more synchophants? A democracy like America, where the president has to answer to the electorate, Congress and the Senate, or a dictatorship like North Korea and Iran and all the power is in the hands of one or two people? Now goodbye.
Reply #30 Top
>Reply By: Rightwinger Posted: Friday, February 18, 2005
>You know something, rombios....from this post on I'm ignoring you.

HA, you said that in another thread on a similar subject. You arent going anywhere!!!
your reply to this is PROOF POSITIVE

>Say what you will...you're an America-hater deep in your soul, and anything you say and do on here will reflect that.

Say what YOU will, you are an American Lover .. in your eyes America can do no wrong even when there is tons of evidence
to the contrary. You are a sheep and the sort of person that this administration loves. You ask nothing, question nothing.

In your eyes:
Everyone outside your border is a terrorist
Everyone who does not agree with your policies hates you
Everyone who refuses to yield to your whim has got to be taught a lesson

How can you continue to live in a world like we live in without amassing enemies?
No one wakes up and JUST hates America ... why dont you ask why others are viewing your government as they do?
OPEN YOUR EYES.

Look at the recent appointment of Negroponte ... as the Hondurans what he did to them during Reagans years in office.
And you wonder why you are hated

>Everyone here knows this. Leave.

Will you launch a pre-emptive strike if I remain. Or will you employ "death squads"?

>Goodbye.
Youll be back ... I know you better than you know yourself. This will not be the last you respond to this thread.
Heres your chance to prove me wrong
Reply #31 Top
A new word every posting ...
'SYCHOPHANTS' (rombios) - Psychotic toadies?
''synchophants' (Rightwinger) - Rhythmic toadies?
Keep them coming, guys! :)
Reply #32 Top
I have psychopants.
Reply #33 Top
'SYCHOPHANTS' (rombios) - Psychotic toadies?
''synchophants' (Rightwinger) - Rhythmic toadies


I have psychopants


i have a terrible addiction to/affinity for silly wordplay and no sense of proportion...which is why both yall gotta insightful for indulging in such literate nonsense in the thread of a discussion about such a deadly serious issue (prompted by an excellent article for which og san gets an insightful). it's a bonus rating hat trick!

Reply #34 Top
By the way what MESSAGE does leaving the CTB Threaty and starting research on "NUK LEAR" bunker busters give?


the wrong message--same as was communicated by the bush presidency's refusal in july 2001 to endorse the draft enforcement protocol to the 1972 biological weapons convention, our effective withdrawal from the 1969 vienna convention on the law of treaties in in may 2002, our opposition to the icc(also in may 2002), an apparent lack of interest in seriously negotiating with north korea over the past 4 years and installation of the first starwars sites in alaska last year.
Reply #35 Top
Nuclear weapons doesn't make a country more safe, it just makes the world that much unsafe. How many of us lived in the Golden Age of Nuclear Threat? I didn't, but I've spoke to older relatives who remember the duck and cover routine.


there was no such thing as a golden age of cold war nor has there been that much of a thaw. whether you realize it or not, you've lived your entire life just one button push away from extermination.

there was a time during the very late 90s when it seemed as if that might change. the way i see it, between 1998 and the present, the us had two opportunities to help lead the world a little further back from the brink. the first was blown by the distraction created by the furor over monica blowing bill. those of you who believe bush showed such admirable leadership following 911 should take a moment to consider how a wiser statesman could have used that tragedy to prevent nuclear weapons proliferation rather than a license to indulge in the development of new and more fearsome nukes.

we might also have insisted that israel conform to international law since you didnt need to be ms cleo to foresee the eventual consequence.
Reply #36 Top
For starters, Iran is a theocracy


for that very reason, i have to very relunctantly disagree with you.

The supreme leader would also need the consultative assemblies permission to detonate nukes. The consultative assembly (or parliament) is elected by popular vote to four year terms--not appointed by the supreme leader. So, it is not just one person holding their hand over the button


i could be wrong here but its my understanding that the islamic republic of iran attaches ultimate authority to 'the guide' (at present that would be ayatollah khameni).

if anything, its the fact of iran's theocratic nature that makes its possession of nuclear weapons more dangerous than say those controlled by china. as far as i'm concerned, any society that advocates voluntary martyrdom and accords such value to the concept(last time i checked, etiquette required martyrs to maintain a plausible air of reluctance; seeming to be too eager was just bad form)should be limited solely to weapons capable of local annihilation.
Reply #37 Top

To say that because the police sometimes abuse their authority that you should also have the trappings of that authority, the weaponry to impose your OWN abuse, falls flat.
A very perfect reason to favor gun control.

San: Your position is logical but where will it end--when all nations,even undeveloped ones have nukes? That's as bad as handing a gun to a child. Far better is the non-proliferation act to seriously assure those without nukes will be given unadulterated protection against an overt threat--even if it means an allied conflict with So.Korea, Israel or Pakistan. 

Reply #38 Top
O G San,

Although interesting, basically your point is mood. Why shouldn't Iran have nukes? For the same reason you don't want any country not on your side to obtain nukes. You can't pressure them as effectively if they do. Live is a lot simpler if your opponents have no serious means of striking back. You can't win them all though and occassionally a country will slip by and obtain them. Basically that is just too bad.

So regarding Iran, you are right, I don't see it as a big immediate threat. But the West is better off with Iran not having them and so that is what we should strive for.

One remark about passing the nukes to terrorists. For countries supporting terrorists, the terrorists are nothing more than a tool in their arsenal, just like nukes are. Terrorists are great for creating havoc at your enemy without harming yourself. If I were Israel, and I knew Iran had nukes and someone nuked me, I would simply nuke Iran back and make sure Iran would know this beforehand. No more worries about Iran passing nukes to terrorists. Iran would even be motivated to prevent them from obtaining for instance Russian material.
Reply #39 Top
But the West is better off with Iran not having them and so that is what we should strive for.

One remark about passing the nukes to terrorists. For countries supporting terrorists, the terrorists are nothing more than a tool in their arsenal, just like nukes are. Terrorists are great for creating havoc at your enemy without harming yourself. If I were Israel, and I knew Iran had nukes and someone nuked me, I would simply nuke Iran back and make sure Iran would know this beforehand. No more worries about Iran passing nukes to terrorists. Iran would even be motivated to prevent them from obtaining for instance Russian material


the world--not just the west--would be better off if nobody had nukes.

the problem with assured mutual detruction is that it only works when youre dealing with rational people who dont believe theyre gonna receive a martyr's reward for attacking non-believers. unfortunately that's not the case with iran and to a lesser extent pakistan, india and possibly israel.
Reply #40 Top
LEAVE THEM ALONE AND YOU NEEDED WORRY ABOUT YOUR SAFTEY



only absolute, asinine fools, ignorant of historical human actions would ever believe this....
Reply #41 Top
only absolute, asinine fools, ignorant of historical human actions would ever believe this....
MythicalMino

You just described rombios down to the last pimple on his ass.