Prison Reform (or not?)

Shouldn't You Be Unable To Forget That You Are In Prison?

     (full disclosure : I am biased against criminals)

     Although you will be unable to view his original post (because he caved to pressure :) ) Talisein was the one I picked this up from. He linked to this experiment conducted by Stanford. While I found the entire affair to be quite interesting I did see a strange sort of anti-prison bias in the whole thing.

     From the very first the experiment was skewed by the fact that you knew up front that the "prisoners" had in fact committed no crime. This immediately makes you feel sympathy for them even before their "prison experience" got started. As the experiment prgresses this feeling grows and is encouraged by the accompanying narrative. An example?

Even when prisoners were asleep, they could not escape the atmosphere of oppression. When a prisoner turned over, the chain would hit his other foot, waking him up and reminding him that he was still in prison, unable to escape even in his dreams.

     Note the use of words like "oppression". Never is there given any consideration to the fact that real prisoners are there because they victimized someone else. Often several someones. I think that a rapist, drug dealer, murdered, child abuser, or career thief should be reminded that he is a prisoner and is being punished every goddammned second of their sentence.

     Really..... do you think that you should feel the "poor prisoner's" woe over his chained leg? I can feel woe for his victims no problem. Woe for the prisoner? I think not. Imagine, "Alas for poor John Wayne Gacy... sleeping under such harsh conditions... unable to escape even in his dreams!". Are you fucking kidding me?

Another line of drivel :

The stocking cap on his head was a substitute for having the prisoner's hair shaved off. The process of having one's head shaved, which takes place in most prisons as well as in the military, is designed in part to minimize each person's individuality, since some people express their individuality through hair style or length. It is also a way of getting people to begin complying with the arbitrary, coercive rules of the institution.

     The horror of not allowing someone who has thoroughly and often violently fucked over the rest of society to express their individuality! Shocking! (This is why ultra-liberal positions are regarded with nothing less than scorn)

     It was not all bad mind you I liked this part especially in light of Abu Ghraib :

The guards were given no specific training on how to be guards. Instead they were free, within limits, to do whatever they thought was necessary to maintain law and order in the prison and to command the respect of the prisoners.

 

     I think this bit highlights problems with making prison's out of whole cloth with a staff that has no experience. (The Abu G guards shoudl be executed in my opinion but maybe not for the reasons you might think)

     There was also a lack of context of the part of Stanford :

The cells were so small that there was room for only three cots on which the prisoners slept or sat, with room for little else.

     This in neither cruel or unusual folks. The military lives like this routinely. It ain't the Hilton but it ain't cruel either. Fuck people, have you been to the 3rd world?

     The military paralells continued as the experiment used push-ups as punishment. Of course the folks at Stanford also has a lack of perspective here :

However, we later learned that push-ups were often used as a form of punishment in Nazi concentration camps

     The difference here is that the Nazis were able to motivate their prisoners to really torture themselves with push-ups as the prisoners knew that failure to do so would result in far more heinous punishments. Not exactly the mindset here guys...

     The military also has a Code of Conduct for prisoners to help them deal with situations like this :

One of the three cells was designated as a "privilege cell." The three prisoners least involved in the rebellion were given special privileges. They got their uniforms back, got their beds back, and were allowed to wash and brush their teeth. The others were not.

     The Code forbids prisoners from accepting this sort of treatment to prevent breaks between prisoner groups.

     Further rhetoric against "The Man" from the guys at Standford :

Our ex-convict consultants later informed us that a similar tactic is used by real guards in real prisons to break prisoner alliances. For example, racism is used to pit Blacks, Chicanos, and Anglos against each other.

     This of course implies that without guards "formenting" rascism there would be none betweeen these groups? Are you shitting me? Tens of thousands of inter-tribals wars between all races say differently.

Indeed, after the nightly 10:00 P.M. lights out "lock-up," prisoners were often forced to urinate or defecate in a bucket that was left in their cell.

     So was the world being collectively abused prior to the invention of the shitter? This might not be pleasant but it hardly constitutes cruelty either.

     While I found the whole experiment to be an interesting view of how easily people can become subsumed by role-play I was also a bit appalled by the fact that this experiment was carried out by folks who already had a pre-conception of how the results of the thing would (or should be) but seemed to be completely unaware of their own bias. I beleive that this heavily figured into the way they were "sucked into" their roles in this. They were participating in an interpretive drama of how they thought prsioners and guards were supposed to be rather than experiencing the thing for real. All in all I think it was pretty cool though.

     Throughout the whole of the experiment and the accompanying narrative the sympathy with the prisoner is apparent while the guards are sympathized with not at all let alone the victims of these "criminals". It was as though these people were prisoners in a vacuum (which of course they were) and had never done anything to warrant such harshness as push-ups and shitting in a bucket. Here's a clue folks... There are bad, evil, sadistic people out there and they aren't all (or even mostly) the prison guards.

 

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Reply #1 Top
Greywar, I absolutely agree with you. I am appalled sometimes to think of how much money we spend to provide comfort items for hardened criminals. I fully support rehabilatative efforts for first time, misdemeanor type offendors, but your hard core felons and multiple time losers should get no slack. We've got working poor in this country who live in worse conditions than our convicts. That's unacceptable.

I also totally agree with your take on the bias in the study. Take for instance:

The process of having one's head shaved, which takes place in most prisons as well as in the military, is designed in part to minimize each person's individuality, since some people express their individuality through hair style or length. It is also a way of getting people to begin complying with the arbitrary, coercive rules of the institution.

Apparently, all rules in prison are "arbitrary" and "coercive". I guess the author believes that there should be no rules. I always thought that the rules were to maintain good order and safety for the guards and prisoners. Apparently they are just arbitrary, and we can do without them. The prisoners should be allowed to run around and do what they want, just like they were on the outside. What a crock of crap. That's a great idea, if you want massive amounts of crime in the prison (which we do have in some prisons, due to the lack of strict rules).

I know that there was a Sheriff somewhere down south (Arizona?), that started chain gangs again. He has a waiting list of prisoners trying to get ON the work details. He also has a lower return rate of criminals than normal. What a concept: teach people to be responsible for themselves, make their punishment hard, but give them opportunities to prove themselves and EARN rewards. Hopefully we can get more people like him into the prison systems across the country....probably not though...the ACLU and other liberal organizations live to make those peoples' lives hell.
Reply #2 Top
Greaywar, you get an insightful from me for this. People have to start understanding that people are in prison as punishment for a violation of the law. prison and jail aren't rehabilitation facilities, and they're not designed to be nice or pleasant. The kidea os that they're nasty places to be, so nasty that people will try to avoid the activities that led them there in the first place.

I know that there was a Sheriff somewhere down south (Arizona?), that started chain gangs again. He has a waiting list of prisoners trying to get ON the work details. He also has a lower return rate of criminals than normal. What a concept: teach people to be responsible for themselves


That's Joe Arapaio, and he's the Maricopa County Sherrif. Prisoners there bitch all the time about not having air conditioning and having to sleep in tents etc etc....but his stance is that prisoners shouldn't have better amenities and living conditions than many law abiding citizens do, and they certainly shouldn't be living better than the men and women serving in the military overseas. I agree. I cannotsay enough that we have to get out of this touch-feely mindset when it comes to incarcerating people for breaking the law. Jail and prison times are supposed to be punishments not opportunites for people to better themselves at the taxpayer's expense.
Reply #3 Top
I've worked in a jail now for 11 years and what I have observed is that for 99.99% of them, all they can think about is their goddam dope, cigarettes, or booze. They (at least the majority I deal with) are mostly meth cooks that concoct their shit from lithium batteries, starter fluid, sudafed tablets, anhydrous ammonia, muratic acid and a variety of other fun stuff and inject it into their veins, but, God forbid! if they see the smallestof hairs in their food--look out! They are so self centered it staggers the imagination. No, I have NEVER, EVER, NEVER seen one mistreated, but they can damn sure dish it out...
Reply #4 Top
Great article!! Not only in how you wrote it, but in how you pointed out the rhetoric and propaganda of the Stanford "experiment".

The first thing I think we need to do in reforming our prison system is to remember what a prison is meant to be in the first place. Through time we have done away with almost every other form of punitive actions. For the most part, our judges are left with little alternative than sending a convict to prison to "do time". Prison was meant to seperate criminals from society. Not just as a punishment, but to prevent the violent criminal from further criminal activity. Now our prisons are bulging at the seems, when a huge percentage of the people in them are non-violent offenders whose seperation from society accomplishes nothing at all.

Does it really make sense to take an otherwise productive member of society and lock them away? Is turning them from taxpayer to ward of the state doing anyone any good? Justice doesn't mean "locked away", but we have sadly removed most other alternatives from the system. The only convicts who need to be "locked away" are those who (through their actions) have proven that society is not safe unless while they are free.
Reply #5 Top
Let's try the Socratic method:

You live in Texas, right?
You like to drink booze a lot, right?
You like to yell, be obnoxious, etc., right?
You like to fight and fancy yourself a tough guy, right?
You don't back down from anyone, right?
You drive a vehicle, right?
You like guns, right?
You have an ex-wife, right?
You're in the military, and don't have a heck of a lot of disposable income lying around for a lawyer, right?
You're still a young lad, 'bout 30 I reckon, full of piss and vinegar and haven't quite gotten your "Ya Yas" out yet, right?

So let's take a break there. I'll grant you are likely an otherwise law abiding citizen, but some of your behaviour puts you at a much higher risk of getting arrested than your less bellicose fellow citizens. Statistically, if you do end up in jail I think it would be for one the following reasons:

-Drunk and disorderly
-Drunk driving
-Drugs (although you don't seem like the crank type, you could be wrong place/time)
-Assault
-Firearms violations
-Torturing Iraqis (hey, I got a troll quota to meet here)
-Soliciting a prostitute
-Doemstic dispute. Keep in mind you don't actually have to hit or even threaten to hit a woman, if the police are called via 911 to any kind of domestic argument in many jurisdictions they *must* press charges, no exceptions, and you must go to jail.
-Fake claim of abuse, etc. from hormonally charged current girlfriend/spouse
-Fake claim of abuse, etc. from vengeful ex-wife, mistress, or other miscellaneous skank

Most of this stuff is Mickey Mouse and if you lived in a developed country you'd get out on bail, get a lawyer, etc. Which would suck immensely but sure beats pound me in the ass prison.

Here's the shitty part for you (I'm quoting here from another post by another author):

"In Texas, for example, you can't get bail (even for trivial offenses)
unless you're able to hire an attorney. If you use public defender
you aren't allowed bail. (there is a case working it's way up the
appeals courts attacking the constitutiality of that, but right now
that's the way it is). That gives someone with no money a high
incentive to just plead guilty.

Example. You get arrested for some something. You don't have an
extra couple thousand dollars. So, you sit in jail for two weeks,
then finally a public defender meets you at about your third court
appearance. Your trial date is 6 months away. They offer you a deal,
you plead guilty and you'll get probation, you'll get out of jail by
the end of the week. A lot of people will take that deal, even if
they aren't guilty.

But, now you're in the system. Now you don't even have to commit a
crime to go to prison, just piss off your probation officer. Then if
you go to prison and claim you're innocent you won't get paroled
because you haven't shown remorse for your crime (the one you never
committed in the first place)"

(End Quoted material)

What I'm getting at is that it could happen to you; I'd say you're about a six pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon away from jail at any given moment, and that goes double for when you come home. Soldiers who return from war zones tend to go squirrelly for various reasons, it happens all the time. I can make a much stronger argument, but I got a feeling you're gonna pull a hissy fit and delete this anyway, so I won't bother. Anyhoo, I hope some of this is sinking in.

David St. Hubbins
Reply #6 Top
Mr. Hubbins, thank you for doing such a great job of reinforcing my point in "Come Out and Play"!!! Link

Reply #7 Top
To Greywar:
Happy Valentine's Day, baby

To St. Hubbins:
You are a jackass. No supporting statement necessary.
Reply #8 Top
To St. Hubbins:
You are a jackass. No supporting statement necessary.


I second that motion.
Reply #9 Top
#5 by David St. Hubbins
Monday, February 14, 2005





Let's try the Socratic method:

You live in Texas, right?
You like to drink booze a lot, right?
You like to yell, be obnoxious, etc., right?
You like to fight and fancy yourself a tough guy, right?
You don't back down from anyone, right?
You drive a vehicle, right?
You like guns, right?
You have an ex-wife, right?
You're in the military, and don't have a heck of a lot of disposable income lying around for a lawyer, right?
You're still a young lad, 'bout 30 I reckon, full of piss and vinegar and haven't quite gotten your "Ya Yas" out yet, right?

So let's take a break there. I'll grant you are likely an otherwise law abiding citizen, but some of your behaviour puts you at a much higher risk of getting arrested than your less bellicose fellow citizens. Statistically, if you do end up in jail I think it would be for one the following reasons:

-Drunk and disorderly
-Drunk driving
-Drugs (although you don't seem like the crank type, you could be wrong place/time)
-Assault
-Firearms violations
-Torturing Iraqis (hey, I got a troll quota to meet here)
-Soliciting a prostitute
-Doemstic dispute. Keep in mind you don't actually have to hit or even threaten to hit a woman, if the police are called via 911 to any kind of domestic argument in many jurisdictions they *must* press charges, no exceptions, and you must go to jail.
-Fake claim of abuse, etc. from hormonally charged current girlfriend/spouse
-Fake claim of abuse, etc. from vengeful ex-wife, mistress, or other miscellaneous skank

Most of this stuff is Mickey Mouse and if you lived in a developed country you'd get out on bail, get a lawyer, etc. Which would suck immensely but sure beats pound me in the ass prison.

Here's the shitty part for you (I'm quoting here from another post by another author):

"In Texas, for example, you can't get bail (even for trivial offenses)
unless you're able to hire an attorney. If you use public defender
you aren't allowed bail. (there is a case working it's way up the
appeals courts attacking the constitutiality of that, but right now
that's the way it is). That gives someone with no money a high
incentive to just plead guilty.

Example. You get arrested for some something. You don't have an
extra couple thousand dollars. So, you sit in jail for two weeks,
then finally a public defender meets you at about your third court
appearance. Your trial date is 6 months away. They offer you a deal,
you plead guilty and you'll get probation, you'll get out of jail by
the end of the week. A lot of people will take that deal, even if
they aren't guilty.

But, now you're in the system. Now you don't even have to commit a
crime to go to prison, just piss off your probation officer. Then if
you go to prison and claim you're innocent you won't get paroled
because you haven't shown remorse for your crime (the one you never
committed in the first place)"


The sad thing is, the last two paragraphs are TRUE.
Reply #10 Top
Relax, people. Greywar is a big boy and can handle Bad Ol' St. Hubbins by himself, no need for a swarmfest. The author has made a blog about prison reform and I've taken the time to research and write my thoughts on the mattter. I don't particularly like Greywar but I've made an effort to try to be civil and make my point.

EstrogenLass, you've been warned once by the admins about trolling Greywar's blog; smarten up or I'll have a word with Brad. FakeDoc and Ted, please stop biting my ankles and following me around from thread to thread adding nothing to the conversation. Thanks.

David St. Hubbins
Reply #11 Top
Can I add something without being told I'm an ankle nipper, please?
DSH's last two paragraphs are right on the money.

That's all I wanted to say....thanks.
Reply #12 Top
EstrogenLass, you've been warned once by the admins about trolling Greywar's blog; smarten up or I'll have a word with Brad. FakeDoc and Ted, please stop biting my ankles and following me around from thread to thread adding nothing to the conversation. Thanks.

David St. Hubbins


It's not about "swarmfest" or even what you said. If you have so much to say, try actually blogging instead of Sniping pot shots at others. Since you don't have a blog, the most I can do is respond to your postings in other's articles. I, for one, am not "following you around", I'm merely responding to what I read. Afterall, I did take the opportunity to thank you didn't I? ;~D
Reply #13 Top
Ted, Greywar get really pissy when people stray off topic on his blog, but you're being rather persistent, so...

Funny thing is, I wrote a comment this morning on your 'why do people post anon?' blog, I think I saved a text file (many of my better posts get deleted before my personal archivist Dr. Miller YellowTexts the shit out of them, so I save a copy). Ah, here it is, I'm reading it now. Oh yeah: I couldn't find a "nice" way to say "your logic is weak and deserves to be ridiculed", so I didn't bother posting it. Seriously. It also references a lot of crap that went down before you joined JU and on second thought I decided that didn't need to be rehashed. And finally, I've seen your debating style in other threads and - there's no nice way to say this - you argue at the level of a seven year old and I prefer a more mature and robust debate opponent. There, you finally goaded me into saying something nasty, are you happy now?

David St. Hubbins
Reply #14 Top
To St. Hubbins: You are a jackass. No supporting statement necessary.


I triple that motion. You managed to alienate a LOT of people in your diatribe, St H. People you know very little about.

Reply #15 Top
Funny thing is, I wrote a comment this morning on your 'why do people post anon?' blog, I think I saved a text file (many of my better posts get deleted before my personal archivist Dr. Miller YellowTexts the shit out of them, so I save a copy). Ah, here it is, I'm reading it now. Oh yeah: I couldn't find a "nice" way to say "your logic is weak and deserves to be ridiculed", so I didn't bother posting it. Seriously. It also references a lot of crap that went down before you joined JU and on second thought I decided that didn't need to be rehashed. And finally, I've seen your debating style in other threads and - there's no nice way to say this - you argue at the level of a seven year old and I prefer a more mature and robust debate opponent. There, you finally goaded me into saying something nasty, are you happy now?


I can now die a happy man!!! ;~D
Reply #16 Top
Thanks for the courageous, well-reasoned, and insightful input, XTine and others. I'm waiting for greywar's mom, commanding officer, and 6th grade teacher to join the swarm before writing an aggregate response.

David St. Hubbins
Reply #17 Top

Greywar, while I fully understand and agree with the root of the word 'Penal' for punishment, and that the prisoners need to be punished, I still have to ask what happens when they get out?  For Lifers with no parole, yea throw away the key.

But the others are going to get out some day.  Unless we at least give them the opportunity to get a job once out, they will just go back to their old ways.

I am not saying coddle them, but do give them an opportunity while behind bars to learn a trade or get some education.

Note, I did say opportunity.  Many will not take it,but if they take the initiative, that speaks a lot for them not wanting to go back given a chance.

Reply #18 Top
remember what a prison is meant to be in the first place.


a workhouse for debtors and troublesome vagrant farm evictees? a place where transgressors were forced to labor in hopes of correcting their antisocial tendencies? or to remain long enough to repent? (penitentiary describes the purpose as well as the location.)

the concept of imprisoning lawbreakers is relatively new (until about 400 years ago, criminals were caned, tortured or shipped outta their native countries; jails were reserved for debtors, those awaiting trial, political enemies of the state and religious heretics.)

america led the world in building reformatories with christian humanists (the quakers chief among them) in the vanguard.

unfortunately we now lead the world in both the number of citizens incarcerated as well as rate of incarceration by % of population.

we could do worse than to take a lesson from canada.
Reply #19 Top
St. Hubbins,

It's rather obvious that you come up with your own conclusions without evidence. Some of your "assumptions" about Greywar are correct, but others are quite off-base, and clearly a manifestation of your own belief system of what a "red-stater" or "conservative" are.

Yes, Greywar lives in Texas. The military sent him there. He did not move there due to an overwhelming desire to live in the south. In fact, he's from a northern state that tends to be quite independent.

Yes, he has been known to drink a bit from time to time, as he has admitted to in some of his posts. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "likes to drink booze, a lot" though. But maybe it does. I'll give you that one.

Not sure where you got the "you like to yell, be obnoxious" from, however. Greywar has admitted to verbal jousting with other people, and verbal intimidation, but I don't recall him mentioning yelling at people, or being generally obnoxious. Of course, his viewpoints are probably obnoxious to you, so you interpret him as being obnoxious on purpose, and enjoying it. I interpret it as him voicing his viewpoint.

Where the hell did you come up with "you like to fight, and fancy yourself a tough guy"? I recall Greywar mentioning once that he got into a little wresting match with a guy, but that's it. I also recall him clearly stating that he's NOT the most physically intimidating person, which is EXACTLY why he uses verbal jousting to control situations. He specifically steers away from violence. But again, your view of a "redneck southerner" requires a violent, drinking bigot now, doesn't it? Give it up. Same thing with Greywar "not backing down from anyone". Yes he does, when the situation requires it. He'll stand up for himself and his troops, when it's a cause he believes in. This isn't a case of Greywar letting his balls get the best of him, it's him standing up for his beliefs.

I also don't know where you get your idea of him being a gun fanatic. Yes, he's fired a number of weapons. HE'S A SOLDIER. He has annual weapon qualification requirements....DUH! That doesn't make him a card carrying member of the NRA. Knowledge of and proficiency with a number of firearms is a requirement that he lives with, not that he lives for.

It's quite clear to me that you are really trying to put Greywar into a preconceived notion of what a conservative soldier is, instead of considering all of the information he has provided in his posts, and evaluated it to determine what kind of person he really is. Go back and read some of his posts. While I don't always agree with everything he says, and Lord knows I don't always agree with the way he lives his life, I see him for the person he is, and respect him for it. Wish you could do the same.

Reply #20 Top
a workhouse for debtors and troublesome vagrant farm evictees? a place where transgressors were forced to labor in hopes of correcting their antisocial tendencies? or to remain long enough to repent? (penitentiary describes the purpose as well as the location.) the concept of imprisoning lawbreakers is relatively new (until about 400 years ago, criminals were caned, tortured or shipped outta their native countries; jails were reserved for debtors, those awaiting trial, political enemies of the state and religious heretics.)


Yes, Kingbee, I meant the relatively new purpose of prisons. Prisons should be reserved for seperating the violent and repeat offender from society. My point was that locking away non violent offenders niether makes sense, nor satisfies the demands of justice. It has merely become the path of least resistence for judges and lawmakers.

unfortunately we now lead the world in both the number of citizens incarcerated as well as rate of incarceration by % of population.


Well, since we lock away people for everything from marijuana residue on a pipe to defending oneself with a gun in the wrong city, of course we are going to lead the world in percentage incarcerated. Think about it, is Martha Stewart really being punished for her crimes? Her sentence didn't fit the crime. What should have happened, since her crimes were based on the stock market and her company, her entire stock portfolio should have been seized and sold off, and she should have been barred from any stock activity for a certain number of years, and a restraining order put between her and anyone involved in her company. Furthermore, she would be banned from media appearances that would tend to help her capitalize on her crimes or conviction.

Of course, all that would actually make sense, and take a little thought. I know that's asking a lot of our judicial system, but hey, I guy can dream the impossible. ;~D
Reply #21 Top
Think about it, is Martha Stewart really being punished for her crimes? Her sentence didn't fit the crime. What should have happened, since her crimes were based on the stock market and her company, her entire stock portfolio should have been seized and sold off, and she should have been barred from any stock activity for a certain number of years, and a restraining order put between her and anyone involved in her company. Furthermore, she would be banned from media appearances that would tend to help her capitalize on her crimes or conviction.


makes a whole lotta sense to me (altho i still gotta nice warm feeling on those few occasions when i remember where shes at today so i'm thinkin all of the above + a lil stretch at club fed).

i agree totally with you as to the reasons you've mentioned for us being well on our way to making incarceration the biggest service industry goin. (in a weird way, thoreau's response to emerson may have been more prophetic than either of them could ever have imagined.)
Reply #22 Top

They offer you a deal,
you plead guilty and you'll get probation, you'll get out of jail by
the end of the week. A lot of people will take that deal, even if
they aren't guilty.

     You plead guilty, you are guilty or criminally stupid. Should we start enlisting the large number of telepaths who live among us to read your mind regarding the veracity of what you confess to?

 

     As for non-violent offenders? I don't buy into the non-inarceration argument there either... Should a CO who steals millions through illegal trading or illegal benefits get away with a fiduciary slap on the wrist just because he was in a comfy position to do steal without having to hold someone up at knife point? If anything his crime is more damaging than a muggers crime. How many family incomes did he destroy? How many people did he force into the street? If a guy carjacking someone deserves prison (and they do) then so do "white-collar" criminals.

 

     Davey - As for me ending up in prisoner for being  gun-toting southerner? Well I think that has been sucessfully fisked by others here but thanks for playing along. Also keep in mind the edict about keeping your comments short and pithy. Want to pen a page long screed for a response? Fine, do it on your blog and leave a link. Oh wait, you can't because you are banned from here for being disruptive, rude, and generally unable to abide by simple rules a 4 year old wouldn't have problems with. Bye Dave.

Reply #23 Top
What got me was one article where they talked about a prisoner being on medications to prevent him from seeing the child he had raped and killed over and over in his dreams.

Well, there's a REASON that he saw that child over and over in his dreams...it's called GUILT...and it's RIDICULOUS that they would medicate it away.
Reply #24 Top

What got me was one article where they talked about a prisoner being on medications to prevent him from seeing the child he had raped and killed over and over in his dreams.

Are you serious?  That is stupid!  But as for the medication, I hear lead works wonders in that respect.

HOw stupid are we going to get?

Reply #25 Top
Woooooooooosh.

That's the sound of the point going over your head.

I'm satisfied that a reasonable person reading this thread would conclude that I make a strong, on-topic argument in a reasonably civilized manner, and that the ensuing comments (you're a jackass, southerner stereotype, etc.) directed toward me are childish, illogical, overly emotional, irrational, evidence of weak reading comprehension skills and/or inability to separate reason from passion, and completely miss the pont of my post.

David St. Hubbins