Draginol Draginol

Didn't you know capitalism was bad?

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Didn't you know capitalism was bad?

Trolls on a mission..

from JoeUser Forums

..I'm in a ranting mood...stand back! ;)

Over the years I've noticed a pretty consistent thing - there are people who really really have a problem with the concept of people making a living selling software.

As a result, some of these people make it their mission to go out and harass people (like me) who make a living selling software. 

One example came up today. I am a news moderator on the popular tech news site Neowin.net. I think it's a fantastic site with an incredible staff of volunteers.  But it has a sizeable user population of "l33t" users who a) Think they know everything on tech because, well they're 19 years old and they know everything doncha know? and b) Non-free software is the devil and any level of nastiness is justified to thwart the purveyers of evil.

One guy today went so far to create an account called "ToadLad" (my account name there is "Frogboy"). Get it? Toad = Frog. Lad = Boy.  Very clever...

Since I post software news on Neowin I also post Stardock's press releases too. On other sites, our media relations goddess does this. But since I'm a news moderator on Neowin, it makes sense for me to go ahead and do this since, essentially I would be the one who would end up approving the final news item.

But this guy went onto a rant that essentially went like this "You just love to spam the world with your crap? You've already got Stardock.com and WinCustomize.com? Why do you have to spam your stuff here?" Here being a Technology NEWS site. And spam being news for software that is (god forbid) not free.

For those not ambitious enough to create fake users to troll the comments, you also have the people who insist on trying to rationalize that any good commercial product has a freeware equivalent.  Photoshop? Oh, the Gimp is much better. Terminal Server? Loser, VNC.  WindowBlinds? No, just hack your uxtheme.dll.  And now with our upcoming Multiplicity program we've got the same crowd chimes in with "Oh, you can do the same thing with Synergy!"

In most of these cases (almost all these cases) these "l33t" users have never actually used the commercial product (see "evil" above).  But they just know because they know everything.  Who cares if the "Free" program has a lot fewer features or is flakey or requires hours of setup time to work? When you're 19, time is all that matters and $20 or whatever is big money to someone who's source of income is their mom. 

I have nothing against free software. I use a lot of free software.  In fact, I use free software whenever I can. I'll take free over commercial any day if it does what I need it to do.  But there is nothing inherently magical about free software. And the downside is that most free software I run into (not all of course, there are very well known examples) have the 80% problem.  They work -- almost.  They tend to often be more proof of concept.

"Sure the screen flickers when you switch desktops and you can't play a full screen game while using it and you have to configure the machines using a text file with arcane configuration fields and it sometimes disconnects for no reason requiring you to reboot...but...it's free!"

I don't think I have a problem so much with the people who try to promote a freeware program. Hey, more power to them. I take the view that people who might potentially buy our product will try out the free alternative, try ours and make their own conclusion.

What I do have a problem with are the people who intentionally go out of their way to try to stifle my right to promote our software.  The double-standards really irritates me. As if free software somehow deserves special treatment because it's "free".  I don't think users should make such distinctions in terms of what gets reported, only in terms of when someone makes a decision on what to actually use.

253,548 views 124 replies
Reply #26 from WinCustomize Forums Top
They probably get their games off BearShare or Limewire.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top

Again, Linking Communism With Theft. Erm OK. Plus Calling It Socialist Crap Is No Better Than a person That Says They Hate Racists Then Turns Around And Calls a Police Officer a Pig.

I like that WowFactor.  Thanks.  I am going to use it.

SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top

Fuzzy Logic isn't young enough to know everything

Fuzzy Logic is very wise.

Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top

I disagree. Frankly, I had never heard of Stardock, WC, et al, until I came to JoeUser. Since JoeUser is a FREE site, it makes sense that somehow it should be linked to the parent company (it also gives users of the parent company a forum to discuss problems they have with software and read about latest developments; far more interactive than the dry info sites of most software companies...I happen to like it!).

I agree totally Gid.  I came to JU from DailyRotation, But I do like the Technical posts and I am actually thinking of getting the Political Machine for 08! Some liberal talked me into it!

Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top
From the position of those of us who use the WC forums. The connection with JU has allowed a "point of entry" so to speak for spamming the forum. There is also a bit of confusion at times as to whether a JU article is a request for help or just a rant. There is no easy way to tell if something is a JU article or WC forum post. It might help us if they are given their own section. I can understand why Stardock has it all tied together. I'm not asking they be separated, I just don't wish to be an unknowing blogger.
Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Lantec
Personally I've NEVER come across free software. Either I've gotten a program that was a CRIPPLED advertisement for a better version or I've received a program that constantly DISPLAYS advertising while I use it or I had to go to a site filled with advertising to obtain it.


Come on Man, you've got Developer in your Identity. Surely you have SourceForg in your Favorites? http://sourceforge.net/index.php [SourceForge.net] There's more Freeware there than you can shake a stick at. Roughly 104507 Projects in the works.


Brad
For those not ambitious enough to create fake users to troll the comments, you also have the people who insist on trying to rationalize that any good commercial product has a freeware equivalent. Photoshop? Oh, the Gimp is much better. Terminal Server? Loser, VNC. WindowBlinds? No, just hack your uxtheme.dll. And now with our upcoming Multiplicity program we've got the same crowd chimes in with "Oh, you can do the same thing with Synergy!"


Here is another marginaliztion and over generalization. You are trying to wrap, someone that believes that your products have equivalant alternatives, in the same guise as that of someone that is purposfully attempting to elicit purposefully, a series of incitefull and pointless comments (Troll.) This is nothing more than a slam attempt to dilute your detracors arguments.


You say this is a 'RANT' what is actually is Sir, is a thinly disguised biggoted Statement. Any attempts to paint it otherwise is a falseness. You think you are being an advocate for StarDocks products right now, but you are doing a disservice to yourself and your Company.


Need proof?
I have nothing against free software. I use a lot of free software. In fact, I use free software whenever I can. I'll take free over commercial any day if it does what I need it to do. But there is nothing inherently magical about free software. And the downside is that most free software I run into (not all of course, there are very well known examples) have the 80% problem. They work -- almost. They tend to often be more proof of concept.



Insert any Minority in there wherever you have Free Software. Gives it a different feel, doesn't it? How about throwing a Religion in there, to see how wrong it sounds? You'd be ashamed to say that in public, but when it's about software it's ok, right? Wrong! Bigotry is wrong period, and disuising it, attaching it to a Corporate website as a 'RANT', and parading it in public, is Stupid and Wrong. I think you need to rethink this thread, and apologize and be quiet.
Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top

You don't want people spamming your site and other sites don't want you spamming theirs

A Software News item in the Software News section of a Software News website is hardly spam.  If someone has a problem with Neowin's news posting policy, they should take it up with the admins. Not harass the news posters.

I was asked to be a news poster on Neowin specifically so that Neowin could get its Stardock news directly from me rather than through PR. And hence the "commercial software is evil" folks would learn this if they actually went through the proper channels there.

But I am only using Neowin as an illustration because this sort of thing happens everywhere on the net.  We're not talking about spamming some poor site's message board. We're talking about news items in the appropriate section. And those who seem to be on a mission to harass commercial developers always show up.

I'm obviously not surprised about it - I've been seeing this for years. I am just calling them out.

As for people who object to articles on commercial software being on WinCustomize, well feel free to start your own site.  No one forces someone to read this. And on the main page of WC it is a single link. Before, I used to post blogs as full news items so I would say this is a much better system for those people.

Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Cygnus, Even sourceforge has advertising. Understand, I'm not complaining, but if I have to look at any advertising then the site is not "free" They offer free software so that they can get a few advertising dollars. I do appreciate the developers of software like Spybot. The thing is obtaining the software "free". In the good old days you could get it directly from the developer at places like the compuserve forums. But if you realize that you were paying $22.50/hr for a 1200 baud connection you see it is still not free.
Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I see your argument, and then expand... Nothing is free, then. The connection cost $$$, The Computer to use free cost $$$ and so on, the progression is never ending, in a strictly adhered to argument your are 100% correct. So I will not refute you further on that point, without more defined parameters. I believe ~touche~ is the term.
Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I'm not trying to be a smarta** just wanted to point out that no matter how you try someone will make money off of your work. It's just best to let it be you.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
Your article was insightful but it has the wrong title. You never wrote about about capitalism , which is an economic system , but the selling of software. By the way, capitalism is bad, it promotes competion which creates casualties and fosters hate but, it's the best we got so, that makes it right?
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top

Your article was insightful but it has the wrong title. You never wrote about about capitalism , which is an economic system , but the selling of software. By the way, capitalism is bad, it promotes competion which creates casualties and fosters hate but, it's the best we got so, that makes it right?

You are oh so wrong.  It allows anyone with the will to get ahead.  It does not stifle creativity or production.  It fosters it.  Allowing someone to benefit from their own initiative is good, and that makes it right.  Socialism and comunism retards the creative urge of man, and shackles him with a burden not earned by him, just his fellow slackards.

Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
By the way, capitalism is bad, it promotes competion which creates casualties and fosters hate



Capitalism is an economic ideology, it cannot foster anything. Human beings foster emotional expressions, and displays of those expressions. Human Beings are directly responsible for those expressions. Capitalism cannot be resposible for anything, as I said it is an ideology. It is an inannimate representation of a Human Beings thought process, concerning a single facet of Commerce. Being inannimate it cannot there affect anything.

Also we as Americans initially tried communism, and it did not work. Don't believe me? Look into the way the very initial Settlers distrubuted their crops, chores and responsibilities. It was determined after they almost starved to death, that Capitalism was the actual way to go, and then they , survived, propered and became todays society.
Reply #39 from WinCustomize Forums Top
There is nothing wrong with free software, just like there is nothing wrong with commercial software. There are very good free products, and there are very good commercial products. There are half-arsed free products, and there are half-arsed commercial products. The main difference IMO is that when I have bugs in a free product, I shrug and I tell myself "Oh well, at least I didn't pay for this", but when I find bugs in a commecial prodcuts, I'm a bit less forgiving.
Reply #40 from WinCustomize Forums Top
man... what a thread.

must read the whole thing sometime

Oh and by the way, for those against the JU - WC joining, keep in mind that this is an article, not a forum post. WC forum is he upper most part called General. All others are a mix of JU and WC
Reply #41 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Joe - indeed, the reason this article is on both is that WC and JoeUser both share personal computing areas.  The issue isn't JoeUser but rather that WinCustomize now covers Personal Computing topics.
Reply #42 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Is that to say that all the topics under personal computing are the only WC items in both?
Reply #43 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Need proof?
I have nothing against free software. I use a lot of free software. In fact, I use free software whenever I can. I'll take free over commercial any day if it does what I need it to do. But there is nothing inherently magical about free software. And the downside is that most free software I run into (not all of course, there are very well known examples) have the 80% problem. They work -- almost. They tend to often be more proof of concept.



Insert any Minority in there wherever you have Free Software. Gives it a different feel, doesn't it? How about throwing a Religion in there, to see how wrong it sounds? You'd be ashamed to say that in public, but when it's about software it's ok, right? Wrong! Bigotry is wrong period, and disuising it, attaching it to a Corporate website as a 'RANT', and parading it in public, is Stupid and Wrong. I think you need to rethink this thread, and apologize and be quiet.

I...I...I must be misunderstanding you. Surely I misunderstand your meaning. You cannot be comparing a software that is bought and sold in the general marketplace to religion? Or to human beings? I must be wrong. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Reply #44 from WinCustomize Forums Top

LanTech:

I'll write up an article that explains in more detail but articles that are of the topic OS Customization, Personal Computing, or Internet show up on both JU and WC. Other topics aren't displayed here.  JU has something like 100 categories, 3 of which are syndicated here.

Reply #45 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Insert any Minority in there wherever you have Free Software. Gives it a different feel, doesn't it? How about throwing a Religion in there, to see how wrong it sounds? You'd be ashamed to say that in public, but when it's about software it's ok, right? Wrong! Bigotry is wrong period, and disuising it, attaching it to a Corporate website as a 'RANT', and parading it in public, is Stupid and Wrong. I think you need to rethink this thread, and apologize and be quiet.

Cygnus, do you realize how far off the deep end you are sounding? As Cordelia observes, it's pretty strange to compare software to human beings or religions.

It's like calling someone a bigot because they find that paved roads are more useable than dirt roads or that they prefer jet aircraft to propeller driven aircraft.  If anyone needs to "apologize" it's you for throwing around flame bait (such as accusing me of being "bigoted").

Most free software I download from the net has the problem of not feeling totally complete. That is an engineering/time issue. Not a "bigoted" issue. 

Perhaps if you wrote software for a living you would understand this better.  The last 20% of a software project is tedious tweakig, polish, fixing of weird behaviors, etc.  And most people who write software for free are doing it for personal enjoyment and gratification. And so that last 20% of the project, being tedious, tends not to get the attention it needs.  Commercial software, generally, gets that attention because it needs it in order to entice people to pay for it.

Reply #46 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The last 20% of a software project is tedious tweakig, polish, fixing of weird behaviors, etc.


You would think he would take his own advice and fix WC before introducing new software before people get sick of the bugs and quit subscribing and renewing subs. After all HOW long has it been since launch?

Just my .02 worth - ignore me if you wish. (after all it's just my opinion...)
Reply #47 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Paint me with your Marginal Brush, and say maybe if I wrote software... I'd truly understand what you say. That is your mode of operation. I am used to that. Maybe people will see the tactic for what it is, a tactic.

Bigotry is Bigotry, to sound redundant. Maybe I do,but it is a fact. And you are using a broad generalization and ridiculing a swath of people and a philosophy of their 'Free Software.' Too some this is equivalent to a religion, and a group of people for using 'Free Software.' It is something they believe in, and you are trying to disparage that belief. No I am not off the 'Deep End' as you put it. I am a bigot myself, and make no excuses for it, it is a part of my nature. Bigotry is a intolerable belief in something or ones own opinions. The difference here is that Brad is displaying his bigotry towards a group of people and singling them out, and drawing rediculous inferences against them. That is unacceptable. To do so against potential customers is stupid. What if one of those folks, parents are reading this. You know (the ones that fork over the $20.) Whoopsie! Shot yourself in the foot. The problem comes when one mistakes bigotry for racism. It is a common mistake, a lot of people make.
Reply #48 from WinCustomize Forums Top
CygnusXII - I agreed with you on your first opening arguments but now your just not making sense. I think it comes down to the fact that you just don't like Frogboy as a person. After all, these last few posts are borderline personal attacks or trolling...
Reply #49 from WinCustomize Forums Top
When upgrading my computer's hardware I have no choice but to pay the price, because it's a product. When I add software to my system I, once again, pay the price, because it's a product.

The test-drive we're able to take with a software's free version gives us a freedom we've likely never had before when it comes to making purchases: the freedom to try BEFORE we buy. It used to be that you'd go out and buy a new program that you'd heard great things about only to discover after buying it for yourself that it wasn't all you had hoped it would be, leaving you not only disappointed, but out a hundred bucks.

After evaluating the free version of WindowBlinds I chose to pay for the full version because I found it to be a great product that did all I had hoped it would do and more. If Object Desktop were free I'd be happy as a clam, but then again, if it were free who would have the enormous amount of time it took to develop it?

Charging a reasonable price enables the creators to devote their time to writing upgrades, add-ons, and new products for us to use. If they weren't charging us for the software they'd likely be spending a great deal of their time burning themselves out in a cubicle somewhere trying to make a living.

Personally, I'd rather have these folks working on their current projects.They're doing a great job and they're providing us with a great product. If you're poor as hell, like I am, then do what I did and set aside a buck or two here or there. It took me almost three months to save up and I'm glad I did, I got my money's worth.
Reply #50 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Also since none of us here is a CEO, worker or whatever else it is you do at StarDock, we cannot understand what you are trying to say. Your "you're not a programmer" comment does not carry weight. You've never walked in my shoes, you've never walked in the l33t 19 year olds shoes, and aparrently you are not walking in the Parents shoes, that forks over $20 for software, by the blatant disregard you are showing towards that type of percieved group. As I stated earlier, you need to apologize and be quiet. I do know this (even if I do not own my own company) If I had a business and talked like you have here, I would fire you. I ran my Mothers business for Several years while she was going through Chemo Therapy, and effectively was the Owner in all but Title, and I would never talk to a Customer or potential Customer in the fashion you have and Do. Let alone put such tripe in writing.