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Goodbye, Iraq

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Goodbye, Iraq

Can Iraq Survive?

http://tabootenente.tblog.com
from JoeUser Forums
I do not live in Iraq. I've never been there, though I have spent time in the Middle East. I am not a soldier, and I do not patrol the streets of Baghdad, or fight to maintain safety while Iraqi citizens attempt to control the direction of a new government.

But news reports and military maps seem to suggest an unfortunate reality. United States and the coalition of armed forces appear to occupy only a tiny section of the whole, while insurgents continue to struggle. I cannot attest to the general sentiment among Iraqi citizens, but I feel that the overall morale must wildly fluctuate. Did the average Iraqi know for what they were voting? Can they imagine what the future will look like in ten years? Would the average Iraqi, in the privacy of prayer and hidden heart, wish for our armed forces to remain, or to leave?

Regardless of the political direction, the new government must first and foremost create a new infrastructure that will provide police and fire rescue, medical care and food production. From the perspective of a private citizen of the United States, things look bleak. What happens when our forces pull out and return to their homes? Will we have the capability, never mind the willingness, to train and support the new government?

What happens if the government restores a theocracy of some sort? Will our support continue? What if insurgents strike deep into Baghdad: will we return en masse?

Right now, I have this growing sense that, unless we maintain a permanent presence in Iraq, then the country may dissolve beyond repair. How long are we willing to remain? Do we want to remain? Should we remain?

I am very interested in a soldier's perspective right now. Those of you who continue to fight, how do you see the future? What hopes do you have that you might lend to me, a lowly, sheltered citizen of the distant United States?


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Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
Great Post Couchman. Thanks for the info, some I already knew, but some very insighful.


Yes, I really hate citing facts......as those on the left nearly explode everytime......

As to the elections...lets all remembers something thats rarely talked bout any more....For instance, just after the war, the "world" community also known as the ranting left cried that elections and return of power were not happening fast enough...but when we did...it happened too fast from the same intelectual elites....regarding the elections, we heard that if the Iraqis didnt get 100% turnout.....then the results wouldnt have been legitimate.....as if it's possible to get an average of just over 50% in the US alone (last presidential election hit 62%- a record in recent years) and on average the western world gets bout 55-60% turnout across the board....and we are not under threat of death for voting...if getting at least 50% voter turnout is good enough for the rest of the world...why wasnt it okay for iraq (when they got bout 60%). As for the UN's part or lack thereof, most of their election observers kept careful watch...from nearby nations...

The Iraqis have bout under a year to formalize and ratify a parliment, president, to vp's, a prime minister, their constitution; can we at least give them the chance at doing that before we jump at every little bit that may seem wrong from a western democracy point of view...
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top

as if it's possible to get an average of just over 50% in the US alone (last presidential election hit 62%- a record in recent years)

Dont forget, that 62% is of Rergiestered voters, which is only about half the Eligible voters.  The Iraqi number was of Eligible voters.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
scatter:

excellent response. the connection between the high voter turnout and a strong sense of "country" is very important. i thank you for reminding me.

i think that such a civil war is unlikely in the near future. not impossible, certainly, but im not sure the alignment of purpose is balanced or organized enough to produce more than the steady stream of insurgency and regular acts of isolated terrorism. but that is also one of the reasons, perhaps, that i have overlooked the connection between the high voter turnout and the sense of country. this goes back to the reason i wrote this article. all the facts (thank you couchman) and stories and maps and predicitons i get have such a slant, largly unacknowledged by whomever is producing them (sorry couchman) that i dont have any idea what sort of sentiment makes the rounds in iraqi circles.

i think it would be ridiculous to think that the iraqi people want saddam back (though i wont discount any possibility . . . someone probably longs nostalgically for the days when hoover ran the show, and, based on several unfortunate internet site encounters, there are nuttos aplenty wishing for any of the several fascist mustachios to return to finish what they started) nor should they. but what kind of purpose are they looking for? thats when my hope dies, because i have a hard time imagining that they want too much more than an assurance against looters, safe streets, and living children.

and i could not agree with you more: i would love to feel some confidence in the assumed fact that cold political analysis is taking place somewhere important.

tbt
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
helix:

good to hear from you; it's been a while, i think.

do you have a sense that the iraqi people have a common ground? it doesnt have to be a unanimous (hey, would it be "an unanimous" or "a unanimous"?) voice to survive, even in the middle east, but a strong voice will have to rise to the surface, i think. couchman doesnt think it's going to be a rabid one--and neither do i, if one ever surfaces.

tbt
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
dr. guy,

carter and bush couldnt be more different, could they? one with the retiring, inaffectual attitude and the other with the blunt, somewhat sensitive trigger finger . . . i cant imagine that carter could have done too much less to solve the problems in iran and i still have no idea what bush's motivations are. dont get me wrong: im shaky about bush in general (and im not losing sleep over the fact that kerry lost the election) but im praying that he knows what he is doing right now.

i dont want to abandon anyone. i dont want usa to remove troops until some stability returns and some concrete foundation for a future government reveals itself. even then, i would guess that leaving some force will be necessary, which breeds the question: how long will they really be content for us to be there? if it were my country, i would be searching for anything that would keep me safe at this point. but i also havent had a war taking place on my front lawn.

guy, i appreciate your comments on this thread. very thoughtful and insightful (it's too bad that i only can vote for one of these for a bonus rating) and i appreciate your even-handed patience.

tbt
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: TaBoo TenentePosted: Friday, February 11, 2005
dr. guy,

carter and bush couldnt be more different, could they? one with the retiring, inaffectual attitude and the other with the blunt, somewhat sensitive trigger finger . . . i cant imagine that carter could have done too much less to solve the problems in iran and i still have no idea what bush's motivations are. dont get me wrong: im shaky about bush in general (and im not losing sleep over the fact that kerry lost the election) but im praying that he knows what he is doing right now.

And again, you are correct.  But as my Boss told me once when promoting me "Someone has to be the company asshole, and now you are it".

Sometimes it takes a cowboy instead of a man with the best intentions.  I have no doubt that Carter meant well, but the end result was anything but.  Bus means well as well, but then he has thrown off the mantle of appeaser to get the job done.  SOmetimes that is what it takes.  We can hope he is right in this case.

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
couchman,

why is the world community the same as the ranting left? that's a huge label. are you saying that anyone who participates in international politics or society rants and has politically liberal leanings? or are you saying that anyone in the usa who considers international relations important a lefty who speaks often and insensibly?

you've got great information, though. what do you use for sources? i can never find a comprehensive, up-to-date resource, and when i try to put together a collection of sources that i respect and trust, they always contradict each other. newspapers are out of the question. all stories have the reporter first-person bias that is so trendy these days; meanwhile the popular tv reports are so highly charged by ratings that any slant they can create makes for good shows--though obviously some found out recently that you can get in trouble without substantiating their leads.

do you have internet sites bookmarked or a news channel that you find to be un-biased? beyond the current events scene, you've obviously done your own research. just as obviously, you are coming from the perspective of an angry conservative who probably at some point was more moderate than conservative. maybe, like many middle-ground standing intelligent free-thinkers, you were offended by the sweeping assumptions and arrogant attitudes displayed by the left in recent years and this took all the air out of your willingness to remain unpartisan. who knows? probably you and certainly not me.

nevertheless, while im sure there are rabid packs of disgruntled, distraught liberals out there who no longer know how to face the world of politics who may in the darkness of their hearts hope that everything falls apart in iraq for the simple perverse joy of saying "hey! i told you so! remember that i told you so?" but the majority of the world--liberals, too, the ranting left, too--even among the slanted media faces that probably drive you batty, want things to work out for iraq. you know as well as i that if theres a news story to be had if only 99% of iraqis were able to vote instead of 100% then someone is going to snap it up. in an alter world where the liberal voice of the last election was slightly less high-pitched, slightly more tolerable, and hurricanes never happened when they did and george bush was making viagra commercials while john kerry was decorating the oval office, you would hear the same news stories and the same spins--this time from disgruntled conservatives on tv and radio.

that's just how it goes when money and journalistic flare are on the line. even with all of the media slant and politically winged turbo charged absolutists, people like you and like me can both hope or pray (depending on your leaning) that
we at least give them the chance at doing that before we jump at every little bit that may seem wrong from a western democracy point of view.
.

my guess is that if you think i am jumping at "every little bit that may seem wrong" then you either didnt read my article or misinterpreted my intent--which is very possible, and while i enjoy writing i do not claim to have mastered the art of expressing my thoughts the way i would like. if that is the case, then i apologize.

throughout this thread, i have looked forward to your regular comments, and i thank you for them. they are very informed. but i cant help but think that you are responding, as many people here and elsewhere are these days, to an attack from a group of people who dont actually exist under the label that you think they do.

true, i am a liberal, and i have no illusions that the liberal arrogance that has infected the democratic party in recent years hasnt affected me, too. im not perfect, that much is certain, and i was just as distraught as, say, mr. carville who hung his head like a scolded puppy dog for weeks after the election. but i am open minded and looking for hope--which i find from dialogue with people who come from a different perspective. im doing my best to keep labels out of my vocabulary because i feel that there is no worse way to limit thought and understanding than to slap a label on someone. it shows shoddy logic and comprehension, and an incomplete grasp on the realties of a very dynamic and very political world.

i hope to hear from you again on this thread, couchman. i also hope you hear my voice speaking more clearly now. feel free to defend your position, but please dont group me with a certain ranting voice that i am trying to fight for my own sake. you dont want to be grouped with the penultimate expression of conservative thought (fascism) nor do i feel any need to group myself with the liberal counterpart (probably your ranting left social democrats).

with that in mind, we can get back to the simple pieces of your responses--those that deal with hope. like you, i find that the voting process is a great place to find hope, and a very good place to start.

tbt
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
You would be WRONG! Although it did sustain damage from the volcano, that is NOT the reason it closed. It was closed at the request of the Philippine senate


Geez...calm down....did I scream you were wrong or an idiot or anything of that nature....no . I simply stated that I believed it was closed due to the volcano...or at least it was a contributing factor...man some people need to lay off caffeine
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
WOW, did i just see Guy throwing Jimmy Carter a compliment?

(scratching head) I just don't know what to say now.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top

You would be WRONG! Although it did sustain damage from the volcano, that is NOT the reason it closed. It was closed at the request of the Philippine senate


Geez...calm down....did I scream you were wrong or an idiot or anything of that nature....no . I simply stated that I believed it was closed due to the volcano...or at least it was a contributing factor...man some people need to lay off caffeine


I apologize for that. Seems no one around here likes anything that I use for emphasis on a word. Tried "" and ** and caps. Don't know what else to use. Especially since it's so hard for me to type in the first place.