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TaBoo's First Amendment to the Constitution

politics
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TaBoo Tenente
Eastern Diamondback
Join Date 10/2004
0
Reply #51 February 7, 2005 3:24:50 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
nevertheless, to imagine that the fact that woman does not derive from the masculine root is a dangerous and inaccurate way to conceive of language.


If you're really interested in the man-woman link, I'll be more than happy to explain. In Old English, the term man means "human; of the human species."
The proper OE term for "male human" is wer or werman and the terms for "female human" were "wif" or "wifman," with wif being the basis for the Modern English wife. Wer began disappearing sometime in the Middle English period.

The PIE word for woman was g(w)en-A. Germanic labiovelars like "g(w)-" became "kw-" through sound change. This is the origin of the word queen.

Woman does not derive from "adult male human" like Eve was born of Adam's rib.



I'd also like to add that language isn't "every conceivable system." Language is a completely arbitrary system of codes which are enchipered and deciphered by speakers. A smile is a form of communication. Laughter is not a form of language, as it is recognized as the same thing by all people of all cultures. An American woman in Seattle and Dinka tribesman in the Sudan both recognize it. All social animals have forms of communication, but not all animals have language. Language is product of our minds and our evolution. Our brains are hard wired for language, just as it is for culture (of which language is an extraordinarily influential part).
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TaBoo Tenente
TaBoo Tenente
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Reply #52 February 7, 2005 1:06:16 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
easter diamondback,

first of all, i thank you very much for your post. this is the kind of discussion that makes me very happy. obviously you have studied this issue, and that seems to promise some liveliness when i offer the following proposition (just a friendly debate, okay?):

nevertheless, to imagine that the fact that woman does not derive from the masculine root is a dangerous and inaccurate way to conceive of language.If you're really interested in the man-woman link, I'll be more than happy to explain. In Old English, the term man means "human; of the human species."The proper OE term for "male human" is wer or werman and the terms for "female human" were "wif" or "wifman," with wif being the basis for the Modern English wife. Wer began disappearing sometime in the Middle English period.The PIE word for woman was g(w)en-A. Germanic labiovelars like "g(w)-" became "kw-" through sound change. This is the origin of the word queen.Woman does not derive from "adult male human" like Eve was born of Adam's rib.


I am not sure this is the point, especially if you are explaining a feminist take on language. The study of language involves accepting the condition of "entities". Formalists may not recognize the OBJECT or even the OTHER as integral to language, while post-structuralists, like Walter Benjamin, believe that there is no language whatsoever without communication.

The feminist take talks about two functions of a masculine language. The first function is the function of making the woman invisible or subordinate. You have explained the literal, physical origins of the terms "man" and "woman" as they developed through the evolution of english. but this is not the "system". Consider these sentences: (1)Man has two sexes; some men are female; (2)Man breastfeeds his young; (3)Ask the candidate about his husband or wife. Obviously, each of these sentences are grammatically correct, and the third sentence appears to make an attempt at some modern linguistic social equality. But just as obviously, these three sentences reveal that these terms are NOT gender-neutral, and the female aspect is subordinated. Why is this so, if the "man" and "woman" terms are separate? The reason is a function of our SYSTEM, which is not english. it is the system that subordinates "female" to "male".

That was the first function. The second function of a masculine language system is to normalize the masculine. Consider words like "doctor" and "waiter" and "steward". Are they gender specific? Most spoken languages add conditional terms to nouns in general, apparently for clarification. "Waitress", and "stewardess" are obviously english, female constructions based on the normalized male root. You can search for the origins in language, but it does not explain the SYSTEM, which, again, developes through a child's development, creating the dual component of "sign" and "symbol". The system subordinates the female and normalizes the male. These things affect the way our children, and thus the way we think--and also the way our culture evolves.

If you are interested, here is a more in-depth critique of feminist linguitics: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-language/
Link.

By the way, I very much like your laughter example, although I would disagree with the concept of arbitrary systems. I like Dr. Jung's perspective on the origins of symbols. According to the dualistic theory, neither aspect (sign or symbol) is arbitrary, though the sign is absolutely subjective.

tbt
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TaBoo Tenente
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Reply #53 February 7, 2005 1:11:40 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
i forgot to make my case with the word "doctor". The link above suggested that the British use this term: "Lady doctor". Can anyone from England verify this?

tbt
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TaBoo Tenente
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Reply #54 February 7, 2005 4:31:01 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums




its amazing what can happen to postings like these...
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TaBoo Tenente
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Reply #55 February 7, 2005 7:03:17 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
what seems funny to me is the fact that at first, something may seem like an on-topic response can end up as a crazy tangent. let me see: freedom of expression to censoring to political correctness to systems of language. quite a feat for 50 some-odd comments!

tbt
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