You smoke? You're fired! at least for one company....

terpfan1980

Join Date 08/2004

+13

You smoke? You're fired! at least for one company....

Headline is linked from WRAL.com - News site

Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke

Michigan Firm Won't Allow Smoking, Even On Employee's Own Time

UPDATED: 8:20 AM EST January 25, 2005

LANSING, Mich. -- Four employees of a health care company have been fired for refusing to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes.
Weyco Inc., a health benefits administrator based in Okemos, Mich., adopted a policy Jan. 1 that allows employees to be fired if they smoke, even if the smoking happens after business hours or at home.
Company founder Howard Weyers has said the anti-smoking rule was designed to shield the firm from high health care costs. "I don't want to pay for the results of smoking," he said.
The rule led one employee to quit before the policy was adopted. Four others were fired when they balked at the smoking test.
Chief Financial Officer Gary Climes estimated that 18 to 20 of the company's 200 employers were smokers when the policy was announced in 2003. Of those, as many as 14 quit smoking before the policy went into effect. The company offered them help to kick the habit.
"That is absolutely a victory," Climes said.
On the company's (linked) Web site, it states:
Weyco Inc. is a non-smoking company that strongly supports its employees in living healthy lifestyles.

Wow!

So, working for this employer, even if you smoke on your own time, outside work, you will not be employed there? Sign me up please! (just kidding, maybe?!)

Seriously, smoking is a serious health issue. I worked in an environment where I was constantly subjected to outrageous amounts of second hand smoke for years. Even when the company that I worked for got stupid and installed a batch of "smoke eaters" I was quietly hoping that they'd wise up and just institute a "no smoking" policy, and not so quietly asked multiple times that our management designate some areas as smoking and some as non-smoking so I wouldn't have clean up behind the filthy lazy smokers that couldn't be bothered to clean up their own ash droppings. I saw nicotene stains on very expensive computer equipment that I was partly responsible for maintaining, and -- as a participant in the company's ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan) plan -- was a "part owner" of.

I've been forever thankful that the Federal Government has banned smoking in it's work places, and that (in one of the few instances I like "progressiveness") states like Maryland have banned smoking in the work place -- including most restaurants and bars (meaning I can go out and eat at a restaurant and actually taste the food, rather than the smoke).

But, what individuals do on their own time -- within reason and legality -- should be their own chosing.

I support an employer's right to decide on whom they wish to have working for them, though some employers may make stupid, racist, biggoted decisions on hiring, or discriminate for other reasons which would make me uncomfortable doing business with them.

But, and it's a big but (as opposed to a big cigarette butt), I think employees have a right to choose to kill themselves slowly via cigarettes if they wish, and they shouldn't lose their jobs over the fact that they smoke outside the work place.

Call me crazy, but I can see very easily where eventually employees that can't stay physically fit will be discriminated against. Where employees that have a genetic disposition towards cancer or other illnesses that might keep them out of work could be discriminated against, etc.

I expect the case of these employees will find it's way into the court system, and it'l be interesting to see how it progresses. But I fear the slippery slope this could put us on.

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Reply #54 By: msladydeath - 1/26/2005 8:09:40 PM
UPDATE!

Aparently this company's next step (as reported on the radio this evening) is to terminate the obese employees also, since the obese are quickly passing up smokers in health care costs. According to the peice, obese people miss more workdays, are sick more often, are more likely to become disabled, and have more long term illnesses (ie. diabetes).

Does anyone else see this as a very wrong slippery slope? As my mom said earlier, are they going to tell people they can only have sex if they use condoms, or only hire women that can no longer have children, since their insurance is higher?

*I* can see it, but I seriously doubt that most of the others will.

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my mistake, double posted

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Oh, I see the slippery slope, I just also see the other slippery slope. The one that has been going on for decades now, in the form of us insisting that our employers foot the bill for our healtcare coverage. So far, what we have gotten for it is skyrocketing health insurance costs (since we have been under the illusion that, since someone else is paying for it, it doesn't matter what it costs); and through the roof medical costs (since again, we have been under the illusion that since someone else is paying them, it doesn't matter how high they go).

Isn't it a bit telling that only recently, when employers started shifting more of the cost of insurance to the employees, do we wake up and discover a healthcare cost crisis. Hmmmmmmmm

I am still torn on this one (since the infringement of are personal time is obvious here), however I can't help but notice (with 20/20 hindsight) how shortsighted we have been, and now that it's going to cost us something, it suddenly matters.

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I have never had company paid for insurance, so I guess I just don't qualify, or it could be the fact I just never worked for a company that offered anything other than AFLAC. I don't think companies should have to offer health insurance, but the ones that do will get the better and more loyal employees. I do, however, think that they should offer employees assistance in finding decent insurance, and offer to have the money to pay said insurance deducted straight from their paychecks so it is less likely to lapse. but that is just the opinion of a single member of a still young generation.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Aparently this company's next step (as reported on the radio this evening) is to terminate the obese employees also

Do you have a source for that? From what I heard (which I live in Michigan) that the whole thing of their next step with firing obese is completely false. It was a rumor started by one of the ones who were fired.

Another reason why I think it is false- "obesity" is considered a disability. (slippery slope ParaTed2k is talking about).

We are really missing a big picture. Americans are an unhealthy nation. I have been watching a lot of History shows and other shows concerning how lifestyles have changed over the decades. This upcoming generation (the ones who are about 30-40 years old right now) is the first generation that is expected to live a shorter life than their parents. We are unhealthy and we expect that to be our "right". Let society take care of us when we need it, right? Everyone wants great healthcare, but nobody wants to pay the price.

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No KarmaGirl, I think it’s you that is missing the big picture here. This is about a company saying if you want to come to work for us we will only pay you 40 hrs a week but we will own every moment you take breath on this earth. Americans are also bad at managing their own finances. What next? (And there’s always a next), No paychecks only vouchers for approved housing and dietary requirements. Coupons that can only be redeemed at approved stores. We cannot give corporations or government this level of control over our lives. Corporations do not have our best interest at heart. It’s business not personal right? Corporations will systematically devalue human life until we are nothing more than company equipment. This is slavery. After all it’s corporations that brought us alcohol tobacco and fast food in the fist place. Slippery slope indeed, right down into a basket of hell.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

It’s business not personal right? Corporations will systematically devalue human life until we are nothing more than company equipment.

Oh, please. Are you serious? Have you paid any attention at all to the laws that surround employing people? Have you not read any of the reports of corporations helping people? many corporations believe that a healthy, happy employee is good for business and for society. How does a company based on consulting corporations healthy living styles who instates a no smoking policy (whom also helped people quit who wanted to stay employed) end up turning us into slaves?

Corporations don't have to have any level of control over our lives. If you don't want to work for "the man" why not start your own business and make your own policies?

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You know, the funny thing is that I worked for a company that was starting a similar policy, though not quite as Draconian.

In my case, the employer was based in Maryland/DC-metro area. They created a policy that outlawed smoking on company premises -- including smoking in your own car (sometimes referred to as POV, privately owned vehicle). Meaning, you couldn't smoke in your car once you were on company premises.

That particular employer liked to play big-brother in other ways too, including having a CEO that liked to act like an elementary school principle that was checking attendance and trying to find out who was tardy and didn't fit the Stepford wives model that was supposed to be perfect and keep us all working at maximum efficiency.

Thankfully, I don't work for that employer any more, so I don't really have to care. Honestly, I wasn't a smoker then (never really have been) or now, but... I was concerned then about personal privacy and remain that way.

I brought up this topic because of my concerns for personal privacy. I understand that I might have to surrender rights in some areas (drug testing as a requirement for hiring as an example), but I give them up grudgingly.

As someone clearly notes above:

Reply #60 By: stubbyfinger - 1/27/2005 9:46:56 AM
No KarmaGirl, I think it’s you that is missing the big picture here. This is about a company saying if you want to come to work for us we will only pay you 40 hrs a week but we will own every moment you take breath on this earth.

... this is the most slippery part of the slope I see many of us on.

I know we have a free-market system, and I can simply choose to work for another employer (if possible), but that doesn't mean that I think what employers like my former one, or the one referenced in the article (from Michigan) are right or are doing the legal and moral thing.

As noted originally, smoking is a filthy habit. It does impact everyone around you, and causes costs for yourself and others to go up for health care, cleaning services, waste disposal, etc. It's not something that is an entirely private thing (as second hand smoke pollutes), but it's mostly private, and it is legal.

While I'm happy that as a consumer I now have a choice of going to restaurants in Maryland without having to walk through smoking areas to get to my non-smoking area seat, and don't have to worry that my food was brought through the smoking area to get to me, and don't have to worry about smoke wandering into my area from the smoking area that just happens to be a few feet away, that doesn't mean that I don't think smokers deserve to be left alone in their own private time.

I do fear that this will eventually lead to discrimanatory policies aimed at "fat people", and others that might not live a perfect lifestyle. And that really does scare me. I don't need my employer or their health care insurers to tell me that I am over weight and must pay for it. I already do that by virtue of having to pay for meds that help solve problems related to be over weight, and those costs are generally borne primarily by me, not others.

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I guess my opinion, I am mostly alarmed by the fact that everyone in this supposedly "freedom loving" and "privacy supporting" country doesn't seem to have a probelm with the fact that employers believe they have a right to poke around in your blood and urine if you work for them. Maybe lazy employers who think they have a right to know everything personal about you should be forced to keep their dirty noses out of your body fluids. Most employers can fire someone for almost any reason, acting drunk, missing work, seeming to be stoned, that should be enough, the don't need to start doing medical tests on you for christ's sake.

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My opinion,
Leagalize marijuana
Make cigaretts illegal!

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people have the right to smoke just like people have the right to drink if they band smoking then they should band drinking!
Linda

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Oh, please. Are you serious? Have you paid any attention at all to the laws that surround employing people? Have you not read any of the reports of corporations helping people?

Yes I’m serious. Why do you think we have all those laws about employing people? The companies didn’t make them. Why do you think we spend billions every year to enforce employee’s rights and environmental laws if they’re all such good corporate citizens. Big Tobacco is proof that the government can be powerless to stop them from harming us to make a profit. The next thing will be alcohol. Which cost employers much more than tobacco. The health problems that arise from smoking usually don’t require medical attention until after retirement. Drinking on the other hand causes huge amounts of lost productivity. Then next of course will be diet and exercise. And what happens when what’s good for the company isn’t good for us? Do you think we can depend on the government to stop them? How is that lawsuit going against big tobacco? Do you think they’ll win in our lifetime?

Corporations don't have to have any level of control over our lives. If you don't want to work for "the man" why not start your own business and make your own policies?

Even now many Americans really have no reasonable choice about whom they work for. There are entire towns supported by one or two companies throughout America. All these people are not going to just start their own business or move if they don’t like the company polices get real.

I think its great the companies are trying to help make their employees healthier. They can even demand that you follow their guidelines for healthy living. Even though there motivations for doing so are to get more and better work out of us and keep us healthy at least until after we retire. My point is that policy cannot extend to my off company time life.

I realize that health care cost is a huge burden on companies and something needs to be done. But giving them power over our personal lives to fix it is like handing your wallet to a drug dealer and saying okay only sell me as much as I need.

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Reply #70 By: Helix the II - 1/28/2005 10:27:00 AM
We are not machines or cogs in the corporate machine, atleast not unwillingly. We will never become unwilling slaves. We're too proud for that and would actually revolt before letting that happen. We sell ourselves short, spread ourselves thin, and frequently harm ourselves with our work ethics, but like smoking, we have a choice about it. You may not enjoy the idea of the alternative lifestyle, but it does exist and nobody forces you not to go for it.

Ahhh. But see they are being forced. The company changed the rules in the middle of the game. If the employees wish to keep their jobs then they are being forced to change. In this day and age *nobody* in their right mind can afford to walk away from ANY job! Problem is the company knows this! And they are using that leverage to change company policy to suit themselves.

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If people didn't break the terms set before them by their employer, if people didn't try to be sneaky, lie, and do all kinds of things they shouldn't (like coming to work on crack, meth, etc,.) , an employer would not have to poke in your blood and urine.

Amazing. We now think that companies HAVE to poke around in everyone's blood and urine? Talk about citizens rolling over and giving up all thier rights! If a supervisor can't tell who's coming to work impaired (on crack, meth, etc...) then the supervisor should be fired first! Very few testing methods can PROVE that you are impared on the job, like the one that these employees in the original post are refused to take. There should be no need to give up your rights to keep your body fluids private or submit to medical tests because your supervisor is to lazy to find out if you are actually doing your job!

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Did any of the people who think that this is insane actually look into what Weyco does? They are a benefits coordinator and council companies on how to raise the health standards of their employees. Am I the only one who thinks it would be hypocritical for them not to have strict policies about health? If they can't have strict policies in their own company, how can they expect others to have any policies at all?

Corporations are supposed to be run like corporations, not cults and cliques where you try and dominate peoples lives. Obesity is not a disease anymore than Smoking is. Smoking is an addiction, so is eating - you are fat because you eat too much and don't exercise. If they want to ban smokers from their company, they should ban fat people. Its usually smaller corporations that have obnoxious policies like this, and intrusive cultish mentalities. Which is probably why working at small corporations sucks. I'd sue the crap out of them if they fired me for smoking, and in fact, i'd probably start smoking if I worked there, just to prove a point. Just becuase you give someone a paycheck, doesn't give you the right to tell them how to live their lives, its a mentality that like which will make unions have a major resurgence in the coming years. Bad management is everywhere.

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Reply #73 By: JTurnas - 1/29/2005 6:33:36 PM
Did any of the people who think that this is insane actually look into what Weyco does? They are a benefits coordinator and council companies on how to raise the health standards of their employees. Am I the only one who thinks it would be hypocritical for them not to have strict policies about health? If they can't have strict policies in their own company, how can they expect others to have any policies at all?

Corporations are supposed to be run like corporations, not cults and cliques where you try and dominate peoples lives. Obesity is not a disease anymore than Smoking is. Smoking is an addiction, so is eating - you are fat because you eat too much and don't exercise. If they want to ban smokers from their company, they should ban fat people. Its usually smaller corporations that have obnoxious policies like this, and intrusive cultish mentalities. Which is probably why working at small corporations sucks. I'd sue the crap out of them if they fired me for smoking, and in fact, i'd probably start smoking if I worked there, just to prove a point. Just becuase you give someone a paycheck, doesn't give you the right to tell them how to live their lives, its a mentality that like which will make unions have a major resurgence in the coming years. Bad management is everywhere

You tell em Dude!!!

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Why is everyone "torn" on this issue, this was done plain and simple to boost the bottom line. (Right from the company) They do not care about you or your health.
So to protect the bottom line what will be next on their list? Over-weight.... talked about enough here, and eating is required it is not a choice. But what about the things
we like doing that are a choice? Should GPS be installed in your cars to ensure you are driving safely? The real question is do you want your company to monitor
your life outside of the work place, for legal activities? I fly a private plane, should I buy a black box now for company inspection? Should I present my employer with
my phone bill to ensure no 976 calls? (AIDS is a very real problem) How about a condom monitoring program to ensure I'm having safe sex? (Maybe
a little computer attached down there...) And for you women, I hear that wiping wrong can cause problems... another problem to be eradicated with a carefully placed
video camera!

I just wish I was free to find some happiness, without everyone telling me what is good for me... (Someone should write that down!)

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Be torn all you want. Put it this way. Them being fired for smoking in their own home would be like getting fired for being gay (and keeping it to home).

---> Lets do it, lets fire 'em cause they're gay!

They're fireing people for other stupid reasons, i know one thing, i would never work for that company, they just violated those peoples rights..

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I can just see where it would go, Doctors and nurses getting piss tested all the time to make sure they didn't drink any alcohol, smoke anything, were eating only healthy foods, or getting fired for not working out for a half an hour every day, having unsafe sex, and things like that. They are the Medical profession, if one company can fire an employee for smoking at home, than companies would start holding certain professionals to such a high standard of living that noone would want to be in those professions anymore. Think about being forced to live the lifestyle of the company you work for.

Think about this, People in Politics sure don't live sqeaky clean lives, better fire them all, and any athlete that smokes, chews, drinks or has unsafe sex (wow, what that would do for sports).

I just wish I was free to find some happiness, without everyone telling me what is good for me... (Someone should write that down!)

I agree!

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