I'd have no problem with them removing "under God" from the pledge, but they have to be consistent. They also must remove "In God We Trust", the All-Seeying Eye, and "Annuit Coeptis" from the dollar bill.

I think that really the "Under god" should be removed, because it really is wrong, and the In god we trust be replaced with In America we trust. The all-seeing eye could be the eye of righteousness or the eye of America or of the government, so that doesn’t have to be removed, but Annuit Coeptis needs to go too. The "Under God" was added during the Cold War with the USSR to differentiate them as an atheist nation. While this was not really fine, because we are not a "god" country, but that was then this is now. There is no need for it anymore, so out it should go. And you may notice the reason the Supreme Court refused to hear the case was they knew it was unconstitutional.

Now, though I don't personally have any problem with any of the above, as a matter of principal it isn't acceptable that this remnant from the cold war should continue with us and be forced upon the citizens as their pledge. Further, I thank the "radical" who forced the state-religion debate and removed prayer from school, because that really was inappropriate.

That's where you wrong. If the property in question is *posted* with signs they have no choice (if you call them) to arrest for criminal trespass. Call your local sheriff/police and ask them

I don't know where you live, maybe in a racist place they might arrest a black trespasser, but even here where there is no real crime the police would rather harass you for building a house on a Sunday than arrest you for trespassing by knocking on a door. They would laugh at you if you called them before you asked the person to leave. If you asked the person to leave and they didn't, then maybe they might arrest them though more likely they would forcibly remove them and send them on their way.

Reply #53 By: sandy2 - 1/10/2005 10:22:07 PM That's where you wrong. If the property in question is *posted* with signs they have no choice (if you call them) to arrest for criminal trespass. Call your local sheriff/police and ask them I don't know where you live, maybe in a racist place they might arrest a black trespasser, but even here where there is no real crime the police would rather harass you for building a house on a Sunday than arrest you for trespassing by knocking on a door. They would laugh at you if you called them before you asked the person to leave. If you asked the person to leave and they didn't, then maybe they might arrest them though more likely they would forcibly remove them and send them on their way.

Knocking on my door meant they went right by the *no trespassing signs and standing right next to one. I'm not sure about PA, but do that in upstate NY and your butt goes to jail. I personaly watched it happen I'll put it another way. Go talk to a NY State Trooper about what happens if you get caught hunting on posted property

Lee1776: Show this to your Middle East History professor. Tell him I said to lighten up.


god

n 1: the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions [syn: God, Supreme Being] 2: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force [syn: deity, divinity, immortal] 3: a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; "he was a god among men" 4: a material effigy that is worshipped as a god; "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god" [syn: idol, graven image]

Source: dictionary.com

Reply #55 By: Rightwinger - 1/11/2005 1:32:21 AM Lee1776: Show this to your Middle East History professor. Tell him I said to lighten up.

The point of my examples and the professor's is that while you as a Christian can say that "God" encompass all the other gods. To others who, are not Christian, the name "God" has been identified with the Christian deity and to them it would amount to blasphemy to call their deity by that name. What you gave from the dictionary was what the word god means. What "Under God" represents is a name, not a word.

Would you like to have your children read "Under Allah"? (Seem strange no one ever replies to that question). Allah is a name, just as God is a name too. If you really want to split hairs. The word god is written with an Upper case letter in the pledge. Implying that it is used as a Name and not a word.

That’s not even counting how it is also offensive to those that don’t believe in any deities at all. Take it out and know one will be offended (except those that want to inject Religious values through the Government and not at home or at Church where it belongs) . Many complain about the liberals injecting homosexual values through the Government, why do most of these same people have no objections to this? You can add on your own and shout “Under God” if you want to when you say the pledge, just as my professor may say Allah if he wishes. I will not disagree with you there.

That's My Two Cents

That's My Two Cents

Hmmm...this looks familiar.

The word god is written with an Upper case letter in the pledge. Implying that it is used as a Name and not a word.

So, let's specify a change, and make the entire "G-O-D" in lower case, so as not to offend. Some won't like it, of course, but at least it will still be in there, and the effort will have been made. It can be specified that it means whatever one might want it to mean.
As to those with no deity at all, I can't help them. I'll reiterate, though, the point that those with none at all are in a small minority in America, and if majority is truly to rule, as it should, then they're opinion should have no bearing whatsoever. Which is why they have to resort to using the courts to force their opinions on us. Shame on us for having the prevailing opinion on the subject. We're SO in the wrong.

This is never going to make everyone happy, of course, any way it's done.

Would you like to have your children read "Under Allah"? (Seem strange no one ever replies to that question). Allah is a name, just as God is a name too.

Well, if you really want to split hairs, Jehova (Yahweh) is the name (like Bob, Frank, Pete...His "name" name) of the Judeo-Christian God. Now, if we really want to be all-exclusive, let's change it to "under Jehova".....I'm sure that would ruffle a few feathers.

i completely concur with lee1776 and am left wondering about those of you who feel there's a legitimate conservative position here at all--much less one so important it justifies the kind of blatant semantic wriggling yall are engaging in. 

im not totally convinced in the legitimacy of a pledge of allegiance to the flag--or anything other than our consitution. (to be totally candid, it seems to me reminiscent of hitler forcing the german military to swear allegiance to him personally rather than to the german state). tossing in the 'under god' (thus making it a national prayer of allegiance) increases that concern exponentially. 

it seems to me reminiscent of hitler forcing the german military to swear allegiance to him personally rather than to the german state).

----kingbee

Pledging general loyalty to a state symbol and pledging personal loyalty to an individual leader are two very, very different things.....the American flag is the symbol of everything America (and its Constitution) stands for. In a very real sense, by pledging loyalty to it, you're pledging loyalty to your nation and its ideals ("and to the republic for which it stands"). America is also, offically mind you, a Christian nation, despite all Leftist efforts to squash or dismiss this notion.

Please tell me what's wrong with any of this; I'm sure you'll come up with something. PS---it would have been okay for the Germans to pledge an oath of loyalty to Germany, but not Hitler, right? then why is it so wrong for our people to pledge allegiance to America, via our flag? Just curious as to what, exactly, the difference is.

there's a huge divide between an icon and what that icon supposedly represents.  if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for the third commandment.  if there was a mention of the consitution in the pledge--as there is in the oath of office prescribed by the constitution--id find it much less worrisome. 

america is NOT a christian nation.  it is a secular state with a majority christian culture. if it were a christian nation, this discussion would be moot. 

when did american conservatives lose their enthusiasm for strict construction?

there's a huge divide between an icon and what that icon supposedly represents.  if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for the third commandment.  if there was a mention of the consitution in the pledge--as there is in the oath of office prescribed by the constitution--id find it much less worrisome. 

america is NOT a christian nation.  it is a secular state with a majority christian culture. if it were a christian nation, this discussion would be moot. 

when did american conservatives lose their enthusiasm for strict construction? (i dont

there's a huge divide between an icon and what that icon supposedly represents.  if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for the third commandment.  if there was a mention of the consitution in the pledge--as there is in the oath of office prescribed by the constitution--id find it much less worrisome. 

america is NOT a christian nation.  it is a secular state with a majority christian culture. if it were a christian nation, this discussion would be moot. 

when did american conservatives lose their enthusiasm for strict construction? (i dont have

there's a huge divide between an icon and what that icon supposedly represents. if that wasnt the case, there would be no need for the third commandment. if there was a mention of the consitution in the pledge--as there is in the oath of office prescribed by the constitution--id find it much less worrisome. america is NOT a christian nation. it is a secular state with a majority christian culture. if it were a christian nation, this discussion would be moot. when did american conservatives lose their enthusiasm for strict construction?

Now which side is arguing semantics?

America IS a Christian nation....the men who founded it were believers in Christ, which makes them, in turn, Christians. The nation was founded with Christian ideals and beliefs in mind. They were intelligent and far-sighted enough men, however, to make plans for the eventual inclusion and incorporation of other systems of belief, an incredibly broad-minded move for the time.
The Constitution doesn't need to be mentioned.....it's implied. Once again, I refer to "and to the republic, for which it stands". What defines the "republic" more clearly than the Constitution?

This is one of those gray areas to which liberals always seem to be blind.

the men who founded the country also made a very distinct point of not mentioning god or christ or jesus or any other diety/prophet/creator in the constitution.  some of the founders were christians...others werent.  they very deliberately created a secular state, believing that anything other than that deprived individuals of their right to believe or not believe.   youre surely not claiming men who put so much effort into precise yet artful use of the language were somehow unable to come up with 'under god'  or 'in god we trust' when deciding upon the official motto of the united states?

i owe my allegiance only to the constitution and thru it to the republic not vice-versa.

the men who founded the country also made a very distinct point of not mentioning god or christ or jesus or any other diety/prophet/creator in the constitution. some of the founders were christians...others werent. they very deliberately created a secular state, believing that anything other than that deprived individuals of their right to believe or not believe. youre surely not claiming men who put so much effort into precise yet artful use of the language were somehow unable to come up with 'under god' or 'in god we trust' when deciding upon the official motto of the united states? i owe my allegiance only to the constitution and thru it to the republic not vice-versa.

We're still talking gray areas.

I know you'd be a little hard-pressed to find any mention of a deity in the Constitution, but I stiil say that such things were implied. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been any provision for religion at all, anywhere. We'd be a completely atheistic nation.
People back then had common sense and could read between the lines. In our overly-litigious, lawyer-plagued times, we've lost that ability.


I've made my point, you've made yours....we're going back and forth over the same ground here, neither giving an inch. We're not gonna convince each other, so what's the point? Just the fun of it, huh?lol

What time is it where you are? It's pushing 5:30 AM here, and I'm getting punchy.

actually they went to great lengths trying to resolve the question of how best to protect the native right of every person to believe or not believe while spelling out the establishment clause of the first amendment.  if youre interested, a lot of the correspondence is online. 

you musta posted that about 20 mins ago cuz its 253am here on the west coast. (sorry for the delayed response...i was reading the al-quaida training manual in between checking for responses)

Also, if you want to talk constitution, the founders went to great lengths to make sure that the rights of the minority were upheld. These rights include not being forced to pledge allegience to a flag "under god". Also, please note that the founders of this country went to great length to SEPERATE church and state.

Go talk to a NY State Trooper about what happens if you get caught hunting on posted property

There is a serious difference between hunting and knocking on the door.  One is poaching, the other may be asking to borrow some sugar.

But seriously, the word God wasn't in the pledge less than 100 years ago.  The words "In God We Trust" haven't been on the money for that long either.  So, my attitude, don't get so upset about a change to a "traditional" pledge, because the tradition ain't that old.

Cheers

im not totally convinced in the legitimacy of a pledge of allegiance to the flag--or anything other than our consitution. (to be totally candid, it seems to me reminiscent of hitler forcing the german military to swear allegiance to him personally rather than to the german state). tossing in the 'under god' (thus making it a national prayer of allegiance) increases that concern exponentially.

Now, this I agree with. I don't say the pledge because I believe it to be a loyalty oath, but I don't get in a tizzy over someone else saying it.

Reply #69 By: jeblackstar - 1/11/2005 3:30:09 PM Go talk to a NY State Trooper about what happens if you get caught hunting on posted property There is a serious difference between hunting and knocking on the door. One is poaching, the other may be asking to borrow some sugar. But seriously, the word God wasn't in the pledge less than 100 years ago. The words "In God We Trust" haven't been on the money for that long either. So, my attitude, don't get so upset about a change to a "traditional" pledge, because the tradition ain't that old.

The pledge words haven't been around that long, no. But "In God we Trust" has been around since 1837, that's quite awhile. Link is to US Treasury fact sheet. And just an FYI there is a difference between hunting and poaching. Hunting is the act of looking for game to take (trespass) and poaching is the act of taking game from someone elses property without permission. So your statement doesn't hold and mine does. The day they took the 2 guys off my property they had no game in hand and they were charged with criminal trespass not poaching. In NY the charge of poaching is usually reserved for closed state land (IE: parks or game preserves).
Just an FYI the *No Trespassing* signs also say no soliciting of *any kind*.
Link

Either way, there is a serious difference between hunting and knocking on a door.  Criminal Trespass only occurs if, 1. A person has resisted an oral order by an owner to leave the property, or 2. A person has breached a physical barrier to enter the property, or 3. a person has initiated an action, though not necessarily completed it, designed to deprive the owner of the use of some portion of his property.

If your hunters cut through your fence, or even climbed over it, then they are guilty of trespass, if you have no gate on your driveway, and a man knocks on your door, police are usually not willing to arrest them.

Cheers

About the hunting issue. In my State (NV), if the person does not leave your property after one audible warning and a warning shot, you can shoot to wound (if they don't have a visable weapon).

Don't you love those old wild west laws that no one wants to remove.

Check your laws for your state. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a bible thumper or two.

That's My Two Cents

Now, this I agree with. I don't say the pledge because I believe it to be a loyalty oath, but I don't get in a tizzy over someone else saying it.

----Giddy Mackdaddy

It's fine that you don't mind others saying it, but I'm curious as to what's wrong with making an oath to uphold the ideals of your country?

The administration running the country at a given time might not hold or have earned your loyalty, but your country surely has.
When you promise your allegiance, in the pledge, you're promising to uphold the ideals of America. In a sense, I suppose, you're swearing your loyalty to the Bill of Rights. All of our ideals, more or less, are stated there. What's wrong with that?

I, at least, don't say it because I feel it's idolatry.  The supreme Court says I don't have to say it, and in fact says I can't be required to say it either.  For drmiller, Idolatry, as I and many others define, includes swearing an oath to an inanimate object, i.e. and idol.  You may not consider the flag an idol, but then what is an idol?  An inanimate object which represents a force larger than itself.

Cheers

Reply #75 By: jeblackstar - 1/11/2005 5:03:40 PM I, at least, don't say it because I feel it's idolatry. The supreme Court says I don't have to say it, and in fact says I can't be required to say it either. For drmiller, Idolatry, as I and many others define, includes swearing an oath to an inanimate object, i.e. and idol. You may not consider the flag an idol, but then what is an idol? An inanimate object which represents a force larger than itself.

I get what you're saying, but think you're reading too much into this.
You're pledging loyalty to both the flag, which is a symbol that represents our ideals, and "to the republic, for which it stands", which upholds, ostensibly, at least, those ideals.....it's not like you're praying to an idol of Baal or a golden calf, or even a statue of the Virgin Mary or a saint. You're swearing loyalty to your nation, promising not to betray that nation and to uphold its ideals. I just can't see what's so wrong with that.