Fear and Loathing In America

The Glass Isn't Half Empty Or Half Full--There Isn't One.

from JoeUser Forums
Merry Christmas, Happy Yule, Merry Hanakuk (yes, I know I butchered that), Happy Kwanzaa, and Season's Greetings. (That'll cover most everyone.)

I say this knowing full well those are the last words I'll say that won't be taken completely the wrong way. Do you remember the last time you turned the news on and there wasn't a mention of the word terrorist or insurgent or extremist? Or the words 'homeland security' being treated as something else besides a mantra for all the world's ills?

I don't think I have. I can tell you why, too: we're afraid. We've been afraid since 9/11 when roughly two or three dozen men masterminded an attack on America and succeeded. Yes, succeeded. Be liberal or conservative, fact is, they did succeed in their intent. Now, before you're under the belief I'm patting the terrorists on the back, I loathe what they did. I guess I hated them for it, and I still don't understand why it happened. But no one's 'been safe' since.

We've been very organized about it. We've got our fear color coded. "The Terror Alert Level Is Orange." Ironically, so is one of the cats I live with. Is she a terrorist? Joking aside, when's the last time you went to the airport right before your departure? Probably before 9/11/2001...because while I've not left the country since then, or flown for that matter, I've been with people for checkouts for flights and we've not been any later than at least one hour from departure. We all have done it and do it, we've all accepted if this is how we're going to be safe, this is the way it has to be. Along with preemptive war, and a few other evils we've got in bed with.

Acutally, someone once asked me where I thought the country was going in one of these blogs. Bargaining. We're at bargaining. We're trying to do anything, anything to make sure it doesn't happen ever again. And maybe it won't. But now we're out of control and we need to regain our downward spiral somehow, so we inflict things on ourselves we wouldn't accept otherwise. Torture of enemy combatants. Preemptive war. A decifit spiralling lower and lower. Sending our troops into possible danger and death. Abriging our civil liberties with the Patriot Act. Hell, even inconviences like increased airport security. We've suffered as a country, and now we'll do anything to make the pain go away. If you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about, here's a website on the five stages of mourning: Link.

As a confession, I do say I've been through most of those. And I'm going to be honest with myself, I thought the terrorists deserve anything they got and we needed to get them too. Here's a portion of my livejournal, written after the tradegy of 9/11 (it is acutally 9/12/2001, and unedited with course language. It's only an except.):
About 8 45 AM, Eastern time of what would now be yesterday, some shit heads hijacked a few commerical airliners plowed into the World Trade Center twin towers amd tjhe Pentagon. and killed thousands of innocent people to make some fucking polictical or moral point that they could of gotten across much better with picket signs. But since no one has any conception of what human life is worth anymore, I don't say I'm really shocked. I want the terrorists to die. I'm not a proponent of the death penalty, but those fuckers changed my mind in this one case. I want them to feel what their victims felt as they slammed into a building, or got buried under wreckage like a house of cards. I want them to feel the agony that we all feel right now, knowing we were so helpless to do anything. I want them to suffer.

The fucked up thing is this could start WW3. No, really. The guy they think did this is in some shit for brains 3rd world country. First off, I don't want more people to die, save the assholes that started it all.

There. I'm as human as anyone else, and perhaps as guilty if you consider unreasonable, unthinking anger a sin of sorts. I also note that my syntax and grammar were brutal. I think it was more of a vomit lesson for the emotions than anything else. Feel free to call me a hypocrite, but what I do in anger isn't rarely the point. We've danced our way through mourning as a country, and we're still in the cycle, at sixes and sevens with each other and the rest of the world. Now, some of this is positive. We needed to amend our airport security, and trying to find Osama Bin Laden is an necessary evil. Our police and military do need our appeciation, and our public services got noticed and overhauled a little because of it. I'll even say that the Department of Homeland Security was overdue considering that eariler OK City and Columbine didn't happen too long before that.

Think about it though: checking library records? Detaining people and torturing them for protracted periods of time? Preemptive war? How safe is safe? Do we ban Santa Claus next because his beard looks a little like Osama's if you dirty it up a little? I realize that's an extreme case, but justifying it all away as, 'it's needed for our safety' is free reign for anyone to do what they like in the name of safety. Why do you think certain movies about government conspiraces are so pouplar? And have you noticed the villians in such movies (I watched the Bourne Supremacy tonight) never, ever try to take over the world or the country, but see themselves as patriots? Why do we have no trouble believing it at all? Personally, I think it's because it's entirely believable.

How far will our fear and loathing go? And is peace obtainable when all both sides want is conflict to wipe the other from the face of the earth?

Mediating Over Christmas, the wolf dragon/AWM

Sol
politics
7,525 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Solnac, I agree with you completely. I have mourned. When the towers went down, I wanted those criminals DEAD. I still want them dead. Of course, the 19 aboard the planes are dead, but I also want their other planners to be just as dead. And, like you, I do not advocate the death penalty. Hell, I didn't even want to see McVeigh put to death. But, these guys, oh yeah. Nothing less than death. I'm not sadistic, so I don't wish them an agonizing death. That would put all of us through agony. I just want them dead. Swiftly, Painlessly. Precisely. Dead.

But, as a country, we have gone off the deep end. In order to hold someone responsible, anyone that was within reach, and we know that Saudi Arabia was not within our grasp (hell, they're Bush's buddies), we went after Iraq. It was a feel good exercise in what turned out to be FUTILITY. Admittedly, I was hesitant about invading Afganistan, because I felt that making an entire country pay for just a few's criminal acts was over the top. I was wrong, and I now see that Afganistan was a necessary invasion.

But, we virtually abandoned Afganistan to go after this fool's gold, called Iraq. This government is responsible for most of the fear mongering that followed 9/11. Following is the Nazi quote attributed to Goering which Bush and his bosses relied upon to do their bidding and manipulate this country. Maybe they didn't conciously use this quote, but the mindset was there:

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg
Trials after World War II.

See the similarities? They are there. Frankly, I'm more afraid of the Bush dynasty then I am of terrorists. Truly. They have implemented the Patriot Act, which would never have been tolerated within our United States of America without the fear mongering they based their lies upon. Yes, lies. Lots and lots of lies. Now that we've trashed an entire country based on these lies, like pathological liars, they must continue to lie and lie and lie. Like things in Iraq are going so rosy. Tell me that's not a lie. That the world is safer? Nope, that's also a lie. That the Iraqis are better off now than before we invaded. Another lie.

And, like the scared rabbits this country has become, we buy the lies, the fear mongering, the bullshitl

I'm sorry, Solnac. I didn't mean to take over your blog. I got carried away. I'm so angry at this collective lying that our government is perpetrating. And, I'm so angry that so many people are buying it. I'm angry.

"Every time I hear the news
That old feeling comes back on;
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the Big Fool says to push on."
- Pete Seeger, 1967
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I was going to comment on this article, but I see the kooks have already hijacked it.  Good thought provoking anyway.  Just dont drink the Kool Aid
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh please, dr guy, I'd love to read your thoughts. You don't have to drink anything. I'm sure solnac would love to read your comments as well.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, Iraq was a fools quest. Day after day we see that the Iraq Army and Police fail to keep order. This is a no win situation. Sec. Powell was correct Mr. Bush you broke it and do not know how to fix it! Our brave military are paying the price for the Bush preemtive war. javascript:editor_insertHTML('message','')
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I've got different stages of mourning - there are only four.
#1 Sadness - never in my life (not even the death of my Father) has an event caused me to randomly break down and cry at any given moment as I pictured in my head the fall of those towers over and over again. This went on for several weeks.
#2 Anger and hatred - Never in my life did I hate a group of people (Islamic fanatics) as did and continue to do.
Hunt them down - There are ways to hunt, and in the military sense the best way is to find something that brings your enemies to you (and that is what we have done in Iraq - so screw all you idiots that think it was a mistake).
#3 Kill -There is no barganining with these fanatics. There is no way to change there twisted minds. The victory will come when we have killed enough of them to show future generations that what they are doing is futile. So when some young arab sees that all of these suicide / homicide bombings have been for nothing he will tell his Imam to go pound sand - or better yet ask the Imam "If dying for Allah is so great how come you aint strapped on the C4 and done it yet.
#4 Victory - I have 2 sons in the Army, one will be deployed for the first time as a Ranger, the other will be going over tor the third time in as many years. Everyone wants to pray for the troop. I respect that! But while your at it pray for victory. Pray for defeat of our enemies that want to destroy us. And most of all pray that this country with its defeatist media has the stomach for the fight. Because it aint over yet.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
#3 Kill -There is no barganining with these fanatics. There is no way to change there twisted minds. The victory will come when we have killed enough of them to show future generations that what they are doing is futile


this is not necessarily a successful approach based on the experience of roman emperors diocletian and nero who used lions to implement a similar strategy against early christians.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Romans ended up being hated by the majority of the populace they ruled over. If that happens we are doomed as well. We are not Romans.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
One at a time:

I'm sorry, Solnac. I didn't mean to take over your blog. I got carried away. I'm so angry at this collective lying that our government is perpetrating. And, I'm so angry that so many people are buying it. I'm angry.


It's ok. I enjoyed your comments, they summed up a lot of liberal frustration into one small pill. Hence the comparsion between us and the stage of grief called bargaining. We want desperately for things to be the same again, when it's partially our foreign policy that doesn't help us in this mess. I'm not blaming it all on that, mind, considering there are just some people that will be so fanatical they'll oppose you on principle.

Well, I was going to comment on this article, but I see the kooks have already hijacked it. Good thought provoking anyway. Just dont drink the Kool Aid


Wow. Go ahead and comment, I'm glad you had at least thoughts to provoke about this article (not a dig), and I'd like to hear you, Dr. Guy.

Yes, Iraq was a fools quest. Day after day we see that the Iraq Army and Police fail to keep order. This is a no win situation. Sec. Powell was correct Mr. Bush you broke it and do not know how to fix it! Our brave military are paying the price for the Bush preemtive war


This is called the Pottery Barn Rule, Col. Gene. You broke it, you bought it. Whether or not you think Iraq was the correct thing to do or not (and I don't), we're 'in for a penny, in for a pound.'

There are ways to hunt, and in the military sense the best way is to find something that brings your enemies to you (and that is what we have done in Iraq - so screw all you idiots that think it was a mistake).


If I accept this premise (I'm not a fan of it, but I concede it's not a bad one in and of itself,) then the logical question that follows is: "was there anything else we could have gone for that would of lessened the loss of life?" As for your comment of screwing me because I think it's a mistake, screw you. It's my blog, and the nice thing about democracy is that I'm entitled to feel this way. However, we better be ready to fight, because you're right, it ain't over yet, not by a long shot.

this is not necessarily a successful approach based on the experience of roman emperors diocletian and nero who used lions to implement a similar strategy against early christians.

The Romans ended up being hated by the majority of the populace they ruled over. If that happens we are doomed as well. We are not Romans.


I wonder, kingbee, if you're comparing apples to oranges. The early Christians were a relatively peaceful group. I think the Inquistion or the Crusades are closer to the mark: you kill them all, or force them to recant, the ones out there will just hate you more for it. There's only so many people you can kill before you realize an eye for eye makes the whole world blind.

Worknman: huh? Are you saying we're not hated by the majority of the pouplace we're ruled over? that was sorta vague
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

The Romans ended up being hated by the majority of the populace they ruled over. If that happens we are doomed as well. We are not Romans.


 

I wonder, kingbee, if you're comparing apples to oranges


i know of no historian--secular or otherwise--who denies the impact of christian martyrdom as crucial factor in the ultimate (and amazingly quick) triumph of christianity over the state gods of rome.  everytime one was eaten by lions, several romans converted to take his or her place.

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks, Sol. One of my favorite quotes is "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." It's so, so true. As for hunting down and killing the perps who conceived the 9/11 horror, we sure did bungle that one, didn't we? So, we're attempting to make anyone pay. Iraq's lucky number got picked. NOT!!

After Afghanistan, what this country should have done was secure certain aspects of our society that were vunerable to a subsequent attack. Not just planes and airports. Ports are the first thing that comes to mind. Subways. Bridges. Power plants. Water supplies. Etc. Instead, we sent thousands to their deaths, spending billions of dollars on a fool's escapade. Instead, we implemented the Patriot Act, a horrific sacrifice of American's freedoms, passed only because of the fear and hate we collectively felt. It's a terrible law. Hitler would have been proud. And, it doesn't protect us from anything but ourselves. At the expense of ourselves. This country has a serious case of cataracts right now. We are going blind.

I'm sorry that your sons are brought into this mess, Workman, and I know they serve proudly and that you are a proud father. I don't mean to diminish that, at all. But, think of the billions of dollars wasted on that military endeavor, when it could have been spent securing our country and our bases overseas. $200 billion, and still counting and rising for years to come will never win the peace over there, nor will it secure our country here. Hell, we haven't even been able to secure Iraq's oil fields, which is why I'm convinced we invaded Iraq in the first place. Fool's gold.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
dabe - you think in terms of a New York minute -(Or maybe a movie with a happy ending) A culture has to be changed. Hundreds of millions of people have to begin to think in terms of being part of the civilized world. The Islamic fanatics have to be eliminated in order for this to take place. They believe they are superior and we are non-believers. In their world it is okay to kill us. It does not matter if they live in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or the Sudan. It is the belief system that has to change and this will not happen by just talking about it. It took the military to destroy the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese empire and it will take the military to destroy this evil as well.

As for the money - what good is all the money in the world if you fear going out of your home. I know people from Iran that live here and have family back in Iran. Try to picture a place where you could be taken away by the local police never to be heard from again. No trial, no due process. It is not even a close call.
And if you fear going out of your home because George Bush is president, or that we are just over there for the oil - I have some moon rocks I can sell you that I got of e-bay.

One more thing - Is there anything in your life that has been affected in a negative way by the Patriot Act? Or are you just parroting what you here from the talking heads on TV?
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Roman's wanted to rule the world for eternity. I think we just want the world to "buy American". If we are like the Romans then why bother trying to set up elections in Afghanistan and Iraq?