Judge allows religious theme (in school even)

I think you might be off on the ACLU this time. I beleive it comes down to sponsorship. If the school district is asking students to pass out candy canes or pencils, then yes, the ACLU would support the separation principle. If it is a student, or small group of students, then it could fall under Freedom of Expression and the First Amendment, which the ACLU would support, as long as the students were not taking away from class time or causing a disrpution in the classroom.

The judges statement:
U.S. District Judge Paul Brown said the Plano Independent School district couldn't restrict students and their parents from handing out candy with religious messages.

Seems to be more of an expression issue than separation.

IG

ITA with IG....this isn't an issue where I would expect the ACLU to take exception to the ruling. Just as students are allowed to pray as individuals, or even in small groups, without school sponsorship, so are they allowed to pass out gifts to their fellow students which express their religious beliefs. If Jewish students wished to do the same for Hanukkah, or other students wanted to do the same for any of their religious celebrations, they would/should have the same right. It only becomes an issue of separation when the school is sponsoring/favoring one religion over the others.

And this is why I love being a Texan! We still have judges with brains and spines.

What happens to those who aren't Christians? They are now set up for ridicule for their beliefs.

I'm sure some of them might be ridiculed by bullies because of their religious beliefs, but what about people who are ridiculed for their political beliefs, tastes, lack of wealth, race, appearance, sexuality, weight, virginity, impediments, accents, clothing, friends, etc. Should those things be removed from schools to protect children from ridicule? People need to realize that there are thousands of things children ridicule other children over and not just religion, so censoring religion won't stop all bullying and ridicule.

Why add one more reason? We have a freedom of religion in this country. It means that we do not favor one religion over another and that we are free to pick whatever religion we choose even if that choice is to say no. Do you really trust schools to teach religion? They are not trained for it and you can never be sure which side of the spectrum they come from.

What happens to those who aren't Christians? They are now set up for ridicule for their beliefs.

I'm sure some of them might be ridiculed by bullies because of their religious beliefs, but what about people who are ridiculed for their political beliefs, tastes, lack of wealth, race, appearance, sexuality, weight, virginity, impediments, accents, clothing, friends, etc. Should those things be removed from schools to protect children from ridicule? People need to realize that there are thousands of things children ridicule other children over and not just religion, so censoring religion won't stop all bullying and ridicule.

I'm sure some of them might be ridiculed by bullies because of their religious beliefs, but what about people who are ridiculed for their political beliefs, tastes, lack of wealth, race, appearance, sexuality, weight, virginity, impediments, accents, clothing, friends, etc. Should those things be removed from schools to protect children from ridicule? People need to realize that there are thousands of things children ridicule other children over and not just religion, so censoring religion won't stop all bullying and ridicule.

Outstanding! Have an insightful on me.

It means that we do not favor one religion over another and that we are free to pick whatever religion we choose even if that choice is to say no. Do you really trust schools to teach religion? They are not trained for it and you can never be sure which side of the spectrum they come from.

whoman, freedom of religion also means the ability to express that religion through words, symbols, and holidays. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. No one is asking schools to teach religion! Just allow the students to express their religion.

For the life of me, I don't understand why Christians have to shove their christianity down the throats of everyone else. I am not christian, and I don't appreciate being subjected to this onslaught of christian imagery. If you're so religious, then why must you proclaim it in everyone's faces all the time. Why can't you just quietly pray, and affirm your christianity in private. I'm not trying to take christianity away from anyone. I don't begrudge anyone their religious beliefs. But, I resent completely, having you all prance your religiousness around, as if it makes you better. In fact, it doesn't. I really don't need to be reminded day in and day out in public and in governmental offices and schools of your religion. I certainly don't need to shove my Judaism into your faces to affim my roots. And, I don't want to see any non Christian children ridiculed in schools, like I was when I was in grade school, just because I was a minority. Sh*********************t

For the life of me, I don't understand why Christians have to shove their christianity down the throats of everyone else.

I don't know. Perhaps it's the same reason why homosexuals shove their homosexuality down everybody's throats and why liberals shove their politics down everybody's throats.

DABE: Nobody is shoving anything down your throat. IF ANYTHING, your desire to see my rights restricted as a free citizen of the Republic is highly disturbing. A bit of advice:

If YOU want to deny Christians our freedoms, be prepared to fight.
If YOU want to persecute people for their beliefs, make sure your on the right side of the oven door before you start gassing people.

The last time a minority took control of a free democratic country and started blaming every little problem on a select group of minorities, most of the people in the political party ended up dead or in prison, with their leader shot through the head, in a ditch, on fire.

Learn your lessons, leave our rights alone.

Why can't you just quietly pray

Because we aren't allowed to in school or other places. People like you made sure of that.

why must you proclaim it in everyone's faces all the time

ummm...believed they are commanded to "proclaim the Word of God"

But, I resent completely, having you all prance your religiousness around,

No prancing, just worship.

I really don't need to be reminded day in and day out in public and in governmental offices and schools of your religion

Obviously, you need to be reminded of history, and the principles of tolerance that you claim to love so much.

And, I don't want to see any non Christian children ridiculed in schools, like I was when I was in grade school, just because I was a minority. Sh*********************t

No one wants to see kids ridiculed for physical disabilities, eyeglasses, or religion, but it happens. You really need to come to grips with your victim mentality and wear your uniqueness and "minority" status as a badge of honor, not a scarlet letter. May I suggest you read <a href=http://iamheather.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=39528>Dare to be Different!</a>.

 

I don't begrudge anyone their religious beliefs

Yes you do. You begrudge Christians.

 

Reply #12 By: iamheather - 12/19/2004 1:07:25 AM Why can't you just quietly pray Because we aren't allowed to in school or other places. People like you made sure of that. why must you proclaim it in everyone's faces all the time ummm...believed they are commanded to "proclaim the Word of God" But, I resent completely, having you all prance your religiousness around, No prancing, just worship. I really don't need to be reminded day in and day out in public and in governmental offices and schools of your religion Obviously, you need to be reminded of history, and the principles of tolerance that you claim to love so much. And, I don't want to see any non Christian children ridiculed in schools, like I was when I was in grade school, just because I was a minority. Sh*********************t No one wants to see kids ridiculed for physical disabilities, eyeglasses, or religion, but it happens. You really need to come to grips with your victim mentality and wear your uniqueness and "minority" status as a badge of honor, not a scarlet letter. May I suggest you read Dare to be Different!. I don't begrudge anyone their religious beliefs Yes you do. You begrudge Christians.

Thank you iamheather. That was put more eloquently than I could do.

The fact that you guys think that anyone against you slathering your Chrisianity all over public places is trying to deny you your religion is hokum and hyperbole. Homosexuality is not a religion, and to compare it with one is ridiculous. Nor, do I begrudge Christians. What I begrudge is your insistence that trying to separate church and state is denying you your rights is so un-american, so unconstitutional, so full of crap that it boggles my mind. And, heather, if you think it's ok that Muslems, Jews, etc. get ridiculed in public schools because we are not Christians, and should just grin and bear it and wear it like a badge of honor, you're freakin nuts. Not to mention completely ignorant about the issue. It's just a way for the religious right to polarize Christians into believing their fucking bullshit. If we go down the route of making this a Christian state, then we are no better than any of the islamist extremist states. No better at all. Only you won't see that cuz you're a Christian who supports the polarizing of yourselves and the marginalization of everyone else. Hmmmmmmm....... isn't that the tool that Hitler used to proclaim superiority? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................... that, tossed in with the Patriot Act, and 1930's Germany, here we come. It's that slippery a slope, and I do not want to go down it.

This is not a Christian nation. This is not a Jewish nation. This is not a religious nation. This is a nation made up of all these things. Government, however, is secular. I will always fight to keep it that way.

 

We have a freedom of religion in this country. It means that we do not favor one religion over another and that we are free to pick whatever religion we choose even if that choice is to say no. Do you really trust schools to teach religion? They are not trained for it and you can never be sure which side of the spectrum they come from.

This has nothing to do with schools teaching religion...it has to do with every American having the freedom to believe what they choose, and to express those beliefs when they choose.

But, I resent completely, having you all prance your religiousness around, as if it makes you better. In fact, it doesn't.

I don't believe the majority of Christians feel that we are any better than anyone else. I for one am open to learning about anyone's beliefs if they choose to share them. My ex has become Wiccan, and our daughter is learning about both sets of beliefs, so that when she reaches the age of maturity she can make her own decision, whether that be to follow our beliefs or to find her own where she feels comfortable.

Why can't you just quietly pray Because we aren't allowed to in school or other places. People like you made sure of that.

 

Sorry, Heather, but that's not true.....we can still pray anytime, anyplace. The only thing that can't happen in schools is that teachers or administrators can't lead an organized prayer. Individual students or groups of students can pray at any time they choose.

The fact that you guys think that anyone against you slathering your Chrisianity all over public places is trying to deny you your religion is hokum and hyperbole.

 

What you appear to be against is freedom of expression. EVERY person in this country has that right, even those that each of us, as individuals, may not agree with....those children have the same right to pass out their candy canes and/or pencils as you have to post on here against it....if we take away one, then we put the other at risk as well.

This is not a Christian nation. This is not a Jewish nation. This is not a religious nation. This is a nation made up of all these things. Government, however, is secular. I will always fight to keep it that way.

 

While you're right about this not being a Christian, Jewish or any other type of religious nation, that has absolutely ZERO to do with this issue.  This issue is not about government sponsoring or approving any one religion over another. This is about ALL children, ALL Americans, having the right to share what they believe...Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Buddhist, Wiccan, agnostic, atheist, etc.....

 

 

 

 

What you appear to be against is freedom of expression. EVERY person in this country has that right, even those that each of us, as individuals, may not agree with....those children have the same right to pass out their candy canes and/or pencils as you have to post on here against it....if we take away one, then we put the other at risk as well.

I am not against freedom of expression. I have never advocated that Christmas should not be advertised and people shouldn't decorate their houses, and that people shouldn't buy stuff till they go flat broke once a year. What I advocate is to keep religion out of government. That includes public schools, court houses, national parks, etc. That's not to say that we cannot have holiday parties at these places. Just keep them all inclusive and secular in nature. If you think that is taking religious freedom away from anyone, you are sorely mistaken. And, it is not about freedom of expression. It's about freedom from religious oppression, in it's many, and often insidious forms.

Having said all that, I really do get tired of the extreme commercialism that occurs during the holidays. It's something I will never get used to, and for which I avoid shopping malls like the plague from Halloween through New Year's Day. But, have fun, everyone. Tis the season. Just keep it out of public, government sponsored places, like schools.

People need to realize that the majority of people are tolerant . The majority of christians do not shove their christianity down others throats. The majority of atheists do not shove their beliefs down everyones throats. The majority of homosexuals do not shove their sexual behavior down other peoples throats. Our society is full of yellow journalism and propaganda. Many advocacy groups, political parties, and media outlets sensationalize their issues for expediancy and/or ratings. Most public school officials are not trying to eliminate religion from the country as some politically inclined media personalities seem to suggest. Most liberals are not trying to get religion out of society. In fact most liberals are religious, and most liberals are christians. The school officials are trying to set up policies in response to complaints from parents and lawsuits around the country to try to avoid similar lawsuits. The current law of the land generally states that the public school system cannot promote religion but in doing so cannot deny the students their right to express their religious beliefs. It is a very difficult balance, particularly in places of great diversity. Occasionally there is in intolerant school official, teacher or parent, each of which can make it difficult to institute fair policy without the situation ending up in court. Sometimes there are overcautious school officials or teachers, but can you blame them? Why is it that sometimes parents complain about school policies, yet they are sometimes the same parents who don't attend school board meetings when they address these issues, or don't go to any meetings at all?

If you are a slave to conservative media you might be led to believe that every single case on this issue is an attack on a persons right to religious expression.
If you are a slave to liberal media you might be led to believe that every case on this issue is an attempt to institute religion into the government.
If you are slave to both or none you might be able to see the differences in the cases, you might notice which party to the case is intolerant, overly cautious, or mistaken. You may also realize that the amount of diversity and tolerance varies from place to place and that what works best in one state or town may be different from what is best in your own state or town.

Also for those of you who don't understand what the ACLU is "truly" about on this issue. No the ACLU will not come swarming in now. They support students' rights to express their religious views. They tend to use their resources in cases involving minority religions so if a student was denied the right to bring in candy with Hanukkah messages, for example, then you might see them swarming in.

In any case keep in mind that this is only a temporary restraining order. You might want to look through prior cases in Texas to see if there is other precedent. Possible something that allows students to distribute items with religious messages in the halls but not the classroom. It looks to me like the school board is trying to find some sort of situation that is inline with current precedent. For example making the parties non-institutional time and possibly non mandatory. Then of course someone else will sue

Unfortunately it is always the children who lose.......usually because of overzealous or activist parents. From both sides of the issue.

Homosexuality is not a religion, and to compare it with one is ridiculous.

Whether or not you want to acknowledge it, some homosexuals do shove their sexuality down the throats of others. Same with politics, wealth, and sex record. Do you honestly believe that students aren't ridiculed for those non-religious things? If so, then you need to open your eyes.

What I advocate is to keep religion out of government.

Will you do us a favor and read what we've written? Nobody is advocating that government institutionalize Christianity! What we're advocated is the right for students to express their beliefs!

You say you don't begrudge Christianity, but yet even the ability of children to express their religious beliefs seems to deeply offend you (even if it's only one of many ways people separate themselves, and yes whether or not you want to admit it, people do get ridiculed for their sexuality, appearance, politics, wealth, etc.), and you can't differentiate the freedom of children to express their religious beliefs with the government institutionalizing a religion.

People need to realize that the majority of people are tolerant . The majority of christians do not shove their christianity down others throats. The majority of atheists do not shove their beliefs down everyones throats. The majority of homosexuals do not shove their sexual behavior down other peoples throats.

I just want to say true true true. There's going to be bad apples in any group. If we forbid a group to express themselves because of the bad apples, then what we need is children encased in armor that prevents them from communicating or even acknowledging the presence of another child.

dabe

This is not a religious nation

96% of this nation identifies themselves as religious...(mostly Christian)

 

And, heather, if you think it's ok that Muslems, Jews, etc. get ridiculed in public schools because we are not Christians, and should just grin and bear it and wear it like a badge of honor, you're freakin nuts. Not to mention completely ignorant about the issue

I don't think it is ok to ridicule anyone, but I live in reality! Children will be ridiculed by other children. I have three of them. My oldest gets ridiculed becasue he has severe ADHD and highly functioning autism. He talks loud and off topic. People tease him for it, but he is very self assured and deals with the ridicule through humor. He knows he is "special" and takes pride in being unique. My middle son wears glasses. He is teased about those.

To say I am ignorant about this issue is ignorant on your part. You don't know me. I grew up in a cult. We had no Christian holidays, no Jewish holidays, but some "weird" holidays no one had ever heard of. I was removed from the classroom during Christmas carolling and  Easter egg hunts, and Halloween coloring. There was no truer minority in my school than me. Jews didn't accept me. Christians didn't accept me. Atheists didn't accept me. Your comment and condemnation is disgusting.

If people really do think students should not be allowed to express their religious beliefs because people with different beliefs will be ridiculed, and if they're serious about not wanting children to be ridiculed, then they should do as this one school I heard about does and have every child wear a uniform, have children in cubicles, forbid them from talking to one another, etc. Only then will children have the slightest chance of growing up without being ridiculed.

Only then will children have the slightest chance of growing up without being ridiculed.

Great point, messybuu. And then those same children cannot make it in the real world. Their fragile egos will break at the slightest provocation. The world can be an ugly place. We, as parents, have a right to teach our children how to deal with that ugliness. Insulating them will only harm them further. We must teach coping mechanisms, self esteem, and how to love.

If people really do think students should not be allowed to express their religious beliefs because people with different beliefs will be ridiculed, and if they're serious about not wanting children to be ridiculed, then they should do as this one school I heard about does and have every child wear a uniform, have children in cubicles, forbid them from talking to one another, etc. Only then will children have the slightest chance of growing up without being ridiculed.

I disagree...the way for children to grow up without being ridiculed is for ADULTS to stop ridiculing those who are different....children learn what they live.  If Mom and Dad ridicule others, then the children will do it and see nothing wrong in it. If Mom and Dad DON'T do it, and teach that it is wrong, and stop other adults when they are doing it, then the children will react the same way. I don't see it ever happening, but it IS how I'm raising my children.....and if they face ridicule because of it, they know to let it roll off their backs and go on because THEY are the ones doing the right thing.