Reply #25 By: kingbee - 12/17/2004 3:14:17 AM a publicity stunt or, perhaps, a matter of principle?

Not principle, publicity stunt. He is not newly elected so that means that until recently he *was* standing. If you think I'm wrong about the butt-whooping just try not standing at a football game or a NASCAR event and see what happens.

He is not newly elected so that means that until recently he *was* standing. If you think I'm wrong about the butt-whooping just try not standing at a football game or a NASCAR event and see what happens.

until recently, nobody was standing--cuz they only recently started saying the pledge according to the post. 

as to the ass-kicking, its not that im questioning the possibility.  what part of 'the land of the free and the home of the brave' are we celebrating with that kinda mob violence again?

As far as I'm concerned, they have to stand for the national anthem (that's not a law but watch what happens if they don't) and if they're supposed to stand for that, what's wrong with standing for the pledge of alligence. And sorry mismos but since your not an american I would not expect you to understand. And *YES* they *should* make it a law. You do realize that you have to be able to recite the pledge to even become a citizen?

Shit, I forgot I'm not American. And since you are American I guess we can't understand each other because we pratically speak different languages.

Do you 'beat up' people who don't stand? What do you mean 'watch what happens' - that's kinda creepy. I remember in grade school when they played the Canadian national anthem and I wouldn't stand, if only because I didn't understand what I was supposed to be worshiping. I still don't. Did you ever stop to think about what constitutes a country? I don't understand how it's something that is to be worshiped - its goal is to control you not love you.

I can't beleive you think they should make it a law. Don't you believe you live in the country of the FREE? Why do you wish to restrict other peoples freedom? I think you would be happier under some type of dictatorship rule where everone was force to worship the state. These kind of values scary me but allow me to understand why there is so much war and suffering in the world.

"I remember in grade school when they played the Canadian national anthem and I wouldn't stand, if only because I didn't understand what I was supposed to be worshiping. "

I can't understand people who are so ignorant or paranoid that they believe any symbolic expression of respect is "worship". Canadians fight against the stigma being "imposed" on Canada, but reenforce it every time they open their mouths...

I've heard the "I don't worship the flag" idiocy before, and frankly it doesn't sound any more intelligent coming from a Canadian "free spirit" than it does from Christian Fundamentalists. Next verse, same as the first...

Reply #28 By: mismos - 12/17/2004 10:48:26 AM As far as I'm concerned, they have to stand for the national anthem (that's not a law but watch what happens if they don't) and if they're supposed to stand for that, what's wrong with standing for the pledge of alligence. And sorry mismos but since your not an american I would not expect you to understand. And *YES* they *should* make it a law. You do realize that you have to be able to recite the pledge to even become a citizen? Shit, I forgot I'm not American. And since you are American I guess we can't understand each other because we pratically speak different languages

Being Canadian has nothing to do with it. Not being an american however has everything to do with it. As a non-american you may or may not be able to understand the at times *fierce* patriotic pride that is part of being an american.

Do you 'beat up' people who don't stand? What do you mean 'watch what happens' - that's kinda creepy. I remember in grade school when they played the Canadian national anthem and I wouldn't stand, if only because I didn't understand what I was supposed to be worshiping. I still don't. Did you ever stop to think about what constitutes a country? I don't understand how it's something that is to be worshiped - its goal is to control you not love you.

If you do this at a NFL football game or a NASCAR event and you can be almost certain the fans will either A: Make you stand or B: whoop your butt. Of course they will ask you to stand first.

"If you do this at a NFL football game or a NASCAR event and you can be almost certain the fans will either A: Make you stand or B: whoop your butt."

bleh. Pig headedness. The Chinese beat dissidents with waterhoses and are evil, and rednecks beat people for not standing during the national anthem and they are supposedly patriotic. Bullshit.

Anyway, it doesn't happen like that. People don't stand all the time. Watch the stands on televised events. People don't stand, no one beats them. Dr. Miller would like to think so, though why he would want to emulate evil people around the world I would never know.

Ignorance of the fact that the laws that protect Liberals from him also protect him from Liberals, I suppose.

Reply #31 By: BakerStreet - 12/17/2004 2:46:41 PM "If you do this at a NFL football game or a NASCAR event and you can be almost certain the fans will either A: Make you stand or B: whoop your butt." bleh. Pig headedness. The Chinese beat dissidents with waterhoses and are evil, and rednecks beat people for not standing during the national anthem and they are supposedly patriotic. Bullshit. Anyway, it doesn't happen like that. People don't stand all the time. Watch the stands on televised events. People don't stand, no one beats them. Dr. Miller would like to think so, though why he would want to emulate evil people around the world I would never know

Bah you can watch on TV all you want. Do you think they're going to show that on national TV? I said it because I've seen it personally. Obviously you have not.

Personally, I think we should publically hang people who don't stand for the pledge or the national anthem! If we have learned nothing in the last 100 years, it is that liberty doesn't work! Think of the countless American lives that would have been saved if we could have turned live ammo on the pinko protestors during the Vietnam war! Think of how much better this country would have been run if that God Fearing Richard Nixon hadn't been the victim of a high tech lynching for his wiring of the Watergate hotel! Think of how the Iraq war would have been resolved if we didn't let these liberal pukes question whether or not the war is ethical or just! I can't believe there's even a discussion here!

Sarcasm doesn't come off very well in posts. You are being sarcastic, aren't you? Because it almost sounds like you mean this.

"I said it because I've seen it personally. Obviously you have not."

Then If I haven't seen it, perhaps it isn't as universal as you make it out to be... Not sure how you are furthering your argument there.

As far as I am concerned, if you stand and watch someone beaten because of their political or religious beliefs and do nothing, then you are no better than Hussein's thugs or party enforcers in China. You have no moral standing to judge such. There's no difference between beating someone because of their race or religious belief and beating someone who differs with you politically.

Dr Miller doesn't speak for Americans, since it is a completely un-American attitude he is expressing. Bullying people, threatening them, impeding their ability to express themselves as they wish is what America was formed to opposition to. The ACLU oversteps itself and dmages freedom to protect what it considers to be freedom, and Dr. Miller's Nascar thugs do the same thing. Both simply thwart freedom.

P.S. Congratulations validating all the wrong-mindedness people have about the US, doc. Thanks heaps for every ass that reads your bullshit and imposes it on the majority of Americans that actually cherish freedom.

I can't understand people who are so ignorant or paranoid that they believe any symbolic expression of respect is "worship".

Symbolic expressions are just that, 'symbols', they are not living or breathing and they are defined differently to everyone that comes in contact with it. How do you give emotion to a dead thing - a symbol, a rock or anything that isn't alive? If you look at history, humanity has "worshiped" or "over-respected" many negative symbols, attrocites, governments, religions, and all because they were "in-side" of it - too close to it to anaylize it objectively. Too me this is just a security blanket for people - the opiate of the masses, sort of speak. Think about this - even a evil nation with an evil leader would want his populace to be 'respectful' and even worship them. History will also point out this fact to you. So what good does it do for your country to love it unconditionally if it blinds you from critical analysis, which appears to be hugely lacking. Maybe the word 'America', along with the nice flag, represent something very profound for you - but you says those same feelings can't be felt in other objects like trees or rocks... or inside yourself?

I've heard the "I don't worship the flag" idiocy before, and frankly it doesn't sound any more intelligent coming from a Canadian "free spirit" than it does from Christian Fundamentalists.

Every country has people like you who worship (for lack of a better word) their country and their flag. And you think that you are more correct in your assertions why? The only thing that could possible make you think your right 'over' these others is pure arrogence. That is what your patriotism is rooted in.

Not being an american however has everything to do with it. As a non-american you may or may not be able to understand the at times *fierce* patriotic pride that is part of being an american.

You contradict yourself. You say being non-American (I can't believe that you're so patrotic and then forget to capitalize American) has everything to do with not understanding and then in the next statement to so a non-American may or may not be able to understand the fierce patriotic pride. I understand patriotism, it's just beneth me. I can understand it as unnecessary and a cause of conflict and war, the next post proving my point.

If you do this at a NFL football game or a NASCAR event and you can be almost certain the fans will either A: Make you stand or B: whoop your butt. Of course they will ask you to stand first.

You don't find people whooping each others ass disgusting and the cause of this disgust Patriotism?

Personally, I think we should publically hang people who don't stand for the pledge or the national anthem!

If we have learned nothing in the last 100 years, it is that liberty doesn't work! Think of the countless American lives that would have been saved if we could have turned live ammo on the pinko protestors during the Vietnam war! Think of how much better this country would have been run if that God Fearing Richard Nixon hadn't been the victim of a high tech lynching for his wiring of the Watergate hotel! Think of how the Iraq war would have been resolved if we didn't let these liberal pukes question whether or not the war is ethical or just!

I can't believe there's even a discussion here!

Update from today's Washington Times, (Tuesday, December 21, 2004) - Pledge protester faces recall vote, page A1.

Summary: David Habecker, a two-term member of the board, faces a Feb. 15 recall vote after drawing the community's ire for refusing to stand because he objects to the phrase "under God."

The article quotes Mr. Habecker "This makes the pledge a religious test for public office", which leads me to believe he'll sue if tossed out of office, though how far such a case would go is debatable. He'd be suing to over-turn a valid recall election and/or the results of any special election that might replace him on the grounds his rights to free speech have been violated.

He also claims that the wording "under God" violates Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, which states that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Again, whether he could successfully argue that losing a valid recall vote should be over-turned is debatable. It's hard to imagine that any appeals court would ever really over-turn the decision of the electorate, especially given that the voters may use any number of reasons for voting out an individual -- even if it's as simple as believing that someone that fails to say the pledge is too un-patriotic to hold office.

More on this wanna-be folk hero anti-pledge protesting politician -- from the same Washington Times article, Nation section, Tuesday, December 21, 2004, page A7... paraphrased and/or quoted (quotes typically italicized)

... They (trustees and others that want to recall Mr. Habecker) said that Mr. Habecker also has publicly criticized President Bush and religious conservatives. He recently took a swipe at the YMCA of the Rockies, which operates a nearby conference center and cabins, for "hiding behind the cross," Mrs. Jeffrey-Clark said.
"He's making a personal protest while sitting as an elected official on the board," said Mr. Clark. "This is the disrespect he's showing to his constituents."

So, though the article notes that in an ideal situation the other trustees would respect his protest by ignoring it, his critics point at issues like those noted directly above and say Mr. Habecker is the individual that is rocking the boat and making waves.

The article concludes with a statement from Mr. Clark which followed this note: He plans to fight the recall, but his critics predicted that his electoral luck has run out. Here's hoping!