Thoughts on balance and ship counters

houghts on balance and ship counters

 

I have played all three races in MP game for 2 month and here are some thoughts on balance and ship counters.

Advent is the strongest faction by far for it have the strongest early and mid game, while it can transition to late game more smoothly. The main issue of advent is that their ships break ship counters. The notorious tempest is a missile ship not only counters PD, but also any ship below tier 3. if you test it you can find it can kill light frigate without a single loss if shift click to the back of it and then in front of it. They also perform very well against capital ship due to low cost, high health and have more dps to capital ship than typical light frigate. The shield burst + iconus guardian making almost all of their ship so tanky that nothing counters them. Illuminator buff is a mistake, there are no fleet composition can deal with illuminator + guardian now. It have effective shield is more than 2000 and will be able to shield burst in 40-50 second is sick, it can kill all target very fast, 20+dps with 400 pierce means it do more damage to anything below 400 durability which is better than a harcka or oppressor, and it still have 10dps against capital ship which is as much as you can get as non-capital ship can get. All the tech of advent is half priced compare to others and cost a lot less exotics. They also have the best refinery as the refining speed item can be mounted on any big planet with metal income. Their capital ship is the cheapest while having best performance in a small number due to the shield burst+guardian combo make them twice as tanky if they manage to shield burst once, and more than twice as tanky if it manage to shield burst more than once. Which is easy in a 5V5 capital ship fight. The economy of advent is also way too strong, their sanctuary spire give them whooping 50% income in planet, that is the same amount TEC can get for T3, their planetary mining is also the best even in T3, if you count culture then it is better than vasari no matter what tech level it is.

 

TEC have the problem of having the most expansive everything, except for capital ship is slightly cheaper than vasari. The economy of TEC really struggles early on because of the orbital structures and tech they have cost them twice as much as the advent, even after the orbital structure cost reduction their orbital structure is still the most expansive one. Trade system just cost too much to set up, a trade port take 1000 sec to repay itself is not viable in MP game, until T3 with the orbital structure cost reduction and the 25%trade boost to cut it down to 640 sec, it just not worth it. And as TEC have no better bonus on planet they will have weaker economy than advent without considering the expansive tech, structures and unit. The Gauss frigate cost way too much for a narrow usage unit. It perform worse than krank and illuminator when dealing with lower durability ship, similar performance against capital ship with krank and it cost twice as much as a krank, even close to a illuminator which not only better at dealing damage at all target but also twice as tanky. This cost efficiency make it worse than making capital ships such as kol. The tech tree for guass weapon is also weird, the damage buff is all in a capital ship item that cost 2 exotics. Look at the beams for vas and plasma for advent, they both have a nearly 50% dps increase in tech and a item give them 50%damage increase that cost 1 exotics. I dont see why Gauss weapon need a special treatment.

 

Vasari have a rather balanced gamplay versus TEC, their ship is stronger but cant deal with the flack burst TEC capital ship early on, they have a better late game fleet but their economy make sure they get there later. They dont perform well against advent though. The guardian+ disciple+tempest crushes the krank+skirmisher, advent can pump out capital ship twice as much as vasari and once they have 3-4 halcyon they can fully block missiles, it just not gonna work.  

12,859 views 6 replies
Reply #1 Top

Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to write out this detailed feedback on what you've noticed. I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Advent rework currently on the Test Branch

Reply #2 Top

I have to disagree with what paramecium187833 said about the Advent.

Advent is the weakest faction early game, because it has a lacklusture economy unlike the TEC and to an extent the Vasari. By the 12 minute mark of the starting game, a TEC faction will have created 50-60 frigates along with a capital ship. By comparison, if you're not focused on booming (upgrading economy) and just purely building ships, an you as the Advent faction will be lucky to have 20 tempest or frigates which is not enough to stop 60 TEC Javalins, corvettes or frigates steam rolling you as the Advent player. It's not even a contest, you simply don't have parity with matching a TEC with economy to build the same amount of ships at the same time within the first 20 minutes of the game. This is against the hardest AI difficulty level I'm playing at.

The only reason I'm able to survive an early rush is because I'm using the combination of Rapture capital ship with Domination ability to capture enemy frigates combined with the minor faction Pirates tier 1 'Pirate Boarding Crew' attached to the Rapture to capture additional frigates. I'm not building any frigate ships of my own and just focus on building a second capital ship 'Progenitor' by the 4 minute mark which I'm using as a shield healing boat.  By the 12 minute mark, I'm barely able to survive an early rush with my 2 capital ships, and a dozen captured frigates with this strategy.

As for the Tempest missile ships, they are the weakest missile ship compared to the other faction missile ships. It has zero pierce damage, and its damage output is lower than the others. It's only saving grace is the missile redirection upgrade.

Iconus Guardians are cruisers which means you have to unlock the tier 2 and tier 3 to unlock both the ship and it's abilities and that is not cheap. For the cost you pay for, you'd want to expect that Iconus Guardians to be useful. The shields are strong, but it's hull is weak, so once its shields go down, it's very easy to destroy it. Secondly, if you are firing on multiple targets at the same time, Iconus Guardian shields will go down rapidly within seconds because it's absorbing damage for multiple nearby ships. Once it's shields go down, it stops absorbing 50% damage from nearby friendly ships and effectively becomes useless in combat. I don't think it's overpowered at all.

Same thing with the Illuminators, you have to unlock the hostility tiers to be able to unlock Illuminators and that is not cheap. And if I'm being honest, in over hundred hours of playing this game, not once have I used Illuminators at all. Simply because ever since they took out the Deceptive Illusion ability in sins 2, which was a damn useful ability I haven't really found a use for them. It cost too much to research and build illuminators early game, by late game their usefulness is situational and by use case scenario because they are too squishy without a bunch of iconus guardians protecting them.

Even if you think Advent tech is half price, you still have to remember that Advent still has the worst economy in the game. If you want them to have the same price as the other faction, then it would take more than 4 hours just to research everything without investing heavily into building a fleet. Sanctuary spire helps but it's not big a boost as you think. I'm 6 hours into a game with the test build version, and I'm only getting 60 credits/second and that is with all my 20 planets upgraded. The impossible TEC AI is floating over 2 million credits and is filthy rich. And that is because the Advent don't have trade ports unlike the TEC. In a war of attrition, if both factions had to continue to replenish their fleet building ships spending resources, Advent is going to run out of credits long before the TEC faction in a long game.

Shield burst is a useful trade off for TEC having ridiculous 15,000 to 45,000 crippled hull points (with their Titans and capital ships) which takes so much firepower to chew through. If I have to imagine the TEC having shield burst on top of that insane high crippled hull points and armor points, it take a 2 minutes with 2,000 bombers sustained fire just to bring down a titan. That would be ridiculous.

"Vasari don't perform well against Advent". Are we playing the same game? That's not right at all.

TEC performs well against Vasari

Advent performs well against TEC

Vasari performs well against Advent.

 

That's how the meta is. I have to kite the Vasari fleet to stay out of range of their 50% phase missiles with a fleet of halcyons if I don't want to lose a ship. And to say that they can "fully block" missiles is not true. If I go stand toe to toe in a slugfest, I'm going to lose 3 or 4 halcyon carriers to their 50% phase missiles, long before my carriers shields go down.

Anyway there's just so much wrong with your feedback that I had to chip my two cents here. There's some things you said are true but there's alot that makes no sense.

Reply #3 Top

Experienced Sins 1 player here, just spent a couple day with Sins II, feel like I have a handle for it. Came here looking for balance discussion. This is the only thread I see! Am I missing something or is there not a robust discussion of balance, unit counters, etc. ?

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Space-Monkey, reply 3

Experienced Sins 1 player here, just spent a couple day with Sins II, feel like I have a handle for it. Came here looking for balance discussion. This is the only thread I see! Am I missing something or is there not a robust discussion of balance, unit counters, etc. ?

Hello! I'd say the most active discussions are likely on Discord followed by steam discussion forums for that topic

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Reply #5 Top

Hello, I just uploaded a replay on discord called Gauss_frigate_vs_advent_cap.sins2_record.

as name suggested, I tried to  make a capital heavy advent fleet vs TEC guass frigate heavy fleet, I avoid anything that can counter the guass frigate deliberately, and IT  turns out just as I expected, advent capital ship is a hard counter to guass frigate at a large margin