Advents feedback

I played many games with AI as TEK and Vasari, and like them both since both have their strong sides, and make for a different gameplay. But I couldn't force myself until yesterday to play as Advent. So wanted to share some of my disappointment thoughts about it. For some context I played to learn the faction against a team of 4 AIs where 1 was Unfair and the rest were easy. I thought it would be an easy game where Unfair would give me something to chew.

I have to do something very wrong, because Advents are so weak in comparison to the other 2 factions. With tier 4 weaponry researched 70 Illuminators take a loooong time to defeat targets.

To compare the numbers: the damage output per second is so low, on Radiance, with full level 4 research and ship items installed and improved the DPS was in 30, where Marza, Kol, Kortul can go over 100.

Titan (Eradica) is pretty useless, since it's incapable to fight groups. Especially due to those volleys of missiles that have 0 armour penetration, only good vs scouts. A scout needs something like 15 missiles or more to go down. Everything else can ignore those missiles as flies.  Also other weapons DPS is petty.

Same about the starbase, very low DPS numbers.. The beam platforms were doing the killing, while the starbase was tanking the damage..

At first I thought ok the low numbers will be compensated by the physical amount of weapons, but it doesn't seem to be so. I had a really hard time yesterday against 4 AIs and at the end they spammed me in one attack where I had a full 2000 fleet. And the problem seems exactly the little damage output that Advents provide.

Apparently the only decent unit with a strong attack is the Destra, they seem to be the only thing able to kill efficiently the starbases and heavily armoured ships. Everything else struggles great time to do so. 

Also the bombers are not bad but you need really a lot of them to make it work

 

A couple of smaller things:

every third image in research tree is some kind of energy generator - makes visually difficult to distinguish between them and less diverse.

Advents apparently lack the option to increase the amount of civilian and military structures on every planet.

The unique feature Unity for Advent is also very meh.. Vasari can make all their ships faster, stronger and spam abilities, Advents can spy the planet and convert it. I mean nothing on the offensive side

 

Bottomline:

My play style can be more Vasari or Tek oriented and maybe I still didn't understand how to play Advents correctly so please take all written above as thoughts of day 1 player. I played Advents a lot in the Sins 1 and know they are more about micromanagement than other factions, but still...

 

 

 

7,182 views 4 replies
Reply #1 Top

Hey, first of all, thanks for the detailed feedback, it helps us improve the game a lot!

It is true that some of the advent ships have less DPs, then their counterparts by default, but there are ways to boost Advent strength to become a very strong empire.

Let's start with radiance. You were correct to identify that Advents are not about a single high DPS gun, but more about several guns with less DPS. Radiance falls in line with this, so we always should compare total DPS (which can be difficult at times, because of multiple multiplications involved).

Radiance does field a lot of DPS, however to get the most of it, you will need to understand "PSI". Psi is a unique resource Advent have, and it boosts your abilities. You can get PSI through items or research.

Illuminators are your anti-capital unit. However it is worth noting, that their DPS is split between 3 guns, with 2 of those being broadside. So it is true that Illuminators are not as good against a single target, but they are much better against fleets. What you should totally do, to maximize their DPS, is place them closer to enemy fleet, so that their broadsides always shoot at the enemy, as otherwise they might be out of range.

From your post, I take you tried to destroy a starbase with them. They are indeed suboptimal for that purpose, as they only have 400 pierce, vs 1000 durability on a starbase. Which means that only 14% of their damage goes through - and only from the main gun, which is about of 7% of their stated DPS.

This is also why Destra Crusaders performed so well against a starbase, even though their default DPS does not seem that high. They have 1000 pierce, meaning that they deal "true" damage to starbase.

In terms of unity, conversion is very offensive. You can grab planets from your opponent, disrupting their supply lines, or pushing faster through their defences. Also the recall ability allows you to save your fleet. This is best used for a titan save. If you play with homeworld victory disabled you could even move your homeworld closer to the frontline, to keep healing your army, without the long route back to the front line.

Finally Eradica is great against single targets, like titans, capitalships or even starbases. You should not use it's default weaponary though. That has more of a support role. Instead, you should focus a lot of PSI on your titan, and use it's damage ability. That way your titan will have about the same firepower Ragnarov does, but you'd also have the suppression aura, to make enemy fleet weaker.

There is of course always room for improvement, and we are actively working on it, including the research icons. Once again, thanks for your feedback!

Reply #2 Top

The main idea of and Advent fleet for me is their powerful lvl6 capital ship abilities, which, being amplified by psi, are the strongest abilities in the game. For example, Rapture's lvl6 ability allows you to destroy any ammount of close standing ships within seconds, and Progenitor's lvl6 ability allows you to resurrect entire fleets. Once I played versus an Advent AI as a Vasari, having about 400 Sulsuraks. When I started fighting enemy's Rapture lvl8 + Halcyon lvl5, I suddenly had a 15-second lag, after which all my Sulsuraks were gone (malice + telekinetic push totally annihilated them).

As for non-capical ships, they mostly support your capital ships in specific situations. Disciples can be used to hunt down enemy missile ships and carriers, Tempests help you destroy corvetes, Iconus multiplies your capital ships' shield strength and shield regeneration and so on. Also, Advent strikecraft have the highest damage, comparing to other factions, so it seems to never be a bad idea to mass them (however, currently strikecraft is being nerfed a lot and is maybe bugged, so better avoid this strategy until fix). As for the Illumina, I too find it difficult to find a good use for them. I think they are more like a counter to frigates and light cruisers, a bit more versatile, than Disciples are.

About capital ships' damage: later in the game you can use a ship item which increases ship's rate of fire and scales from psi. It can drammatically increase dps of capital ships.

Reply #3 Top

Hey guys, thanks for your replies. Didn't want to reply something meaningless, and was waiting for playing with advents again. Which I finally did during the last couple of days. And my opinion changed drastically actually. 

My mistake was I approached them same as Advents from Sins1. In Sins 1 you could get away playing as Advent with AI relying mostly on firepower. Here you can't. Aside from Crusaders (which are devastating with no way out) all the other units are mediocre at best so just firepower will not get you far. You will need to use abilities in a micromanaging way, but they will pump the whole strength by a lot.

Another of my issues was the economy. And indeed for Advents in Sins 2 it sucks (while it didn't suck that much in Sins1), but it's the only way to hold them down. Because they are the fastest colonizing race I just found how. While you will colonise 3 planets as any other race, Advents will probably have 5 or 6. 

The special abilities I was not very happy with, also needed more exploration. You don't have to fight to win over the planets. The combination of culture plus the abilities is extremely difficult to counter. I will also dare to say if you are any other race and play agains Advents in the late game you stand no chances at all. The only exception is being Vasari while playing with Home planet destruction win mode, but who would play that with Vasari :D

Actually my opinion changed to say that Advents are actually OP. I will use the platform to ask:

Don't you think Crusaders as tanky cruisers are too strong? The thing is having 30 of those, and it's not that expensive even, nullifies any value of fully upgraded starbases since they melt in under 30-60 seconds. 

Yes, you can say TEK has Ogrovs at about the same level of danger for structures, but it's not exactly the same. Ogrovs are not that tanky, and can be destroyed much easier. Also TEK doesn't have the Iconus Guardian, which in numbers will prolong the life of the whole fleet by lots of time. 

Please note Im not asking for a change but rather for an opinion.

And thanks again for your answers, cheers!

 

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Zabik_2, reply 1

Hey, first of all, thanks for the detailed feedback, it helps us improve the game a lot!

Let's start with radiance. You were correct to identify that Advents are not about a single high DPS gun, but more about several guns with less DPS. Radiance falls in line with this, so we always should compare total DPS (which can be difficult at times, because of multiple multiplications involved).

In Rebellion, Radiance battleship was one of the strongest capital ships in the game. A level 10 Radiance would defeat any other capital ship in a 1v1. The subtle changes in Sins 2 means there's no shield mitigation in this game where the Radiance shined which had up to 75% damage mitigation which meant only 25% of damage was hitting the shields in Rebellion. The other area it outshined was Cleansing Brilliance ability to shoot a giant honking lazer beam that could do thousands of damage per second and it was also AOE so you can wipe out dozens of frigates.

Quoting Zabik_2, reply 1

Illuminators are your anti-capital unit. However it is worth noting, that their DPS is split between 3 guns, with 2 of those being broadside.

It's true that Illuminators are better against fleets with their broadsides, but what made them so good in Rebellion was that they could use Deceptive Illusion ability which was the ability to clone itself so if you had 400 illuminators, in combat you could have up to 800 illuminators with half of them being clones which was very useful for drawing enemy fire and allowing illuminators to fight in protracted large scale battles against fleets. Sins 2, they seemed to have taken away the illuminators Deceptive Illusion which was their one defining feature. Which I don't understand why they did that.

Quoting Zabik_2, reply 1

This is also why Destra Crusaders performed so well against a starbase, even though their default DPS does not seem that high. They have 1000 pierce, meaning that they deal "true" damage to starbase.

Destra Crusaders unique ability "Ruthlessness" also seemed to be missing in Sins 2 which is another defining feature of this ship. In rebellion it only did 1.5 dps tick damage to all ships in the area which isn't alot, and barely enough to overcome even passive shield regeneration but that isn't what made it good. Why Ruthlessness was useful was because it was effective against small craft such as hanger pets (fighters/bombers) and corvettes who have low hull points.

Quoting Zabik_2, reply 1

In terms of unity, conversion is very offensive. You can grab planets from your opponent, disrupting their supply lines, or pushing faster through their defences. Also the recall ability allows you to save your fleet. This is best used for a titan save. If you play with homeworld victory disabled you could even move your homeworld closer to the frontline, to keep healing your army, without the long route back to the front line.

Conversion in Sins 2 is heavily nerfed. There's no good way to put this. You can only grab planets from opponents if your culture overcomes that planet, and if your opponent is smart, isn't going to allow that to happen by spamming culture stations to counter your culture. Deliverance Engine is heavily nerfed, you can only use it within one star system, you can't shoot it to another star system which you could do in Rebellion. Worse yet, Advent's Unity ability 'Conversion' does not work at all if your opponent has all their planets covered with planetary shielding. So not only is Deliverance Engine useless but also Conversion. The only unity abilities that are useful is Scrying for intelligence and Recall as well as the one that makes your planet immune to bombardment. The rest are useless.

Quoting Zabik_2, reply 1

Finally Eradica is great against single targets, like titans, capitalships or even starbases. You should not use it's default weaponary though. That has more of a support role. Instead, you should focus a lot of PSI on your titan, and use it's damage ability. That way your titan will have about the same firepower Ragnarov does, but you'd also have the suppression aura, to make enemy fleet weaker.

That's incorrect. The Eradica Titan is the best against fleets. It's actually the strongest titan in the game both in Rebellion and Sins 2 which mercifully, they haven't nerfed. I think you were meaning that the Coronata Titan is great against single targets.

Eradica Titan has Chastic Burst which deals a large amount of AoE damage (over 1000 damage) to a large area every 20 seconds (17 seconds with cooldown artifact). You combine that with its Super Saiyan on steroids ability 'Unyielding Will', and you've got a Titan that can take on a fleet and win in a slugfest in any 1v1 titan battle.

I actually understand where aigor85aigor85 is coming from. Ever since the changes in Sins 2, Advent have become somewhat weaker and harder to play in the early, mid and late game. They are very vulnerable at early game, with weak economy, and nothing to stop early rushes from either TEC or Vasari. In Rebellion you could spam 5 beam platforms with Protection of the Unity upgrade and culture upgrade that boosts shield regeneration by 150% which could fight off against any early rushes. 5 beam platforms meant that each beam platform had over 1,700 shield hit points which is almost equivalent to capital ship strength. That feature seems to have been taken out of this game.The beam platforms used to take only 1 tactical slot so you could have up to 40-60 beam platforms on a planet, but now they take 2 tactical slots which means you can only field 20 beam platforms which isn't enough to stop any invasion force.

Even now, I still haven't figured out a meta that can stop early rushes. That being said, I've adapted somewhat to the changes and can fight mid to late game and win without losing a ship now. As per the original meta of Rebellion, late game Advent is the strongest faction in the game (late game that is), but the weakest early game without research or upgrades. But it's the early rushes that I can't figure out. Without beam platforms "Synergy", I just don't know how I can stop early rushes. TEC economy means that by the time I have 20 frigates, TEC faction will have up to 60 frigates in the same time. Sort of the same with the Vasari.