February '24 Change Log - The Art of War

A Symphony of Shield, Armor, and Hull

from Sins2 Forums

Release Status: *** AVAILABLE ***

February brings a major revamp of the Sins combat system to the game. After looking at player feedback and our own testing, we determined that there were some major issues that had to be addressed. This new combat model is designed to avoid players creating a ‘death ball’ of any particular unit and just steamrolling everything else with it. The new model also allows us to add a lot more detail to the combat system that many players have asked for over the years.

Improved Combat Model Summary

More Granular Stats

Units now have 3 levels of Effective Health stats: Shield, Armor and Hull Points (EH ~= SP + AP + HP). A unit is destroyed only when its Hull Points reach zero.

Each Effective Health point type also has a unique mechanic associated with it:

  • Shields - have the Burst Restore mechanic, which was added in the previous patch, whereby once a unit’s shield reaches 0, it ceases regenerating and goes on a timer. At the end of the timer the shield will automatically be restored to a percent value of its maximum.

  • Armor - has the Armor Strength mechanic, which acts as additional damage resistance specifically for Armor Points. This means that any source of repair that can restore Armor is worth more than it may appear on the surface. Armor Strength is not reduced by weapon Pierce stats.

  • Hull - has the Crippled State, which is a unique mechanic applying to Capital Ships and Titans. These powerful ships are not destroyed at 0 Hull Points; instead entering the Crippled State with a secondary hull point pool which is a percentage of primary hull point pool (currently 100% for capital ships and 50% for titans). While in this state, the unit can still move and regenerate its various types of Effective Health point types, but it will be unable to use weapons, abilities or active components. If it reaches 0 Hull Points again while Crippled, it is destroyed. If it is repaired above its Crippled hull point total, it will become active again.

Counter System Integrity

Units now have Durability; this replaces the old Armor and Shield Mitigation systems. Durability is essentially the overall strength of a unit/structure, based on its type and size (generally). Durability affects Shields, Armor, and Hull Points equally - including their special states (where applicable). Pierce interacts with a unit’s Durability to determine damage. Durability should never change for any reason during the course of a match, ensuring that counters are always consistent and easy to understand no matter the type of Effective Health points a weapon is impacting. See below for simplified, but representative Durability and Penetration calculations.

This solves a number of notable counter issues of previous builds, especially at the extreme ends of the Pierce spectrum - Ogrov Torpedo Cruisers and Vulrak Penetrators being the most significant examples. These ships are now appropriately effective against Starbases without also being able to kill Capital Ships or Titans in a single salvo.

Note: Durability affects Shields, Armor, and Hull Points equally - including their special states (where applicable).

Faction Differentiation

Using these new mechanics, we are able to differentiate the factions more completely. TEC corvettes, frigates and cruisers do not have any shielding at all until they research the appropriate upgrade in the tech tree. Vasari have low Armor Points, but the highest Armor Strength, while also having the most access to ways of constantly regenerating Effective Health points without the need for an outside source of repair.

Rebalance

Every ship and weapon in the game has been rebalanced for this new system of stats, with a particular focus on ensuring counters and use cases for each class are solid and reliable. This includes some subtle changes, like giving missiles a higher max speed accompanied with a longer acceleration period, resulting in superior point defense penetration at long range.

Damage Calculations (simplified)

Step 1:
effective_durability = max(Durability - Pierce, 0.f)
damage_scalar = 1 / (1 + (effective_durability * scalar_per_durability))
scaled_damage = damage * damage_scalar
remaining_damage = apply_modifiers(scaled_damage)

Step 2:
shield_damage = min(remaining_damage, current_shield_points)
current_shield_points = max(_current_shield_points - shield_damage, 0.f);
remaining_damage = remaining_damage - shield_damage

Step 3:
effective_armor_strength = armor_strength (not affected by Pierce)
armor_damage_scalar = 1.f / (1.f + (effective_armor_strength * scalar_per_durability))
potential_armor_damage = remaining_damage * armor_damage_scalar
damage_prevented_by_armor_strength = remaining_damage - potential_armor_damage;
armor_damage = min(potential_armor_damage, current_armor_points);
current_armor_points = max(_current_armor_points - armor_damage, 0.f);
remaining_damage = remaining_damage - (armor_damage + damage_prevented_by_armor_strength);

Step 4:
hull_damage = min(remaining_damage, current_hull_points);
current_hull_points = max(current_hull_points - hull_damage, 0)

Note:
This skips a number of details such as shield bypass, armor bypass, cripple, etc.

NOTE: This update is not save game compatible with previous versions.

Version 1.19.7 Changelog

** Denotes changes made since the original change log was posted (that bullet point and all below it).

Balance

  • Rebalanced everything for the new combat model (see above).

  • Set consumable autocast to off by default. This is to prevent consumables from being constantly wasted as soon as they are completed, which was resulting in people assuming it was bugged.

  • Rebalanced TEC early economic flow.

  • Rebalanced Novalith damage from 2000 to 5000.

  • Rebalanced starbase durability to 1200.

  • Rebalanced several abilities.

  • Rebalanced income stats.

  • Rebalanced Ankylon Titan - unlock moved to research tier 4.

  • Renamed core_en to en.localized_text_csv.

  • Rebalanced Trader shield refit research subjects.

  • Rebalanced Vasari move speeds.

  • Rebalanced numerous capital ship abilities to work with new Armor mechanics.

  • Rebalanced capital ship platform deployment to not require facing.

  • Rebalanced Trader garrisons.

  • ** Rebalanced Flak Burst.

    • Executions decreased from 5 to 3.

  • Removed research requirement from TEC gauss cannon defense structure.

  • Vasari Vorastra titan’s Desperation ability damage reduction changed from 2%/3%/4%/5% to 1%/2%/3%/4%.

  • Vasari Marauder Phase Out Hull updated:

    • Antimatter cost increased from 60/55/50/45 to 75/75/75/75.

    • Cooldown time increased from 5/4/3/2 to 9/9/9/9.

Mod Support

Mod Delivery

  • Added mod delivery service powered by Mod.io. Note this has been added in an early state as we need to work out the kinks in a live environment.

  • Enabled modding tab button.

  • Integrated both Mod.io and local file system mods into the modding system.

  • Added support for new scenarios (i.e., maps) from mods to be hosted over Sins multiplayer servers.

  • Added infinite scrolling to mod browser list.

  • Added mod search field to filter.

  • Added modding search filter tags.

  • Added custom error message for mods differing when joining the server.

  • Added mods stats to tooltip (rating, downloads, etc.).

  • Added new modding UI and ability to subscribe to mods.

  • Added search filter to only include mods marked as compatible with the current game version.

  • Added sync to external Mod.io changes in the game client. The user can now manage subscriptions on the Mod.io website, and the game client will synchronize to the changes upon fetching external updates.

  • Added 'waiting to install' for applying mod changes.

  • Added handling of mods with mismatched compatibility versions.

  • Added not authenticated label to modding view. Helps the user understand why no mods are showing up.

  • Added support for hosting games where the scenario comes from a mod.

Mod Authoring

  • Added restore_armor unit operator.

  • Added action_value_transform_types for armor.

  • Added crippled_hull_points unit modifier.

  • Added has_missing_armor unit constraint.

  • Added repair_damage action to allow repair of multiple health components atomically (e.g., both hull and armor).

  • Moved health passive regen cooldowns from player to unit. For consistency and so they can be modified by research.

  • Updated buff-schema.

User Interface

  • Added order pulse lines. Now all lines that represent orders have an animating pulse to show the direction the ship will be traveling.

  • Added order line pulse colors.

  • Fixed occasional jitter of phase lanes when displaying multiple move order lines.

HUD

  • Added asset delta event colors to tooltip.

  • Added planet bonus modifiers to planet tooltip. Previously modifiers were only shown on the planet bonus itself.

  • Fixed player icon in tooltip lines not always colored properly.

  • Moved Shield Burst restore amount to advanced tooltip.

Diplomacy

  • Added player icon to alliance offer tooltip.

  • Added auto-accept of alliance offers for simply giving resources between players.

  • Added more player asset delta events for alliance offers. Can see now giving resources away.

  • Fixed alliance ‘offer accepted’ notifications not showing the alliance details in the tooltip.

  • Improved ‘alliance offer’ accepted tooltip. Description headers are now past tense (gave vs will give).

Bug Fixes

  • Fixed initial max health points not accounting for research. Caused new ships to regen up to max instead of starting at max.

  • Fixed loot collection progress bar not visible.

  • Fixed ships given Follow move orders sometimes getting stalled.

  • Fixed split formation issues. Groups of ships could take different paths from a formation leader causing formations to be split. Now all ships will take the same path that formation leader does.

  • Fixed issues with incoming damage and armor strength.

  • Fixed issue with MP server.

  • Fixed duplicate flair effects on titan.

  • Fixed issue with joinable servers list.

Multiplayer Lobby

  • Added support for hosting games where the scenario comes from a mod.

  • Added hold Shift to block account when kicking a player from the lobby. Users found it clunky to always block the kicked user permanently by default. Note: This feature will only work with the next game server version.

AI

  • Added lots of AI improvements. Thanks for all the save games!

Effects

  • Improved weapon effects being clipped out in large battles.

Misc

  • Added build_point effect.

sins ii support
12,441 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Sins2 Forums Top

  • Hull - has the Crippled State, which is a unique mechanic applying to Capital Ships and Titans. These powerful ships are not destroyed at 0 Hull Points; instead entering the Crippled State with a secondary hull point pool which is a percentage of primary hull point pool (currently 100% for capital ships and 50% for titans). While in this state, the unit can still move and regenerate its various types of Effective Health point types, but it will be unable to use weapons, abilities or active components. If it reaches 0 Hull Points again while Crippled, it is destroyed. If it is repaired above its Crippled hull point total, it will become active again.


This seems like a needless, confusing trap for new players.

Reply #2 from Sins2 Forums Top

Potentially.

That concern was evaluated and decided it was still worth a test (and can still be removed based on feedback). I won't go into all the pros/cons of the system, but a counter point specifically w/r to new players is losing your capital ship(s) (especially early on) can be a devastating event and new players aren't going to easy recover from that, either in terms of gameplay success or psychologically (also why we added the insurance policy item by default).

We've observed that typically new players have a difficult time judging when it's a good time to retreat their capital ships. They often see the green bar go down to a certain point (too late) and then attempt to exit. By letting the green bar hit zero and then enter the crippled state, they have a 'phew' opportunity to get the ship out. And because that ship no longer offers any combat utility, its not overly penalizing the attacking player in the current tactical situation.

This isn't something we could accomplish by simply making the capital ships ever more resilient because new players would still base their judgement on where the green bar is at the moment and misjudge. From many new players' perspective, the raw magnitude is irrelevant, its the size of the bar which reflects % that matters. But until they have incorporated a sense of the damage values, effective health properties, and ability modifiers in relation to their green bar, the problem will persist. The change of state in both behavior and visuals should make it very clear that 'now' is definitely the time to retreat. And even if it is too late, at least we've increased their chances of avoiding that devastating loss.

Now a quick counter-counter point - while the attacking player isn't penalized in the current tactical situation, it does penalize them in the strategic situation because that powerful unit can now repair be brought back into the macro game after some time. New players on the attacking side will likely be annoyed by this but from our perspective, its better to be annoyed by not killing a capital ship than losing a capital ship (esp for new players).

If it appears we are catering to new players at the expense of experienced players, I would say no - that's just reflection of me addressing the specific case you identified. Experienced players are able to account for the behavior and have tools to deal with it - and it creates some really exciting moments and gameplay. Details for another time.

Either way, if the community ends up not not liking it we'll either change or remove it :)

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Sins2 Forums Top

Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 1

This seems like a needless, confusing trap for new players.


I don't know about it being a trap.
Still, the idea of having a health bar hidden behind another health bar strikes me as an odd choice (it's not something I'd expect given everything else in the game so far). Based on how the shields "stack" over the hull points, I'd assume that the hull points would stack over the 'crippled hull'. Voice lines could be included with the ship either pleading to fall back or declaring its willingness martyr itself.

The image below has the current visual on top & my concept of a non-hidden crippled HP on the bottom, or at least what I'd be looking for as an indicator.

As for whether or not this would help, IDK yet. I don't know how the combat overhaul is going to feel until I get a chance to play it. From my last few games, the crippled state would really only save enemy ships from me while my fleet supply is still on the low side (not enough dps). Late game, I tend to try & "catch" the invading enemy at one of my planets by building a phase jump inhibitor after they arrive.

The inability to save ships tends to come from their slow movement speed, at least for me (not to say that they should be faster).

I do like the idea of hull points having the 'crippled' mechanic though. Can't really say more until I'm allowed to play with it, so I'll elaborate further in a sit-reps later.

Reply #4 from Sins2 Forums Top

I like the cripple mechanic, it does seem like a huge loss if you lose your first ship early on. Yes, skill, but games take long as it is and it can be probably a bit too devastating. Kudos.


Correct me if im wrong, but as far as faction differentiation:

TEC - economy + tanky/grindy fleet

Vasari - Efficient + firepower

Advent - synergistic + firepower 

 

I think TEC fleet is a bit lacking at the moment in the tanky department. I feel like hull/armor can be higher so that Hoshiko's healing is more impactful. Hoping that this update goes in that direction.

 

Id also suggest that you make the TEC capitol ships better at that niche as well. Kortul Devastator feels WAY more tanky than a Kol with the shield ability and a hoshiko healing him. That seems wrong. Considering Kol damage output isnt great, and most people refer to it as a brick, it needs to be a better brick, cant have a cannonball (Kortul) be a better brick than the brick.

 

Also, Dunov shielding ability needs to be a bit better, hoping that this update makes his shield recharge a bit better at supporting capitol ships. As of now, 250 shields seems quite insignificant.

 

Would also love to see a bit more interaction between Sova and fleet. Having all the PDs on it, maybe give it a temp boost of PD efficacy to serve as a shield for the army.

 

Any thoughts or word on strike craft balance? Both in terms of their efficacy as well as how one is to counter them with flak frigates. Currently, there doesnt seem to be a good counter to mass strike craft.

Reply #5 from Sins2 Forums Top

Quoting StormingKiwi, reply 1


Quoting ,
quoting post



    • Hull - has the Crippled State, which is a unique mechanic applying to Capital Ships and Titans. These powerful ships are not destroyed at 0 Hull Points; instead entering the Crippled State with a secondary hull point pool which is a percentage of primary hull point pool (currently 100% for capital ships and 50% for titans). While in this state, the unit can still move and regenerate its various types of Effective Health point types, but it will be unable to use weapons, abilities or active components. If it reaches 0 Hull Points again while Crippled, it is destroyed. If it is repaired above its Crippled hull point total, it will become active again.






This seems like a needless, confusing trap for new players.

 

Nothing that couldn't be solved by tutorials imho

Reply #6 from Sins2 Forums Top

Could ships be made to retreat automatically after a certain amount of specified damage?

 And ships that do retreat should do so at the that particular ships fastest full engines ahead speed.

Add a graphic around ships trying to retreat....

Reply #7 from Sins2 Forums Top

Quoting Dimistar, reply 4

Also, Dunov shielding ability needs to be a bit better, hoping that this update makes his shield recharge a bit better at supporting capitol ships. As of now, 250 shields seems quite insignificant.


Yes, that ability has always seemed odd. Early on it seems to be a mechanic to save a key frigate or cruiser. The problem is that individual small ships are rarely worth the antimatter.

 

Edit: wait.. in SoaSE2, can you even use the ability on frigates or cruisers? 200 shield points on a capital ship is very situational.



Quoting Blair, reply 2

Potentially.

That concern was evaluated and decided it was still worth a test (and can still be removed based on feedback). I won't go into all the pros/cons of the system, but a counter point specifically w/r to new players is losing your capital ship(s) (especially early on) can be a devastating event and new players aren't going to easy recover from that, either in terms of gameplay success or psychologically (also why we added the insurance policy item by default).

We've observed that typically new players have a difficult time judging when it's a good time to retreat their capital ships. They often see the green bar go down to a certain point (too late) and then attempt to exit. By letting the green bar hit zero and then enter the crippled state, they have a 'phew' opportunity to get the ship out. And because that ship no longer offers any combat utility, its not overly penalizing the attacking player in the current tactical situation.

This isn't something we could accomplish by simply making the capital ships ever more resilient because new players would still base their judgement on where the green bar is at the moment and misjudge. From many new players' perspective, the raw magnitude is irrelevant, its the size of the bar which reflects % that matters. But until they have incorporated a sense of the damage values, effective health properties, and ability modifiers in relation to their green bar, the problem will persist. The change of state in both behavior and visuals should make it very clear that 'now' is definitely the time to retreat. And even if it is too late, at least we've increased their chances of avoiding that devastating loss.

Now a quick counter-counter point - while the attacking player isn't penalized in the current tactical situation, it does penalize them in the strategic situation because that powerful unit can now repair be brought back into the macro game after some time. New players on the attacking side will likely be annoyed by this but from our perspective, its better to be annoyed by not killing a capital ship than losing a capital ship (esp for new players).

If it appears we are catering to new players at the expense of experienced players, I would say no - that's just reflection of me addressing the specific case you identified. Experienced players are able to account for the behavior and have tools to deal with it - and it creates some really exciting moments and gameplay. Details for another time.

Either way, if the community ends up not not liking it we'll either change or remove it


Thank you for taking the time to express the reasoning behind the crippled state.

I'm fully supportive of the game and community being accessible to new players, rewarding the skill and expertise of experienced players, and being fun for all groups.

I disagree with a hidden health bar and a changed combat state being the best way to teach the player when to retreat because, as you identify, that question is more complicated and takes skill and experience to learn and recognise the patterns of when tactical scenario makes it untenable to continue with combat. It could still be that the crippled-state ships get focused down by excessive DPS, in which case the crippled state doesn't teach the player anything. As alluded to above by Erebus6937, it can be pretty often the case that movement speed (turning and linear) prevents a ship from being saved.

I am amused by the idea that losing ships devastates the player psychologically - it is a setting where spaceships blow each other up. Sometimes, loss avoidance is the best teacher. As is said in Dwarf Fortress circles, losing is fun. (I'm sure they mean learning is fun, and losing is the best motivator, but I digress.)

An issue somewhat unaddressed is that minor wins in battles can lead to a death spiral, where a single momentous advantage can win the game because it takes out effective counterplay and leads to a snowballing/steamrolling effect. In my opinion, battles should be decisive without being crippling to the future of the war. There should be some ebb, flow, push, pull and counterplay.

It is hard to make a judgement on the crippled state without playing multiplayer - I've noticed the AI does not seem to recognise the need to retreat crippled state ships yet. It seems a bit odd that the crippled state affects starbases too.

I agree with the UI depiction of health bars suggested by Erebus6937. I would suggest contextually coloured hull bars (red at low hull, orange at middle, green at close to full) and danger sound effects, ala Pokémon.

Reply #8 from Sins2 Forums Top

To bad some of those "moving turrets" could'nt be targeted and destroyed to add some strategies to the game.

Reply #9 from Sins2 Forums Top

Quoting wbino3556, reply 6

Could ships be made to retreat automatically after a certain amount of specified damage?

 And ships that do retreat should do so at the that particular ships fastest full engines ahead speed.

Add a graphic around ships trying to retreat....

I don't know if I'd want this to be a standard behavior, but it'd be neat if the behavior could be applied to ships either as an ability/tag or across all ships owned by a player from a modding perspective.

Musings:

  • Economic AI: it'd be funny if all their ships attempted to retreat once they have 30% hull remaining. "You're not paying me enough for this!!!!" or "I need better life insurance!!" kinda things,,
  • For TEC-Rebels, pirate ships attempt to retreat after taking too much damage
  • Pirates NPC, pirate ships attempt to retreat to pirate base to repair after hulls reach 25% (most won't survive, but idea is more for flavor - pirates want to loot)
Reply #10 from Sins2 Forums Top

Well, the armor and crippled states are functionally just extra health bars. This results in it taking longer (considerably so) to take down a capital ship or starbase. I'm kind of ambivalent on whether I like it or not so far, as it doesn't appear to be better or worse for me but different. However, I do applaud the attempt and if it sticks it wouldn't be a bad thing for me I think. One positive is that it can buy more time for you to bring defenses into a planetary assault as it takes longer to take down heavier ships. 

Reply #11 from Sins2 Forums Top

Interesting idea. But in current implementation faced that my vassari Star base with 3 armor upgrades (star base items) couldn't even survive for the time my fleet make jump from neighboring planet, as I remember, it was in the middle of gravity well, when I saw enemy fleet (TEC with ogrs) is jumping. So may be Star bases should be more protected with this new feature?