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TGT Soft sues Stardock (just in time for the holidays :( )

TGT Soft sues Stardock (just in time for the holidays :( )

Well it looks like the folks at TGT Soft are in the holiday spirit (not!).  On Wednesday Stardock received a lawsuit from TGT Soft that was filed in .

The lawsuit essentially asks for a declaration that TGT Soft can use Stardock’s IconPackager theme format without liability. 

This incident began last month with the first beta of Style XP 2.0 which had a button labeled “Add an Icon Pack” which when pressed opened a dialog in which they could load a .iptheme or .ip file (IconPackager files). We were fairly annoyed that 1) They would try to compete with IconPackager/Object Desktop by using IconPackager files (remember, they sell this thing), 2) That they didn’t even give us credit for our icon packaging format but instead referred to them as “icon packs” as if .ipthemes were some generic term created by the ASCII group or something and 3) They didn’t even create icon packages but rather planned to just exploit the popularity of IconPackager which we’ve worked hard and long on for many years to make popular.

We informed them that this was unacceptable and we would defend our rights either technically or legally if necessary. If they want to compete with Object Desktop or IconPackager they would need to come up with their own format that they have to support and promote.  If they want to put out an icon changing program, that’s fine. But to copy our format and use it so that they can undercut the price of our software is unacceptable and we believe, illegal. 

In subsequent correspondence, we even offered to license them the use of our format for a modest royalty (remember, this isn’t a freeware program we’re talking about, they’re selling Style XP for $20 a pop). Their response was to reject that and file a lawsuit that seems to be designed to force us to let them use/convert our IconPackager theme format without any compensation. 

Apparently they would have it where we would be the ones to provide the software to create and support icon packages (which is where most of the development/marketing costs have come from) and they would just reap the benefits financially. Note that Style XP 2.0 currently does not seem to have the ability to actually create icon packages/sets. Only apply them.

They have subsequently come up with their own format (.iconset) but since they can’t actually create .iconset files from their program, they rely on a new program they’ve made, IconTranslate, which seems to exist primarily to convert IconPackager themes to their “.IconSet” format. And once installed turns on a feature in Style XP to read IconPackager themes directly from within their program.

Picture this scenario then: Someone buys Style XP instead of IconPackager or Object Desktop costing us income. Then their customers would come to WinCustomize.com to download icon packages to use with their program, costing us more money since we pay for the bandwidth.  We pay the costs, they make the money, and to top it off, they’re suing us, costing us legal expenses.

To us, this situation is akin to someone asking a skinner to let them port their skin to a different platform and if the skinner says no then turning around and suing them to try to force the skinner to let them port their skin. Stardock fully intends to defend its intellectual property rights.  The implications if TGT Soft were to win are far reaching not just to Stardock but intellectual property holders everywhere including skin and theme authors.

We generally feel that people who create stuff should have a say over how that stuff is used. Stardock worked long and hard to make IconPackager a success. Its popularity is not due to marketing but due to the hard work over a long period of time (ex: making it possible to create and apply icons on Windows 95, Windows 95 + IE4, Windows 98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP).  Doing that was not easy as early IconPackager users can attest to. It was very hard to make IconPackager work reliably on the many different versions of Windows, different interactions with the OS and Internet Explorer, etc. But this was part of the effort necessary to make IconPackager successful and why it’s the most popular, by far, icon packaging technology available.  On top of that, Stardock has paid many thousands of dollars over the years to create icon packages to help promote our program and format (such as the recently released Christmas Time IconPackager theme).

 

For someone to simply come along and try to cash in on our hard work without any compensation strikes us as both morally and legally wrong.  But to actually sue us (and they are also suing me personally, not just Stardock and I can say, on a personal note, getting a lawsuit that targets me personally a week before Christmas is pretty crummy) is just incredible.

Like I said, we don’t have a problem with them changing icons or making icon sets. What features they add to their program are their business. But to try to profit from our hard work over many years is wrong and to file a lawsuit against us (and me personally) to try to force us to let them use our intellectual property goes beyond words.

So that’s where we’re at.  We will defend our rights because the implications it would have on all our software as well as on the community. If people who create things don’t get to have a say on how it’s used, it would likely have a chilling effect on our community – whether you’re a skin author, an icon artist, a theme author, or a software developer.

 

IconPackager’s page is: https://www.stardock.com/products/iconpackager/

69,097 views 281 replies
Reply #201 Top
Guys...leave it here. Don't go dragging this flame war all over the intarweb.

I for one would like to see this thread deleted. I think everyone's said what they're going to say. Now this thread has become a witch hunt for ex-wc users. We're not lawyers. You never know how it might be used.

[edit]/me should have hit refresh and read Jafo's post before hitting sumbmit.[/edit]

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Reply #202 Top

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Reply #203 Top
I hope the Judge really gets bent out of shape with them for starting this mess and waisting the Judges time. I really do, one time in court I watch this Judge really get ignorant with a persons wife and so the person lashed out verbally at the Judge and boy did he prove it was his court room !

I hope something similar happens with TGT Soft, be funny for them to sit for a period of time in the Louisiana County Jail where the Court House is located

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Reply #204 Top
This is by far one of the most ridiculous threads I have
ever read. In the first place the Original topic should
never have been brought to this message board, nor
should it have been taken to forums on other sites...

I understand that WC is a Stardock site.. But.. If
someone needs info or help with a Stardock product,
you are given a link or a quite cold and abrupt notice
that WC cannot help and go to Stardock site for that
info...

If you are complementing Stardock, WC is very warm
and friendly and accepts your gracious praise...

In my estimation, Frogboy should not bring Company
business to a public forum... When he elected to bring
this subject to an open forum for all to see and
comment... Then I say why stop there... Bring ALL the
company business and post your last quarterly financial..
I would be more interested in that, than being advised of
the legal problems that the Company is facing...

It took 194 posts before the moderators came in to keep
a thread on subject. Because what I am reading in this
thread, it’s SO far off subject its appalling. But than
again I see it on all of the controversial subjects here at
WC.. I understand that if a hundred people read a
controversial thread, you will get a hundred different
opinions... But that is life.. discuss it intelligently and the
subject takes on a new understanding among those
debating it... But ONLY if it is kept on topic.

Frogboy, you project yourself as an intelligent
businessman... until you do something so naive as to
bring this to the attention of subordinates and customers
alike... It behooves you to hire a Public Relations
Officer to make your comments publicly...

Reply #206 Top

Buko22....Stardock tends to have a comparatively open policy regarding issues that affect its user-base or customers.....and in this particular instance the subject matter is of immediate relevance to those who actual skin the products, be it Windowblinds, or StyleXP for that matter.

It may be seen as a gripe-fest or bitch-session but that is simply heart-felt responses to an issue that affects those who actually are intimately involved in the 'skinning game'.

No-one needs a PR person, certainly not Frogboy, who is sufficiently astute to decide what is appropriate or not.

My specific requests to return to topic relate to the last dozen or so comments where the course strayed a tad, that is all....

Reply #207 Top
I think the difference between Stardock's financial reports and news of being sued is the fact that Stardock isn't sued by TGT Soft over use of the IP format annually (unless I'm mistaken). Therefore, this is news, while a financial quarterly isn't.



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Reply #208 Top
on the financial info, rather boggling and leaves one to wonder about the interest in the first place...
Reply #209 Top
Seems to me that not only can they not be bothered to create something themselves they have to get a court to allow them to steal from other software developers and icon set developers that don't even make any money from their passion and hard grafting.

And also just seems a way to promote a soon to be product by getting this in the public eye as it were.......if their apps were any good they wouldn't have to resort to back alley, low down tactics just to promote the cr^p they put out.

Go Brad!
Reply #210 Top
Stardock is into the desktop enhancing bussiness since OS/2 years ago. What they have learned there they are bringing to the Windows desktop and are adding brand new concepts to it. Then this new kid on the block (TGTSoft) thinks they can bring that level of sophistication overnight. The kid's methods are well known by now. And I think it is spoiled and naughty.

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Reply #211 Top
From reading on tgtsoft's website, their staff all have college degrees. That leads me to think they aren't entirely idiots. Thus bringing me to wonder why they decided to bring a suit against Stardock. I can only presume that they beleive they have a justifiable reason and thus stand a chance in a courtroom. Therefore in order to understand tgtsoft and its suit against Stardock that reason needs to be found.

Being that this is a Stardock supported site it is understandable that many posters consider this suit to be detestable. And in that respect they post their opinions. However, since the posting majority is obviously biased, all of these posts have little meaning besides making Frogboy (Brad Wardell) and the rest of Stardock (and the users of its products) feel better. I, for one, am guilty of posting comments to that effect.

In order for this thread to be worthwhile, constructive criticism needs to be approached. Considering tgtsofts suit as not completely ludicrous is the first step. Next you have to ponder tgtsoft's reasons as I did earlier in this post. Finally an educated guess is in order. These guesses will provide an intelligent level of thought in this thread and for the whole matter altogether.

In conclusion we need to find out why tgtsoft is doing what it is doing: Is it really an ignorant fallicy, is it failing financially and this is its last breath, or is it a meaningful suit that might have some backing? It could be any of those, or even something else. So lets step back, cool off, and look at it all in a different light.

Just my try at an unbiased opinion.
Reply #212 Top
Hmm, Interesting. Is it possible to get a transcript of the lawsuit?

If TGT should win, it will spawn more lawsuits relating to the subject matter. (TGT goes off suing every other company...) If they should lose, there should be a counter-suit. Have the process done all at once, such action/practice should not go unpunished (2 birds, 1 stone).
Reply #213 Top

Crazy Travis and a half....take it from me...if it looks like sh**, smells like sh** and tastes like sh** do not bother standing it as it will then be simply sh** on your shoes....

No amount of stepped-back, unbiased, rational thinking will alter the reality that this is a fatuous and invidiously frivolous suit which is doomed to failure [unless the United States Courts of Law are even more ridiculous than the most cynical could have envisaged].

Never ever presume that all support for a particular side [or other] of a situation is fueled by ignorant blind following and not actually that of independent, rational and intelligent opinion holders who may know more  about the subject than you.

Reply #214 Top
I think there is a couple of false assumptions. They aren't doing it to get rich quick off Stardock. I really don't think there is any money to be made here. Even the cost of a fast win would outweigh their gain. They appear to just be retaliating for Stardock telling them to stop hijacking the iptheme format for their own use.

Also, don't assume they ever intend for this to be decided legally. They most likely think Stardock will weigh the legal cost and lay off. If it starts to look like TGT will have to go to undue expense, my opinion is they'll drop it.

They could also, I might add, sue folks who make statements they perceive to be false or unfairly damaging online. Would they win? Who knows, that isn't really their point, is it?


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Reply #215 Top
I really appreciate that everyone who is pro stardock (and even can argue the reasons) is a 'Stardock fanboy' in other forums while people just doing unreflected bashing, lies and such crap are the ones considered doing 'criticism' only.


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Reply #216 Top
From reading on tgtsoft's website, their staff all have college degrees. That leads me to think they aren't entirely idiots.

Graduating from college has nothing to do with being smart. All it means is that person had enough dicipline to put up with at least four years of BS (crap).
Reply #217 Top

Was just thinking the same, Orion.

I remember a survey that was done a few years ago. They just asked basic general knowledge questions to College students. The shocker was that 30% of them answered "True" to the statement "The sun passes between the Moon and the Earth in the winter." Or something like that, I quote from memory.  Another amasing number, near 50% or so, got the wrong answer to a basic math question (a division by 0 - something like 594 / 0 = 594: true or false).

Anyway, going to college has nothing to do with being smart.  I should know, I went to college myself.

Reply #218 Top
Don't College degrees come from Cornflakes packets?...
Reply #219 Top
Jafo, everyone knows they come from the internet. It's called spam!



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Reply #220 Top
No...that's Viagra and bigger penises...
Reply #222 Top
#220 by Admin Jafo - 12/22/2003 8:40:01 AM


Or breasts!

Sorry for sidetracking the thread.



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Reply #223 Top

I think Buko22 ignored the fact that I am personally being sued as well.

From a PR point of view, I can definitely see where TGT Soft wouldn't want this to be public knowledge. However, I don't see why we should keep this "quiet". Perhaps people would be less inclined to do despicable things if they knew that their actions would be aired pubilcly.

The reaction to TGT Soft's actions have been pretty universal regardless of what website has reported on it, btw.

Reply #224 Top
Has TGT Soft ever said what they plan to do when Longhorn comes out and their patch is no longer good? I would be curious if they have ever addressed that with their customers. Surely they (TGT Soft customers) have to wonder what will happen.



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Reply #225 Top
This is very interesting stuff; I find it intellectually stimulating to read about the evils that men do in business, thanks for sharing. I think what these guys are doing is so illogical, that it could be nothing other than a “banzai charge.” The lawsuit must be a final retaliatory strike from a dying company who probably blame Stardock for their failure. All of that kindred spirit stuff is BS, these guys are malicious, they are cut throats.