Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

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Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

from WinCustomize Forums

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,859 views 522 replies
Reply #351 from WinCustomize Forums Top
f0r3, I don't see things changing much at all for Stardock Customers or WC
subscribers. Since they already pay for the site, they will still get the goods.
However, I do see a few things that could be changed: 1) non-subscribers would
be drastically limited 2) No downloads without registering 3) a new "paid" skins
section that subscribers get a price break on I think that #3 is important for
two reasons. I think that we are losing a lot of the great skin authors because
they need to spend their time making things that make money. There is also not a
lot of incentive for people to spend the time really polishing their skins at
this point. I have had many people email me asking to donate to the site. I will
spend some time over the holidays trying to work out a system for this, and talk
with the admins to see if it will fly. My idea is to set up a Paypal account
(they really don't take any more fees than the regular credit card processing
does). The Paypal account will collect donations to fund an on going contest. As
long as there are donations, there will be prizes. Every month we will award
prizes in the form of WC subscriptions. That way it will get more "new" skinners
interested and hopefully help out some of the artists that can not afford a
subscription. People who already have a subscription can also donate $5 or
whatever to help out the donation bin. If you have idea on how to run this, or
ideas on things that can help, please email me.
Reply #352 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have sat on my hands after my initial post on this thread and watched with interest. Many of the thoughts and ideas which have come up have been interesting and the debate as a whole has been most informative. There are several angles that i had never considered and i was especially interested in Jafo and Brad's point regarding the "knock on" effect that we have on other sites.

Whilst some of the ideas like "paid for skins" sound interesting i really think we are over complicating matters somewhat unnecessarily and after due consideration i have expanded my initial solutions and put more detail to them as follows:-

1. All unregistered access to the site is limited to "VIEWING ONLY".

2. All unregistered users are immediately directed to a "SIGN ON" page on arrival at the site where they are given the following options:-

A. Purchase a Stardock product or products. A brief overview of all
the products would be given here together with their respective cost.
These costs to include full access to Wincustomize. No more separate
subs for Wincustomize. Press this button and you are sent to Stardock
and make your purchase.

B. Download a Stardock product or products on a "try before you buy"
basis for say a 45 day period which will time expire itself. Several
options within this package are to be disabled. This package to
include sufficient skins to wet someones appetite. NO DOWNLOAD ACCESS
AT WINCUSTOMIZE. Again press this button and you are sent off to
Stardock to download your package.

C. For those who do not wish to partake in A. or B. but want download
access a $10 annual fee is required and they will sign on, register
and pay here.

D. To continue onto the site but on a "VIEWING BASIS" only.


3. All current Stardock product subscribers. When annual subscription comes up for renewal the cost is to include costs for full unlimited access to Wincustomize. i.e Object Desktop would now cost $10 more than it does now. Suscribers to Windowblinds or Icon Packager only would have their subscriptions increased by same ratio. There is one small issue with this in that most peoples WC subs come up for renewal at a different time than their Stardock product renewal but i am sure a solution can be found to reimbursing or carrying over subs in order to get everything
dovetailed in.

Surely by going down this route it would be easier to administer.

I am all for making this easy for everyone concerned - Stardock, Wincustomize, Skinners and consumers.

The freeloaders have had it easy for too long and we need to close the
door and make them either join this wonderful community or go elsewhere. Many of them are laughing their heads off at us, yes - all of us, and think we are an "easy ride". Tell me that does not "get your goat". Do you think they give a "flying f" about this place. No they don't. They will just take, take, take and keep laughing in your face.

There maybe a place for a separate premium suite or exclusive skins section at Wincustomize and i for one would encourage this aspect but lets deal with the "front door" first and get the rest of the house sorted afterwards.

I hope the subscription drive is a success but regardless of this i still feel we need to change things around here at the front end. I do not think that any of my suggestions will effect our community in any way and it will still be the best skinning site in the World - by a long way - All that will happen is that the "free lunch brigade" will move on elsewhere.

Please feel free to shoot down some of the things i have said in flames as i do not have the experience that Brad or Jafo or some of the other senior's have on this subject matter. Maybe there are some matters that i have not considered so please feel free to shout.......but be gentle.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #353 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Your Idea sounds actually quiet good to me, but I doubt that Stardock wants to tie its products so directly to the WC website. After all, a price increase for OD might lead to a decrease of OD subscriptions?

The first point now is to fix the "holes" in the system and see how this affects the financial situation of the site, if this does not change anything significantly, the second step would be to lay off the level 1 users.
I personally would wait before changes were made to level 3 users, since some of them might have had OD subscriptions for years and download restrictions could prevent them from renewing their subscription the next time round.

/me is waiting for that donation link
Reply #354 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Your Idea sounds actually quiet good to me, but I doubt that Stardock wants to tie its products so directly to the WC website. After all, a price increase for OD might lead to a decrease of OD subscriptions?


You make a very valid point.........but where else can they get the variety and volume of skins to go with the software you have purchased? Ok there are some on DA (which incidentally i am a fully paid up subcriber too as well) and then you have got the "pro's" like Pixtudio, SkinPlant and Essorants site. Heck, I bet most of the people who care about this place have stumped up 70 bucks for the products and WC subs but we are subsidising the "freeloaders" big time and they are laughing their socks off at us.

Whats the big deal with Stardock and Wincustomize being so close? Its no secret? Does it really affect anyone or Stardock for that matter? Am i being totally niave? I can feel one of Jafo's history lessons coming on
[Message Edited]
Reply #355 from WinCustomize Forums Top
#352 by Leo the Lion - 12/12/2003 2:15:02 PM 2. All unregistered users are immediately directed to a "SIGN ON" page on arrival at the site where they are given the following options:-



I think that may be more annoying. Coming to a site and immediately being asked to register--lets not forget new users whom should have a chance to see whats here. Maybe something like IGN where when you click to download, you get a message saying 'you must subscribe, yada yada yada'...That message should also be placed elsewhere when just browsing for users without an account.

I think before this subscription drive is over the 'no downloading for visitors' should be implemented. Because of the fact a certain percentage will buy a subscriptions here (instead of a regular account), and move us closer to the 500 mark.
Reply #356 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I definitely agree that some of the pieces that will be needed no matter what should be implemented as soon as they can. Maybe we can force a few of the freeloaders to register if we cause them some heartache now as opposed to later.
Reply #357 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think that may be more annoying. Coming to a site and immediately being asked to register--lets not forget new users whom should have a chance to see whats here. Maybe something like IGN where when you click to download, you get a message saying 'you must subscribe, yada yada yada'...That message should also be placed elsewhere when just browsing for users without an account.


Very, Very good point DJ. Its cosmetic but its important in attracting new people.
Reply #358 from WinCustomize Forums Top
2. stop growing. Why not? What's the use of getting so big that it can't be supported. So WinCustomize gets more traffic than most other (if not all) skin sites. Why not cap the downloads, decimate the available content to only the best of the best, make things exclusive.


Sounds good to me.

Why grow just to end up spending more money then you get in?
Reply #359 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh and doesn't this site have a sister mirror site?

You have to allow for some downloads and veiwing and trying and some "having fun", but while doing that try to make it such that your not allowing them to download files larger than 1.5 megs.

10 megabyte wallpaper?
No download.
5 megabyte SysMetrix?
No download.

It wouldn't matter to much that some will make multiple accounts because they can only get so much anyway (like 20 megabytes in total)

Inactive accounts are distroyed after 2 months unless registared or at aprentice level (which means they have contributed so much [art work, messageboard, skins] that they get to keep the account indefiniatly)



I love brain storming.
Reply #360 from WinCustomize Forums Top
i say stop the non registerd downloads. the higher the user level. the more content and higher rated content u can download.

make it diversified so u can get some $ from all types of users, not just the power users.

different user levels cost diff prices and have respective caps on quantity and quality downloaded...

.. keep the differences between level 3 and 4 the same. but add more tasty goodies to the level 4's extras..

that way the existing customers are not adversely effected .. and uve reduced the amt of non playing trafic. while offereing a wider variety of subscription choices .even a $5 sub is worth something if their dl size and quality. is kept under what they use in resources ...
Reply #361 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I purchased the subscription. Hope it helps with WC.
Reply #362 from WinCustomize Forums Top
all subscriptions help getting the new servers is the drives goal:)

i think the even the bigger picture is getting the site self sustaining .. that way the devs can worry more abt running the site rather than how to afford the mass bills every month...
Reply #363 from WinCustomize Forums Top
the skinning at this site is unsurpased. these guys make the site. mormegil,pixstudio,frog boy,danillo, and the rest of these skilled artists. id personaly like to thank all of you for ur time and works of art..the skins i have gotten here have made boring days fun. the pleasure my family and i recieve in viewing the various desktops and goodies is unmeasurable. seasons greetings to u all
Reply #364 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Karmagirl:

If and when Paypal is set up I will be THE FIRST to donate. In fact I will donate from every Ebay sell I make.

Might not be enough to get a sub but it will help.
Reply #365 from WinCustomize Forums Top
From where I sit, WC is over 1/2 way to the 500 subscriptions with over 1/2 a month left. So it looks very likely that they will go over 500. So it looks like nothing will change. So enjoy.



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Reply #366 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I will still donate just so you guys can not call me a freeloader anymore
Reply #367 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Hmm combo of paxx's idea and joetheblow's idea combined:

Unregistered: View previews.

User 2, less than appenice:
7 days delay, cap set to 50 mb, less than 1 mb downloads only

User 3, apperence or better
24 hours delay, no download cap, no download file size limit

User 4, or journeyman and higher
no delay on downloads.
Reply #368 from WinCustomize Forums Top

WOM....things still will need to change...the economic model needs to improve...

An alternative slant on Frogboy's posting of this thread could just be a mild frustration that the 'uptake' of contributions was perhaps an indication that the general membership taken as a whole [the community] was a bit too reticent to actually come forward and be willing to contribute.

It's fantastic that several people are willing to 'donate' subs as prizes, etc.....but in reality the world would be a rosier place if no incentives were necessary.....when a need is felt everyone happily steps in to help out...

As is the norm with most groups, enterprises, communities....there will be those who sit back and leave the problem-solving/help to others....'never mind, someone will fix it if I wait long enough'.

Things go all pear-shaped when EVERYONE thinks exactly the same and no-one at all steps forward to help.

Assuming the massive visitor/user base this site has, one would imagine that a thousand or two new subs per month was a legitimate expectation.  The fact it's apparently not the case presupposes that more 'freeloaders' than imagined make use of the site and its content and the same old bunch of us are carrying the can.

Sure, circumstances differ from one person to the next...and it'd be totally unrealistic to imagine every visitor would/could register, etc....but the number of those who do to those who do not is 'disheartening'...

Reply #369 from WinCustomize Forums Top
WOM....things still will need to change...the economic model needs to improve...


Right,on Jafo.......in one, on the nail.

Not only that but we owe it to all those people who have subscribed to get things sorted at the "front door".

Mark my words.....If we don't get this sorted we will face this situation again in six months time and it will not be pretty to watch
Reply #370 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I can appreciate the thought that has gone into a lot of these ideas, but I think all this kind of obfuscates the situation. Things were tolerable, the servers died, then they weren't.

If you direct unregistered downloaders to the sign-up page, you get them started on their 50 meg limit. This reduces traffic and sets visitors on the path toward a subscription. If the subscription drive repairs the servers, and forcing people to site-register creates at least *some* increase in income, wouldn't WC be better off than ever?

I don't think WC needs a painful, Soviet-esque 5-year plan. Just sew up the holes, replace the hardware and see if it floats. If it doesn't, then decide where to trim fat. No point in alienating legit users until you know it is necessary.


[Message Edited]
Reply #371 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And here's another thought for all of you who have been loyal contributors to Wincustomize and Stardock.......there are quite a number of people out there who have got illegal copies of Stardock software that they have not paid a penny for. They happily waltz in here on a daily basis and pick up all the skins that they want. As you have seen its as easy as pie to get round the 50mb download limit. How does that make you feel when you have shelled out 70 bucks for your rights? I know how it makes me feel. Oh! and i have met some of these people believe you me and they don't care a monkey's arse about Wincustomize. As far as they are concerned this place is their playground to come and go as they please and take the gear and run. There's also the "continual" trial users as well who do the same thing or the "just free programmes" brigade.

If we get the "front door" properly secured then everyone who loves this place and loves Stardock's products will benefit.......and benefit big time........sitting on our backsides slapping each other on the back after we achieve the 500 new subscribers will not make this problem go away. Next time it will return with a vengeance and it will not be nice for anyone concerned.
Reply #372 from WinCustomize Forums Top
BakerStreet.......tolerable? This place was like a well oiled machine before the server crash. By this i mean everything from the speed of the site to the way it was run by the admins. You could not ask for more........and if you compare it with other sites......well put it this way you cannot compare.....Wincustomize is in a totally different league and i am a paying and active contributor to several of them. This place rocks.....to coin a phrase, which is a testament to its past and present management. And whats more it will continue to rock.

Forget the 50mb starter limit........the piss takers walk right around this time and time again. Sorry about the language but i feel strongly about this.

alienating legit users?......I think you will find that we are very much in the minority
Reply #373 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Leo: I dunno if you get what i am saying or not. I said if everything was fine before the servers crashed, why undertake massive change? Fix the servers with the drive money and maybe restrict anonymous downloads.

By 'tolerable', I mean I don't see the point in changing limits, new user levels, etc, if things were tolerable before the hardware trouble.
Reply #374 from WinCustomize Forums Top
BakerStreet........i get what you are saying and i am with you on most of it . I just don't want the membership to sit back and hope everything will sort itself out or someone will appear with a magic wand because it won't happen. I am hoping that my last two or three posts may have enlightened some people further.

There are a couple of other tricky angles to all this when you think about it as deeply as i have done. I am not going to touch on those until i get some answers in my head.

Sorry if i sound a bit touchy but i am fiercely loyal to this place and i love it and everything that goes with it. I understand you feel likewise.

The bottom line is Brad knows what he is doing and i am sure he will make the right decisions together with all the other seniors of this site.

[Message Edited]
Reply #375 from WinCustomize Forums Top
What I can't figure is why all the skin artists aren't getting paid in this new idea. Will this site keep all the money and profit from someone elses work? I am not stirring a pot, I just have a few questions. I understand what's going on. But I think the site should be either subscription only, or left as is.