Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

95,981 views 522 replies
Reply #226 Top
I think the first step should be to simply increase the incentive to subscribe. I mean to be honest, the current incentives don't have a strong enough appeal for most people.

Losing the site is a bloody good incentive!
Times change and if you stand still you go under.
Subscribers have access, freeloaders get a 10 skin d/l and that's all she wrote!
And the trial version of WB should be 'neutered' to only handle 10 skins at a time.
Nothing is free.



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Reply #227 Top
I have only been here a short time but from what I have seen on this site in the last few months it would be very sad to see it go. Since I have found and start using OD this is about the only website I visit anymore. So, my question is I have already gotten my subscription and want to do more if I can. If you purchase any of the stuff from wincustomize store will that help also? I have been thinking about getting the Toon-XP theme, Carbonix skin and the Orion icons. If I do this will that also help in supporting the site? I want to do what I can to keep this site around.
Reply #228 Top
just a short warning: there has to be heavy moderation (far heavier than it is now) on those future individual pay skins.

besides the usual rips (you know how much some software companies as Apple will love to see somebody selling their designs) there is also the issue of selling fonts with skins. most freeware fonts are for non-commercial purposes only and i have also seen commercial fonts distributed in quite a few skins.

fonts is a serious business, done by real professionals with lawyers (not self-proclaimed professionals, that never got a foot into the graphics business for good reason), so just take care.

as an example Centurion by Skinplant comes with Fanklin Gothic Medium. thanks for that. saved me $21.

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/itc-franklin-gothic/
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Reply #229 Top
$0.02 Deposit About To Occur...

Been a OD subscriber for two years now i think...and will also renew as long as products advance as well as they have been over the last two years.

Bought my WC subcription the day the drive start..why cuase for the first time I realised they needed my help and I was more than happy to. I guess I am like many here...download loads...upload none...and rarely dip my toes into the messages boards for fear of looking stupid.

I would hate to see the site change but at the end of the day bills have to be paid. It is sorry to see that more average users like myself have not just stumped up the readies. I really thought 500 would be achieved in a few days.

There are a few things thay could help the drive...not to sure if possible but if they are would be a great help.

1) A non registered user should be presented with an ad page for the drive at the start and then directed onwards to the site. This would raise awareness out there.

2) The current skins provided to wc subscribers are pretty thin pickings...had it been pauls Christmas Theme ( full suite of icons and the work) that would have been a huge incentive for people to subscribe. Might push more like me to do it.

Just thoughts as they come to me...really hope the drive works.
Reply #230 Top
edited to but both posts into one.
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Reply #231 Top
Frogboy has some very valid concerns and the beginnings of some very good contingency plans. Some have voiced concerns about customers leaving if WC started charging for some things. I suspect the huge of majority of people leaving would be the 'give it all to me free' downloaders, which seems to be the biggest drain on the bandwidth. I don't think it would cause most of the people involved who support this community to leave.

I see nothing wrong with having a select set of WB's, Icon's, etc available for purchase, with a larger set still available for free. I would throw one more idea into the mix. Suppose some skinners were willling to let WC provide select skins as available to subscribers only? Not available for download. I'm thinking it could work something like this. Maybe every 3 months or so, a skin is selected to be a WC subscriber only skin to be provided to subscribers. Skinners would, in a sense, 'donate' the skin to WC for this purpose and would agree to not make it available anywhere else. It seems this would be a feather in the cap to be able to have provided/been chosen for a WC only exclusive. And subscribers would get an extra 4 skins a year not available to the general public.

Anyway, food for thought.

Reply #232 Top
Moshi: Well said and good points.
Reply #233 Top
I am not a rich man by any stretch of the imagination.
I am, however, in a professional job with a fair amount of "disposable income". I am personally willing to contribute a portion of my fortnightly wage, if it means this site will keep going. I realise that even that won't be doing much... but it will make me feel good, and would be my personal contribution to this great community. Hell, how many of us pay for a monthly subscription to various magazines etc? Or have the newspaper delivered daily? This is also disposable income. I would gladly cancel a few of my monthly subscriptions to magazines, and hand the money over here. I'm trying to think of other ways to raise funds at the moment too....
I have only been here for a short while, can't skin for the life of me, but I've certainly done my share of downloading (and posting.... yeah some of you know how overzealous I've been with that!) I am already a SDC subscriber, and will also follow suit with the drive for the new servers, but I certainly feel that there's a little more I can do.
Frogboy, what's the score on this? Will you set up a way for us to donate/contribute funds? Whatever method you choose to do this..... count me in.

Eric.




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Reply #234 Top

"as an example Centurion by Skinplant comes with Fanklin Gothic Medium. thanks for that. saved me $21"


It came as default with XP, so I had no idea it was shareware when I used it.



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Reply #235 Top
when i get my credit cards paid off u know how it is this time of year and having a birthday on the 21st of this month ill pay for a sub and buy object i only have bought icon packager & windowblinds but will purchase a 2 year thingy i dont wanna see this site go down ohhh btw can u make donations say via thru paypal ??
Reply #236 Top
The plan is simple, offer a few skins with each version of Stardock Product to use for free.
If you want to Upload/Download more from WC, buy a subscription for the Browser.
Visitors can visit and look, ask questions ect.
But the free Download ride is over.


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Reply #237 Top
If PayPal is not a complete option to use for donations...I am not sure if they get a pecentage or not...Give us the option to use credit/debit cards to donate. Just a thought



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Reply #238 Top
If PayPal is not a complete option to use for donations...I am not sure if they get a pecentage or not...Give us the option to use credit/debit cards to donate. Just a thought


For an account as large as this one would probably be, Paypal would take 2.2% + $0.30 USD to 2.9% + $0.30 USD for each donation. (Depends on the amount of the donation I believe.)
Reply #239 Top
There are some issues I see with on line donations which give some pause in figuring out which would be best...

I still think that KarmaGirls (Angie's) contest would be the way to go about it because it would not be a direct donation to the site which could prompt some hectic accountant conversations to say the least. Also there would not be the percentage off the top taken from the donation by the service it is run through...

It will take a little time to figure out the site donation question and KarmaGirl is working on it I am sure and will let people know when things come together.

On another note....

I can tell you this much for those wondering just how expensve high end servers (not make your own out of the box which would never meet the same level of fault tolerence, ability to meet the present needs and future needs and have the room for expansion when the time comes about or in other words " ROI ") can be.

We are now gathering quotes for a IBM pSeriesRS6000 and the mean base for the quotes is $55,0000. This server runs AIX and hosts Medical Manager for a number of remote Client's on different networks in different states along the East Coast. But I am betting that it will not see anymore more traffic over a four year period (which is the length of the service contract: $269.00 a month) than the servers for this site. Even though it will be up and running 24/7/365.

Serious Enterprise Networking costs some serious money....

BTW: anyone know of a IBM Certified VAR we might want to consider getting a quote from?


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Reply #240 Top
have you looked into dell servers? hmmmmm...
Reply #241 Top
Dell won't fit the bill...

AIX <----

At this point my wife just told me we are looking at a total cost of $90,000. Guess she decided to go with someone and we'll go over it when she get's home fomr the meeting in Tampa from the Data Center rep's.

anyway...



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Reply #242 Top
So I'm wondering how *I* fit into this community scheme. Skins are something that are mildly entertaining, but I only go hunting for some once every few months or so.

I visit Wincustomize about three or four times a year, and the Winamp skin forums about twice a year. Should people like me lose the ability to find skins (behind a commercial cost barrier) the few times we want them?

I'm all for, and extremely supportive of, community but the truth is that you guys have created a centralized repository to house your community. That costs money and it's not really my problem where and how you come up with it.

I have two proposed solutions:

1. Put a cap on visits (and/or downloads) per year for those who haven't subscribed. If I used Wincustomize more often, I'd be happy to pay. But if I only visit once in awhile I don't feel I should have to pay to keep the whole site running - most of which is stuff I'm not interested in.

2. I've brought this up before, and was pooh-pooh'd for it, but I really don't see why some kind of distributed community network couldn't be set up - especially with all the work being done with regards to web services. Each skinner could house their skins on their own site, while Wincustomize could be simply a springboard for helping people find those skins. You could even distribute the springboard, with different community servers/webmasters handling the load for different categories, or different times of the day, or...
Reply #243 Top
They can pay their internet bill but cannot pay for a subscription?


The world's not quite that simplistic.

1. If we're talking about younger people (as the post you quoted is), they're not paying their Internet bill - their parents are.

2. Libraries, school labs, work computers, etc. Not paying for their Internet bill.

3. I'm a computer professional. Internet access is high on the bill priority list. So, yes, I can pay that. I have to if I want to stay in the industry. A skinning site subscription isn't even in the same ballpark.
Reply #244 Top
I've read most of this thread with interest, and generally accept that it costs a lot of money to run a site such as WC, but I'm not sure I like the approach suggested by FrogBoy to charge for some skins. I personally think there are a few problems with the approach suggested - here me out, I'm going somewhere with this.

- For the most part I'm only interested in Icons and WindowBlinds and don't want to pay $3.50 (or even 50% of that) for a suite of which I'm not going to use half of.
- Personally, I'm not to keen on the idea of charging $1 to my credit card at a time, and having to pay for a currency conversion everytime as well (UK).
- FrogBoy has already mentioned that the credit companies charge an amount that makes small transactions less cost effective.
- A lot of people here are not keen on PayPal as an alternative.

However, as I said above, I appreciate that running such a site costs money and something might have to be done. To be honest I'm the sort of person that doesn't really want to pay for a subscription as it currently stands (I have bought OD though), mainly because I don't see any benefit for myself (sorry, just human nature). However, can I suggest a scheme that even I would be willing to pay for.

Allow the subscribers to purchase premium skins on the basis of credits. As a subscriber you can make a transaction to buy a number of credits (1 credit = $1 or 50c ?) which are associated with your WC account. The amount of credits you buy would be entirely down to you. I would guess most people would by in quantities of $5 or $10, meaning that Stardock get penalised less from the credit card companies (first plus point). Each skin, or even each aspect of a skin is then costed in terms of credits. For instance an Icon set costs 1 credit while a windowblinds skin costs 2 credits. Subscribers can then buy whatever parts of a premium skin they want, using their bank of credits. This way I get charged for less currency conversions, and I get to pick the part of the skins I actually want. Another bonus of this, is that people will stop relating the credits to money (after they've bought them), and will be more willing to make purchases. Obviously, once the credits have been used up more need to be purchased, but I bet people would continue to use up credits quickly once each initial purchase has been made.

Non-subscribers could still pay $3.50 for all I care. The benefit of subscribing would then be the ability to manage what you buy more efficently.

Just my 2 pence worth (which after conversion charges would be about $3.00 )

Jason



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Reply #245 Top
dodgerWA, your post is a good promotion for the skin pricing structure Brad mentioned where skinners opt in to have a small price applied to a skin and the site gets a percentage...

A very good one...

Distributed Networking will not work for a number of reasons. The biggest reason is it would cause any number of servers from the distributed community to be shut down for over extending bandwidth use...

Or just serve to put a number of people in the same position this site finds itself in...


Reply #247 Top
Non-subscribers could still pay $3.50 for all I care. The benefit of subscribing would then be the ability to manage what you buy more efficently.Just my 2 pence worth (which after conversion charges would be about $3.00 )Jason


frankly Non-Subscribers should have the chance to check things out, hit their limit and decide upon subscribing or not. If not then be switched to a access which does in fact have the pay as you download schema applied.

I edited out the "Off the Top" part because it had to do with credit card service fees and not what some people will comapline are WinCustomize service fee's even though that is what would be keeping the site alive in part...
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Reply #248 Top
In many ways that makes a lot of sense.You could still offer full suites at a discount over individual pieces.Allowing people to add credit to an account rather than making them pay for each individual selection is a good option.
Reply #249 Top
Never forget tho...non-subscribers need enough access to the skins to promote a desire to continue using and buy the products or no need for more skins.
Reply #250 Top
As you say, non-subscribers need enough to encourage the community. I think the ideas already suggested about reducing the cap limit and having to purchase whole suites at a higher cost could be worked into that though.

Actually, another idea I've just had. May be it would be possible to limit what skins the general public can actually download. At the end of each week, or when the ratings for a skin can be used as a guage, any new skins are tagged as publicly downloadable or not. This tag is based on the rating of the skin and the percentage of skins submitted that week with that rating. So for instance 10% of skin rated 10 are made available, 15% rated 9, 20% rated 8 and so on. Non-subscribers would still be able to see ALL the skins (and know what they're missing out on) but only download a limited amount. Also, if they can't download the ones they want, it might be another encouragement to subscribe.




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