Frogboy Frogboy

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

96,026 views 522 replies
Reply #176 Top
kona, are you bi-polar or have some other mental handicap? There must be something wrong with you. How else can you piss so many people off so quickly. Give your fingers a break and in so doing you'll be giving us all a break.



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Reply #177 Top
Kona, that little guy inside your head has become inebriated
Reply #178 Top
Braniac just proved my point. If he has the option to sell skins, why wouldn't he? Why should he make them for free? That type of thinking is likely to carry over with the rest of the authors...if the option is made so easily available...what do they have to lose? I don't mind spending $5 here, $8 there...but I would HATE having to pay for each skin I download...

But I don't think Froboy meant for us to take it so literally...as I'm quite sure there would be more planning involved covering up loose ends...I'm just trying to get the point across that I would very much dislike the paying-per-download thing...
Reply #179 Top
Perhaps we shouldnt pick on you Kona...you just make it so darn easy.
Reply #180 Top
kona, are you bi-polar or have some other mental handicap?


Actually I suffer from ADD. And I have no health care so no meds.

I will take a break. For everyone's sake.

And for the record, I DO care what happens to this site.
Reply #181 Top
Hey Hus...pass the popcorn.....



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Reply #182 Top
No personal attack intended, but it's a little tasteless that someone would download and acquire skins/designs from another website and then come and comment about the ways downloads and distribution of skins/designs are been handled here.
If a person is getting the work from some place else, what is the need to even comment about anything in regards to this particular topic?
Reply #183 Top
Hus...It wouldnt be all skins,I STILL would make some for free...you say you dont mind paying here or there,so which skins do I get paid for ?
.I had in mind something along the lines of if I produced a WB but nothing to go with it,it would be free...but if a skin was good enough to warrant the full suite treatment ,then it would be a 'premium' skin.

.Kinda along the lines of "well this skin looks like it will rate an 8,so I will finish it and upload it to the free stuff."

.or "gee,I think this one would go at least a 9,I think I'll make suite of it"
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Reply #184 Top
If a person is getting the work from some place else, what is the need to even comment about anything in regards to this particular topic?


well because maybe soon I will be sticking to Windowblinds and do not want to pay for my downloads. But I will if I have to I guess. Style XP dosen't do everything I want it to as windowblinds does.

But you are right, my comments and/or opinions are not needed here nor appreciated.
Reply #185 Top
Kona, can't you get some sort of state aid?

Maybe that "No" state sales tax you brag about isn't such a good bargin.
Reply #186 Top
yrag...my popcorn is labled wrong...



Some Milk Duds perhaps?
Reply #187 Top
Oooh, I love milk duds...

Care to share some?

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Reply #188 Top
Kona if you've bought ANY Stardock product,you dont even have to worry about paying for skins.This is about subscriptions,stardock customers and freeloaders.We're only talking about paying for 'some ' skins.
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Reply #189 Top
Oh man! You had to whip-out the Duds! Yummmmm
Reply #190 Top
Kona, can't you get some sort of state aid?


Yes I can. We have the Oregon State Health Plan. I have applied, and I am waiting.

When I have my meds I am a completly different person.

Back To Topic!
Reply #191 Top
Right now I would jump at the chance to get 25 cents for a few hundred or few thousand dl's,I just ate my last can of soup.(I still have one package of microwave popcorn). Oh well,back to work on that new WB(doubt if this one would sell,its too crazy looking...(hehe)
[Message Edited]
Reply #192 Top
/me throws a case of Top Ramon at IR
Reply #193 Top
hehe Thanks China! crunch crunch crunch....huh? Oh....your supposed to add water and heat them first.
Reply #194 Top
I know someone that eats it like that.
Reply #195 Top

If you implement ANY of that stuff you might as well shut down this site because you are going to lose ALOT of visitors and customers and business.

They will start going to other sites instead.

Which sites? Which sites could handle the traffic of this site? Skinbase? Deskmod is already gone. Customize.org? ThemeXP? Please.

I wish I had an exact traffic data of those sites. Suffice to say that WinCustomize requires more bandwidth than all of those sites combined and then some.  Even deviantART couldn't pick up the load.

This isn't hubris, this is just mathematical fact: If WinCustomize, subsidized by Stardock already, can't pay its bills, how exactly does one envision a Skinbase or a Skinz.org to pay its bills? 

Jark (deviantART) could tell you what I'm telling you: It's about scaling. It's one thing to run a site that gets 150,000 visitors per month.  You can pay a lot of that out of pocket even and the rest from ads and such. 

Or more to the point: A hobbiest skin site with relatively low traffic may only cost $200 a month.  From ads and "core user" support maybe $100 comes in. The other $100 is paid for by the admin.

But when a site grows to getting MILLIONS of users per month and costs $10,000 per month and subscriptions, ads, etc. only pay for say $3,000 of it per month, that other $7,000 has to come from somewhere.  Here on WinCustomize, that $7,000 or so comes from Stardock.

Then you have the hardware. Again: Scaling comes into play.  A Skinbase or Deskmod or Skinz.org or whatever can be run on one or two computers of varying age.  When you get a couple million visitors each month like WinCustomize or deviantART now you're talking needing serious rack mounted servers to get the job done.

Then you have the coding. On a small hobbiest site you can get away with sloppy database coding, using MySQL (I know, some people can use MySQL for big projects but that's a different topic), imperfect scripting.

On a mega database driven site, you have to do all kinds of tricks which requires immense amount of IT work.

Remember when our server went down and we directed people (just linked) to a few other sites? Some of them got shut down because of that.  One time we linked to Pixtudio from home page and their ISP cut them off in hours (the result is that they had to move to a different ISP).

No Kona, those users would find that their alternatives are not what they think because they would quickly run into the problems we did.

Besides that fact, at the end of the day, people who use the site without contributing anything to it are not really crucial to the community.

There are thousands of people here who have downloaded GIGABYTES of stuff. There are probably countless more who have downloaded gigabytes that we don't know.

As for the timing of the subscription drive - we didn't choose the time. The two servers dying chose the time.  Stardock is currently hosting WinCustomize on its own servers.  The result is that Stardock loses money because ALL of its sites are significantly slower.  Does the average Drengin.net user or Galactic Civilizatoiins player or ControlCenter user even know what WinCustomize is? Probably not, they just know everything is more sluggish.

That's why in January, one way or the other, the site is going to get those new servers. Either Stardock will pay for them or WinCustomize subscribers will. If it's the latter, then things will move as they always have. But if it's the former, there will be changes since it'll be a clear sign that the current model of business for this site just isn't sustainable.

Reply #196 Top
OK I was mistaken. I understand the problem now. I will try hard to do my part, what ever part that will be.
Reply #197 Top

Ok please explain to me because I have this for a while. This is a skinning community but when I look at the library and the top dl section most are stardock programs. So really to me I think this a Stardock's skinning community. As for Themexp.org I think their traffic is a lot higher than WC(based on # of DL),and yeah they do have more ads than WC. But Ive never heard of any "premium subscription" in there, how can a community like that can survive?

1st, ThemeXP doesn't get anywhere near WinCustomize's traffic. Its downloads are higher because of the way they count downloads. On WinCustomize, only verifiably completed downloads count as a download. That's because we have top downloading lists and such. Before we implemented full download verification, we used to have skins that would get zillions of downloads really fast too and that was before we were anywhere near as popular as we are now. But if that's not good enough, you can always use Alexa. If you go purely on downloads of something, then you'd think that deviantART isn't popular at all even though it should be obvious it's immensely busy. But there are other ways too you can tell the download counts on themexp are hozed (Besides Greg having said that the downloadd counts on his site aren't accurate other than as a comparison against other skins on the same site). For example, one msstyle that allegedly has 34,000 downloads in ONE day only has ONE comment. Can you imagine a skin only getting one comment if 34,000 peole had downloaded it? Of course not.

2nd, ThemeXP is just a TGT Soft portal in case that was lost on you. You can get wallpapers, boot screens, logons, and msstyles. That's it. I must have missed the sections for Litestep, Sysmetrix, Media Player, Winamp, etc. over there.

3rd, if you think this is a "Stardock" site, then you have no idea what you're talking about. But it may turn out that you will get to find out what a Stardock WinCustomize is like because it may be arranged.

Reply #198 Top

and so it begins...

if they start chargeing for everything, they will lose customers.

Where was it said taht "they" will be charging for everything? The proposed solution was that top skin authors who had Journeyman access could optionally make their skins availalbe for sale.  Virtually all the skins here would be free still (99%). But there would be a helluva lot more premium skins than there are currently. (i.e. instead of 0.01% it would be 1% - 100X difference).

Reply #199 Top
look all this bickering isnt doing a thing to help WC. all its doing is making this site look bad ...theres been very good points for both sides of the problem..we all must agree that sum thing will be done and not everyone will be happy. my sugestion is simply add more premium skins to the subscribers area, drop the bandwidth for non subscribers,sell premium suites. i dont think selling individual skins will do much but drive away customers.that and the book work for a dollar sale isnt cost effective ...id keep the site the way it is mainly but, just change some of the paramaters of being a member / user...
Reply #200 Top

Well here is the way I see it:

If you go to a department store like say Target and buy a DVD for 10 bucks, you are happy with the purchase and go home happy.

You then go back a few months later and Target has raised the price to 20 bucks when another stoer has 2 for 20 bucks.

Point being, you start charging for things here and I PROMISE this site will fail. I myself will not pay for skins when I can find them elsewhere for free. Maybe that is why I do not download them here.

Kona, you are just amazing. I'll just leave it at that. Where are these other sites you speak of? Maybe if tehre were more "super stores" we wouldn't have these massive costs.

I personally find the ThemeXP comparison amusing. They have what? 5 libraries? Hey, let's eliminate all but 5 libraries. Let's see, we'll keep WindowBlinds, DesktopX, IconPackager, ObjectBar, and Suites. Jetison the rest. Is that your solution Kona?

ThemeXP is not anywhere near as popular as WinCustomize. The only site, taht has skins, that has as much (or more) traffic than WinCustomize is deviantART. And guess what? They have the same issues.

If people are too cheap to help the site replace 2 servers that crashed. 2 servers that provide free service to millions then why the hell should Stardock or WinCustomize care what non-subscribers think? Let them go and flood the other sites.

WinCustomize doesn't exist to simply get traffic. It exists to serve skins in a way that is sustainable. IF the current system isn't sustainable, a different one needs to be found.