Thoughts on updates to Sins I systems

A bit late to the party on this, however I thought I'd put forward my thoughts on systems/design choices from Sins I that could be updated in the sequel. Most of this isn't focused on big sweeping changes, moreso on smaller adjustments I believe would improve the look and feel of the game, without changing its heart.

Most of this is based on observations of feedback from a decade or more ago regarding Sins I, as well as design lessons that can be taken from other games in the genre. I've split this into a few categories for easier readability (I am unfortunately a bit verbose), but there is some overlap between them.

 

Faction Asymmetry:

One area I would like to see updates to, and I've seen others suggest as well, is asymmetry between the factions. While the factions in Sins I did play differently, especially towards the late game, it didn't always feel like they did - especially early game and in lower tier play. Probably the best renowned RTS for its faction asymmetry, as well as one of the most popular, would be Starcraft II. Some thoughts for improving asymmetry from comparing Sins I to SC2:

Faction differences should start from the beginning of the game. In Sins I, the two main early game differences most players would note is the different capital ship options, and the Vasari scout's ability to cap neutral extractors. Beyond this, all races start off with the same basic options, and similar initial gameplans. In Starcraft, the very act of building your first structure is handled differently between each race, with the Terrans taking a worker full time to sit and build the structure, the Protoss placing a structure with a worker that then builds itself, and the Zerg transforming their worker into a structure. Other differences only continue from there, with different early unit comps, expansion timings, scouting methods and more. In Sins II it would be nice to similarly see early differentiators between the races; different scouting methods, different early ship purposes, different expansion goals and rates, and similar. The late game differences were always much more apparent, but it feels much more impactful having earlier differences too.

One of the other major factors that led to the Sins I races feeling very similar on the surface was the uniformity of options available to each race, at least until late game (And improved a lot with expansions). Every race had the same breakdown of frigates, cruisers and battleships, as well as most of their structures also being the same. This led to less unique thoughts for each faction like "My enemy is focusing on strike craft, I'll build [Faction specific counter]", and more generic thoughts like "My enemy is building strike craft, I'll build some flak frigates". Having a unique set of ship and structure purposes for each race would help differentiate them significantly. Along with this naturally comes having unique compositions and strategies throughout the game on how to handle your opponents.

One thing Sins I did well late game, especially with the expansions, was the factions having unique capabilities that the other factions did not. The Vasari being able to see all movement on the whole phase lane network, create their own network to ignore phase lane limitations, and add an enemy planet to it while disabling all their fleets and defences (Not even mentioning moving starbases, or being able to abandon planets completely) played and felt very different to the TEC's more restricted movement, but much tougher defences and ability to outright kill enemy planets without invading, while having constant rebellions annoy enemy factions. Keeping and expanding these factors I think is a must to keep factions feeling different into the lategame.

As just brief note, balancing asymmetric play can be difficult. The main way Starcraft seems to accomplish it, from patchnotes, meta and changes with updates, is a focus on tightly controlled timings in the early-mid game, with the late game being more traditionally balanced. Knowing what plays and counter plays each faction has against each other, a control of timings ensures that for any play one player makes, the other will always be able to make the appropriate counter play if they have adequate game knowledge and awareness of what their opponent is doing, and places more of a focus on both execution of the play and counter-play, as well as strategic decision making of which plays to make, allowing the incomparable options between factions to not be directly weighed against each other - only what those options can actually achieve.

Some very unpolished examples regarding this: The TEC may scout with dedicated ships, the advent with culture, and the Vasari with their phase lane technology. This would lead to very different approaches on how to get information for each race. Tech trees might also be different, with something like the Vasari having a very wide, but not very deep, tech tree - as they're near the pinnacle of technology already. Maybe they focus on improving specific structures and ships directly, rather than sweeping improvements to all ships and structures like the TEC with their newer military tech would need. Similarly, perhaps with their nanites, the Vasari only have one type of shipyard, that constructs all ship types at differing rates and volumes; 4 frigates, 2 cruisers or 1 capital ship could be built simultaneously. While obviously requiring more thought, things like this would lead to the individual races feeling quite different to each other in how they play.

 

Game Feel:

4X and RTS are genres that usually focus on opposite ends of the strategic scale, and Sins I did an excellent job of handling the user experience issues that arise from trying to bridge the gap between the genres. Many of these also added into the feel and fantasy of commanding an interstellar empire and its fleets, especially the fleet system and empire tree. With 15 years since these systems were developed, Sins II can be made better by incorporating newer advancements, and options tech may not have allowed for at the time.

First up, a quick look at the Empire Tree. This is a key feature in Sins 1 that allowed the player to easily see detailed information from across a wide empire at a glance, no matter their current focus or visual scale. At the time, and to this day, not many games had something similar, however games like Stellaris and the newer Terra Invicta have a similar bar to keep this information visible to the player. Honestly I don't think there's a ton that needs changing here, however minor improvements were added by each game. Stellaris ordered and categorised entries in the 'outliner' bar between different types of pinned object, and Terra Invicta added filters to be able to only display certain types of objects at any given time. These help the player focus on the most relevant information they're looking for at the time, and would help declutter the empire tree in the late game.

One area the pacing was a bit off in Sins I for me was in fleet battles. These could go on for a LONG time, especially when one force didn't vastly overpower the other in the late game. Individual battles of 20-30 minutes weren't necessarily uncommon, and early game a fight against an evenly matched opponent could take 5ish minutes to complete. Some level of slower fighting is needed to allow players to also manage their empire, rather than keep focused on the fight, however I'd keep early game fights to 1-2 minutes, mid game to 5-10, and late game huge fights to 10-15 minutes. Plenty of time for decision making, especially compared to the 30 second or so battles in something like Starcraft, but not quite as long as in Sins I. As part of this, I'd have especially capital ship active abilities have a high immediate impact, but on a longer cooldown. This allows a momentary shift of focus to use or respond to the ability, and then breathing room to focus on something else, while also making the abilities feel powerful and fun to use.

I also think some of the early game 4X gameplay could be sped up a bit. Planet garrisons were one of five or so factors restricting the player's ability to set up colonies and expand. While for certain key planets they provide a nice risk/reward decision for early expansion, there are also a lot of times where they're more just busywork than adding anything at a strategic layer. For major points of interest on a map, I'd keep them, however I'd otherwise skip them on unimportant planets like dead asteroids, or where another factor like technology is the major influence delaying colonisation.

Something that feeds off a different gamespeed is the intuitiveness of counters. Sins I did help players a bit here with outright stating counters in tooltips, however also important is having a counter feel like an impactful counter. In Sins I, a semi-common noob mistake I saw was the idea that TEC flak frigates are the best frigate for them, due to the high health, ok armour, and high potential DPS from 4 weapons. This intuition, however, is wrong. Because of hidden damage multipliers against different armour types. Longer battles hid this information better from players, with the DPS not being as easily visible to a player compared with quicker battles. This is also a similar situation to the Arc Emitter weapon in early Stellaris; it was listed as having 100% bypass of all defences, with middling but highly variable damage. This lead many to believe it was the best weapon in the game. In reality, it was one of the worst against anything but evasion; it made up only a small part of a ship's overall DPS, meaning all its damage bypasses except evasion were quickly outpaced by the rest of the ship's damage, and became pointless. Far more intuitive is the likes of the immortal from Starcraft II. Intended as an anti-armour unit, its attacks will knock out half a low-tiered armoured units health instantly, while doing little against an unarmoured unit. Similarly, its shields block large damage values common to armoured attackers, but do nothing against low damage fast attacks common to unarmoured units. Intuitively, the way the unit feels to use matches its intended meta use.

As a quick broad UI note, while I don't agree with all of the ideas or execution, some of the UI ideas explored here would be nice to see done properly in Sins II. Particularly the ability for the player to pre-set their faction's icon, portrait and colours in the profile (As well as the semi-custom nature of having different individuals and backgrounds available to make a composite portrait for personalisation), as well as the idea of a dynamic UI where parts of it will not be obstructing the screen unless a relevant unit/object is focused or selected by the player, and having both a map splash image, as well as the ability to see the layout of a map from the match hosting screen, rather than needing to open galaxy editor or actually play on the map to know its layout.

Finally, a common wishlist item for many back in early Sins was for more dynamic looking battles. Strike Craft and eventually Corvettes flew around the battlefield and made it look dynamic and interesting, however all other ships tended to sit in a blob/wall and shoot as a firing line at their opponents. More motion, and a greater range differential should be added to combat IMO. This adds more visual interest, and makes the fight feel more like a space fight, while also giving greater purpose to the side weapons of various ship types. Not everything should move similar to fighters, however a mix of different weapon ranges and speeds could result in a much more dynamic looking and feeling combat without needing the same fancy manoeuvres. I'll touch on this more in the next section, but some more movement and less firing lines in combat would be nice.

 

Combat:

Segwaying off the previous point, there were positives and negatives to combat in Sins I that I think could be iterated on to make combat look and feel more dynamic, while addressing some of the more boring or frustrating aspects that could arise in Sins I.

First off, combat ranges and speed. Increasing the size of gravity wells, and giving ships a greater variety in weapon ranges and speeds would result in more tactical considerations in a fight, with range and speed playing a more than marginal role, as well as adding visual interest to fights - helping with both quick readability and avoiding the 'static blob of ships' look that happened to larger Sins fights. I would envision a front line, mid line, and rear line. Front Line would be close combat ships like Light and Heavy frigates in Sins 1, meant to attack the enemy and focus down specific targets. Mid line would be screening ships, meant to protect the rear line and prevent the front line from breaking through, as well as some close combat support ships. Rear line is for your glass cannons like LRMs, as well as other support ships. Give a solid visual gap between each line, allowing time for reactions to movement between the lines, as well as to give a solid advantage to longer ranged ships. I would also have especially the combat capital ships have weapons with different ranges; short, medium, and long, and a range setting to choose where the capital ship would choose to fight. Engaging at the front lines would provide a large boost to DPS, but also leave the capital ship vulnerable due to a slow speed to withdraw if needed. Sitting it in the back lines it wouldn't add a lot of DPS to the fight, however would also be protected with opposing LRMs not being able to breach the front line of battle to attack it, and being closer to a phase lane if it needs to retreat. This would make how much you commit your capital ships to a fight an important decision to make, with the broader changes to range and speed providing an more easily readable battle with visually distinct groupings of ship types/purposes, and would add more movement into the battle as the front line constantly moves to focus specific targets or try to breach the mid line, while the mid-line would have slower ships that would take longer to position, and may need to reposition to respond to changes in the front line. Moving ships like capital ships between lines as they need to retreat or advance would also add visual interest, without needing all ships to fly as unpredictably as fighters or corvettes.

Something else that would be nice to see altered a bit is the alpha strike potential of strike craft. While highly expensive and impractical in competitive games, if a large enough stack of strike craft is gathered, they are able to one shot pretty much anything in a single flyby, while taking no economic damage as a cost - potentially just some time to rebuild a couple of bombers. This... isn't really fun, especially when the prime targets for such a strike are the capital ships a player has spent the whole game levelling up, and they are dead before being able to act. With their long range and high speed, they're also able to do this as a hit-and-run technique, dealing a lot of damage without engaging the enemy. Even if not an optimal strategy, the pain of the alpha strikes is not fun to deal with. I'd rather see strike craft become more of a long ranged, sustained low damage option. Something that chips away at an enemy before and during a fight, but isn't practical as a hit and run or alpha strike technique. Honestly, probably the only thing that can achieve this is penalising focus fire. Sins I did a pretty good job of this with shield mitigation, however some tweaks to further incentivise spreading out a fleet's firepower may be warranted. Removing the incentive to fully focus fire both makes battles look more visually interesting, allows casting and 'hero' units like capital ships to be used and not instantly die, and allows for a player to shift their focus from the fight to address the 4X side of gameplay easier, without worrying that an important ship could be focused and quickly killed while their attention is away.

A final consideration would be to make armour more than just a HP multiplier. One change that greatly improves the intuitiveness of battles is to reduce the number of armour types and weapon damage types to much lower numbers, removing a lot of hidden values that determine the effectiveness of one unit against another. This can lead to a homogenisation of combat units, however, as there is less they're able to differentiate themselves with. Different defence type behaviours, rather than damage multipliers, adds more natural differentiating factors, without hiding the mechanics of them. One common example is having shields regenerate fairly rapidly, representing a DPS check that a fleet must pass to be able to at all damage an enemy ship, while armour is a damage reduction amount, presenting a burst damage check that the fleet must pass as well. This means low damage high fire rate weapons are great against shields, but weak against armour, while high damage low fire rate weapons are the opposite. I don't know if this is how armour should be treated in Sins, however treating it differently than just a multiplier for ship HP makes a ship's actual durability more easily readable for players (No need for a somewhat complex calculation to understand a ship's actual effective HP), while allowing for more behaviour based counters, rather than combat multiplier based counters.

 

Campaign:

The last thing I wanted to very briefly touch on is the idea of a campaign for Sins II. This is a widely popular request, and matches market data that the majority of RTS (And probably 4X) players focus on single player offerings, rather than multiplayer. I have seen that there are no plans for a campaign in Sins II at launch, however this may be something to consider for an expansion.

One factor that was raised regarding a campaign is wanting players to be able to have their own stories, rather than there being one official story of this war that is cannon. I do think this is an important factor of the game that would be good to maintain. One way to achieve this while having a campaign would be to have a campaign similar to Offworld Trading Company, the Total War games, Rise of Legends, Battlestar Galactica; Deadlock, or the old Star Wars Battlefront II galactic conquest game mode.

Put simply, the campaign offers a strategic map, with the player being given a strategic goal based on what their faction is (TEC Loyalists: Defend the core worlds, achieve peace without letting them fall. TEC Rebels; regain all lost territory. Vasari Rebels: Escape to the other end of TEC space while allied to at least 1 faction from each race. Vasari Loyalists: Cannot ally other races, escape to far side of TEC space. Advent Loyalists: Subjugate TEC core worlds and main Vasari fleets. Advent Rebels: Defeat Advent Loyalists and reach a peace with other factions), but otherwise not having a set story to follow. Instead, the campaign serves as a source of official lore on certain locations and individuals within a faction, as well as providing a more in-depth 4X gameplay mode to connect individual normal gameplay skirmishes.

Depending on much work was to be put into this style of a campaign, the results could be quite different. On the lower end, you'd have a basic map of the territories being fought over, with the ability to move fleets to set regions with some lore tidbits for players to take interest in and start a normal Sins II match in those systems. On the higher effort end, you could have more in-depth conversion taking many of the 4X elements (Diplomacy, technology, planet development, fleet production) out of the skirmish battles, and either splitting it between the 4X campaign map and local maps, or transfering it entirely to the 4X map, with open ended quest chains for each faction (More as a guide on how to win the campaign, rather than set story beats), lore for both systems and some characters that could be used as advisors or fleet captains/region governors/faction leaders, and some unique maps that explore concepts and scenarios that may be novel for the occasional playthrough, but would otherwise be frustrating in a normal Sins match (Like a planet that disconnects from the phase network entirely due to orbits for a period of time; frustrating in a competitive match, could be more interesting as an isolated scenario).

This would address at least some of the desires of those looking for a campaign (More lore, the ability to lead the whole war, rather than isolated skirmishes, some connection between individual skirmises), without impeding the ability for them to tell their own story of the conflict through the gameplay.

7,397 views 3 replies
Reply #1 Top

Have you had a chance to play the Sins II tech preview yet?

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Yarlen, reply 1

Have you had a chance to play the Sins II tech preview yet?

I've been holding onto Windows 7 for as long as I can, so can't run the preview currently. Looks like this'll be what finally pushes me over the edge, but I've got to finish moving houses first and then look at migrating everything over to a new OS...

I have watched and read through a lot of material from the preview, however I tried to keep the references to Sins I gameplay since that's what I have direct experience with. Its also why I haven't touched on most of the newer systems like dynamic planet movements, ship upgrade system, or changes to the turret tracking systems, as I can't properly address them - though most of what I've seen and read so far in this regard seems good

Without having first hand experience, how what I've seen/read so far for Sins II reflects on my thoughts in the OP:

Campaign and Faction Assymetry can't be commented on currently as there is only one race, and no campaign planned for release.

Gamefeel

Hard to comment on without direct experience. Combat seems to have been sped up, and attacks seem to have a heftier impact, making their effects more immediately visible. This is probably good, but I can't really say without actually playing around with it.

Combat is slightly more dynamic. Flight patterns of strike craft seem to have been smoothed out a bit which is nice, missiles flying through combat is good, and combat capital ships are optimally used when maneouvring to keep their turrets able to fire, and get into position to dodge/tank missile salvos. Beyond this it still seems to suffer a bit from the static firing lines and blob of ships issues. Its a little bit more chaotic as ships seem more randomly scattered, rather than ensuring they're evenly spaced in formation, but that may be because there isn't a fleet system yet. There doesn't seem to be a lot of movement of ships in combat outside of strike craft and corvettes, and battle lines kind of just blend into each other - LRMs can usually be sighted at the back of the formation, and light frigates near the front, but other ships kind of just become a blob, and even the LRMs and light frigates can get caught in the blob at times, being less visually distinct. It is where amplifying the range differences between ships would unblob the ships a bit more, and make more visually distinct battle ranges that are more easily readable in a battle. It may also help spread battles out more, giving more reason for shorter range ships to move, making the battles look more dynamic.

4X pacing is hard to judge from videos and descriptions. Being a longer term component of the game, and based around strategising and decision making, you kind of have to be in control to get any sort of feel on it IMO.

Intuitiveness of counters is also going to be hard to judge. Moving away from % damage modifiers and to unique ship/weapon properties is a good start on this front, however its hard to tell how distinct each ship feels without playing around with them, and without having full statistics and mechanics to calculate the performance of ships, and then an environment to test them, can't really comment on whether what a surface glance at a ship's stats says about its role matches to how it actually performs.

UI is mixed ATM. Dynamic UI is nice, though not been able to control I haven't been able to tell what its limits are and all its permutations. This is also obviously an early iteration of the UI, with a lot of assets still in use from Sins I, or in a basic state, or very basic layout, so there's not a ton that can really be said here yet. UI feels like something to pay more attention to in Beta, rather than tech preview.

 

Combat

Easier to give comments on, though of course without any balance passes, full mechanic and stat availability, or direct experience, all this comes with a hefty tablespoon of salt.

Addressed ranges and speeds above, same still applies. I think combat would be both more readable and more interesting with a greater emphasis on different ship ranges and speeds - it adds another factor that will help clearly differentiate ships, and have them feel different to use. With very similar ranges and speeds, these two become minor factors that don't play a big part in a battle, rather than something you notice and think about for different ships.

Alpha Strike potential of strike craft seems like its going to be very dependent on both the raw damage numbers on strike craft, and shield mitigation values on Cap ships. If a single bomber deals similar damage to Sins I (And it has a higher DPS so it may well deal more), then you're only going to need 300 bombers to instantly kill a Sins II capital ship, or about 60 squadrons if we're still looking at 5 bombers per squadron. Early mid game that's a lot. Late game that's nothing. A similar concern arises with other bulk ships, with the focus-fire reduction of shield mitigation gone. What happens if late game I have 100 Javelis focus fire a Kol? Instant death isn't very fun. Javelis can be hard countered by Garda point defence currently, but if the advent anti-capital ship uses beam weapons, point defence won't save a capital ship from instant annihialation. Either extreme care needs to be taken in how weapons are designed so that cap ship instant kills aren't possible (Because they're really not fun), or we need some incentive to not focus fire. This could take many forms, but massive battles and 'hero' ships do lead to this sort of problem naturally. Potentially LoS blocking from other ships may help with this, but as the game gets to a stage where truly large battles become more common, its something I think should be looked at.

Armour wise, its an interesting choice having the shields be both the regenerating DPS check, and the damage-blocking burst check for defences, though it does work. Armour does thus become just a damage multiplier, however. This is somewhat ok, the bigger issue for me is the readability of the damage reduction. Seeing "200 Armour", without researching the formula and plugging in some numbers, as a player I have no idea what that means. I've got lots of armour, but what does it actually mean for how much damage I take. What is a meaningful amount, and a meaningful increase, in armour? From a glance the formula seems to be (100/(100 + Armour)) as a multiplier for the damage received, but that's not an immediately intuitive set of values to understand as a player. Some refinement to the formula and maths so its more easily readable in-game with 0 experience would be good, reducing a barrier to entry and some of the lower value complexity in the game.

I do also have concerns current values of shield mitigation as well though, possibly just because I don't have a file I can read through of all their stats yet. Sins 2 seems very similar to Sins I in that damage is almost always dealt as a larger single 'batch' of damage, rather than smaller damage values for each individual shot. If this is the case, current shield mitigation values aren't going to really impact a battle, and by normalising per-shot fire rates and damage with mainly a graphical difference, a lot of options for weapon differentiation disappear. Of course, without having a stat page for each ship that shows fire rate and damage, rather than just DPS, I can't tell if Sins II is like Sins I in this regard, or if fast firing weapons do actually fire more often with significantly lower damage shots. If the latter, then mitigation is probably at least close to fine. If it is still larger bursts of damage, this may need looking at.

The other new area to be slightly concerned about is missiles. In most games that employ physical missiles that can be shot down by PD missiles are god tier, except when your opponent has point defence saturation at which point they're worse than useless. This binary between absolutely amazing, and utterly useless, isn't fun, and destroys tactical choices. Once point defence becomes common, in most games you need to either focus exclusively on missiles, or completely ignore them - focusing exclusively may let you break through the point defence wall, and deal massive damage from high damage missiles, but if you don't focus 100% on missiles odds are you're not going to break through the point defence, and will deal no damage, meaning your money would have been better invested in literally anything else and you should not buy any missile ships. It is very hard to achieve a good balance with this sort of system, though on the face of it it is an interesting and fun system. The main way to deal with this I've seen are to heavily limit the range of point defence so it is impossible for a given volume to achieve point defence saturation. If a flak ship can defend itself, and up to 5 ships away from itself, it can provide flak cover for up to 1000 ships (10 left+right of it x 10 forward+back of it x 10 up+down from it). By the same token, that means 1000 ships can provide flak cover for it - which easily saturates the whole area and means no missile is ever going to get through. If it can provide flak cover for up to 2 ships away from it, its protecting only up to 64 ships, and only getting covered by 64 ships. If it can only cover up to one ship away, its only 8 ships worth of extra point defence to worry about. This is another reason to amplify the range differences between ships, and would encourage moving flak ships around the battle, creating a more dynamic battle, and help keeping missiles relevant in the game.

Not sure 100% how the balance there sits at the moment, but from what I've read a single garda can shut down a Javelis, so I'd hope the garda is the more expensive of the two at the very least. Alternatively this could be a point in faction assymmetry, with Javelis being weak against other TEC players due to strong point defence, however Advent and Vasari have weak point defence and are vulnerable to missiles, resulting in different builds being used in each faction matchup.

 

Once I am finally able to update and run the preview I'll be able to give feedback more specific to the current state of Sins II, and at that point it looks like Vasari will be available to play as well which will allow a proper comparison for faction assymetry.

Reply #3 Top

Well, I think most of your information is out of date now. Hopefully when you finally get to play yourself, you'll be pleasantly surprised. :)